Justifying cost of a complete glass panel.

[RobertGary1]

3 hours ago, PT20J said:

That’s what I’m trying to avoid by doing everything in one shot. We’ll see how it works out . The other reason is that I only want to tear it apart once and then I’m done.

Skip

I think you'll save a ton of time doing it in one shot. Ripping the panel out to bare wires isn't something you want to pay for multiple times.

-Robert

[kpaul]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

In the world of single pilot IFR, an autopilot is IMHO a necessity. Don't let the rhetoric of "real pilots don't need autopilots" sway you. Even in the majors, the majority of their flying is with the autopilot on and that is with two trained pilots on board and not Aunt Emma sitting in the co-pilot seat wanting to know why the light is blinking red. Having the ability to let George handle the flying while you are briefing an approach

Absolutely! In fact I fly a PC-12, single pilot on a Part 135 Certificate. One of the Companies OpSpecs from the FAA is that the autopilot is the "second" pilot.  We can't dispatch without it.

In my Mooney, I love having reliable glass instruments, a WAAS GPS and the latest and greatest autopilot.  No worries about a vac pump failure in IMC (once was enough), my ADI never suffers from an inability to become erect, and it's hard to argue against the usefulness of an autopilot while in IMC.

Training is the biggest investment that needs to happen after the upgrade is complete.  All the coolest toys can become a huge distraction in you don't know how to use them accurately and efficiently. 

[Dick Denenny]

You guys and gals are great. Thanks so much for the unbelievable input. Greatly appreciated. I don't have ADS-B so since I need to do this I'd like to do the "right" thing for all the rest of what I want. 

[carusoam]

23 hours ago, Dick Denennhy said:

Newbie here that just got a very nice M20E. Would love to put everything in this plane. Doesn't have autopilot, had older 430 nonwaas. How have you that have done it justify spending 25k plus on a 65k plane. I ask this because I want to. I can do it if I want but want to make the right decision. Thanks in advance for input and help. 

Let’s work on your perspective first....

1) Nobody spends 25amu For instruments to support a 65amu plane... not once, not ever....

2) When flying in IMC... it is mucho importante to be able to keep the clean side up and reliably follow the magenta line...

3) The plane isn’t what the instruments are for...

4) You have a million dollar body inhabiting the front left seat...

5) You may have three other million dollar bodies in the plane with you...  while flying in IMC...

 

Do you need any further justification for what you are trying to accomplish?

This faux financial argument goes back in time...  nobody was going to put a GPS in an M20C because it didn’t make financial sense...

Really?

Where did you get this il-advice?  

 

This is where I invite you to see all the M20E forever-planes around here...

Want to see some really cool pics?

After a few years... you can sell a full IFR panel with an attached M20E...

 

Don’t go financially crazy... just because all of the other kids are doing it...  Some have saved for decades, paid off kid’s educations, paid off houses, paid for things I haven’t even thought of yet...

Briefly, your justification for spending on an IR worthy IP... is the value you place on the people inside the plane... not the purchase price of the plane...

PP thoughts only, not a body value estimator...

Best regards,

-a-

[Cruiser]

anything having to do with aviation is a "want' not a "need".

Do what you want. 

[LANCECASPER]

Don't try justifying it, just decide you want it, it's a lot easier that way. 

[Yetti]

On 4/19/2021 at 7:58 AM, steingar said:

I once totaled up everything I'd spent on the airplane one year.  I immediately swore never to do such a thing again.  If you really have to justify costs, take up knitting, or baking, or perhaps woodworking. There is no rational justification for the monies we spend on aviation.  None at all.

a 2x4 is up to like 7 dollar.  so woodworking is out for awhile

[carusoam]

10 hours ago, Cruiser said:

anything having to do with aviation is a "want' not a "need".

Do what you want. 

98% true...

The other 2% fly their Mooney to work...  needed like a car...

Some Mooneys get used for business...  it’s really cool to fly to a customer site... 

There is one Mooney around here that is used like a parts pick-up van...

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

There is a number to put on safety.   There is a number to put on a modern autopilot.  If you had to rebuild all the instruments in the panel how much would that be?   There is some money to be captured by selling the old stuff.  Everyone says you have to have an engine monitor.   How much is that?  What if that is part of the glass panel package.

[NotarPilot]

On 4/19/2021 at 2:36 AM, chriscalandro said:

My 67 C

 

do you have the money?

do you want glass?

if the answer to both of those is yes, then get the glass. 

Seeing this makes me have panel envy. 

[Yetti]

5 hours ago, NotarPilot said:

Seeing this makes me have panel envy. 

Seeing an led strip crappily draped across the glare shield makes me sad.

[RJBrown]

On 4/19/2021 at 9:21 AM, Marauder said:

In the world of single pilot IFR, an autopilot is IMHO a necessity. Don't let the rhetoric of "real pilots don't need autopilots" sway you. Even in the majors, the majority of their flying is with the autopilot on and that is with two trained pilots on board and not Aunt Emma sitting in the co-pilot seat wanting to know why the light is blinking red. Having the ability to let George handle the flying while you are briefing an approach with Aunt Emma talking about how much her bunions are hurting, really helps with the workload.

In single pilot IFR the pilot must be the systems manager. 
You cannot be an effective systems manager if you are one of the systems.

The toughest IFR flight I ever had was VFR eastbound out of Centennial (APA) for Florida via (LIT) I took off at 2 am on a moonless sever clear night. 
The autopilot failed, no horizon outside, could not tell a star from a farmhouse. I turned the panel lights up all the way and flew the gauges until the sun came up.

It took all my concentration to fly that morning. I had nothing else to do. No traffic no distractions at all. Just flight following on a lonely morning. Convinced me that without a functioning auto pilot single pilot IFR was a fools errand.

[Davidv]

For me it was three reasons:

1) I like to fly at night and seeing half of my gauges was getting old

2) my king autopilot was showing signs of trouble as well as an ever tilting KG-258 - you get get good at flying with limited panel.

3) I knew if I ever wanted to sell the plane it would sell much quicker with a new panel.  Yes, you’re also putting more money into your plane but I think the old adage of getting 50% of your avionics investment is no longer true.  Sure, if you just put a 750 in an E model maybe you don’t get it back.  However, an entirely glass panel attracts a lot of eyeballs and gets you closer to getting your money back. 

[RobertGary1]

On 4/19/2021 at 1:49 PM, kpaul said:

Absolutely! In fact I fly a PC-12, single pilot on a Part 135 Certificate. One of the Companies OpSpecs from the FAA is that the autopilot is the "second" pilot.  We can't dispatch without it.

In my Mooney, I love having reliable glass instruments, a WAAS GPS and the latest and greatest autopilot.  No worries about a vac pump failure in IMC (once was enough), my ADI never suffers from an inability to become erect, and it's hard to argue against the usefulness of an autopilot while in IMC.

Training is the biggest investment that needs to happen after the upgrade is complete.  All the coolest toys can become a huge distraction in you don't know how to use them accurately and efficiently. 

I think that’s a general 135 rules. No autopilot means you have to go vfr 

 

to me the best justification is you can’t take the money with you and I hope to not leave money to my kids. I already put them through expensive universities. 

[Unit74]

My shop just pushed out a Cessna 152 from the avionics bay;  $35k in avionics, including a G3X 10”. I looked at it and shook my head. The owner was tickled pink.  Why? Because he could, had the cash, and loved the plane. 
 

Harley riders do it, boat owners do it, big truck owners do it, sport car owners do it and generally none of them expect a monetary  “return on investment”.  That guy is gonna grin ear to ear for years flying that plane. Sounds like a good expenditure to me.

[MBDiagMan]

I think that it’s a rare case where it can truly be justified.  You either want to spend the money and you have it to spend or you don’t.

I just got through putting a 420 in a Cessna 140.  That couldn’t be “justified” in fifty years.  I wanted to do it and I did it.  That’s the only justification that can work 90+ % of the time.

[PT20J]

Heck, I can't even justify the cost of the airplane. 

[Z W]

You don't have a $65k plane.  Maybe that's what it would sell for, or what you paid for it, but in fact it's a $750k-$1m plane (in today's dollars), depreciated all the way down to $65k.

So really, all you're doing is spending a very reasonable amount to maintain the systems in your million-dollar investment, and saving lots of money compared to buying a new one.

On a more serious note, I've flown old panels full of faulty steam gauges and old wiring.  I've had a vacuum AI gyro die, luckily in VMC.  I've had an electric turn coordinator die shortly after takeoff on a long cross-country IFR, again luckily still in VMC, that resulted in climbing to 17k to stay VFR, with family on board, adding significant stress.  I've had an HSI stop working on another long cross-country, in VMC (thinking about this, I've sure been lucky on my instrument failures), resulting in no autopilot and about 8 hours of solo hand-flying, and having to stay VMC dodging widespread rain and clouds on the way back.  This is all in about 350 hours of total time.  The safety concerns are ultimately why we redid our panel in glass.

Any plane I own in the future is getting modern glass without gyros, a digital autopilot with envelope protection, and at least two redundant AHRS with battery backups, even if the panel upgrade is all I can afford.  I am of the opinion that any IFR plane should have those features now, considering their cost and availability, as a safety concern.  

Edited April 27, 2021 by Zane Williams

[Unit74]

8 hours ago, PT20J said:

Heck, I can't even justify the cost of the airplane. 

Very few of us can.  As hobby pilots, a slim margin actually use it for business purposes or other capital gains needs. It’s a frivolous expenditure for those with disposable incomes. 

[Hank]

13 hours ago, Zane Williams said:

On a more serious note, I've flown old panels full of faulty steam gauges and old wiring.  I've had a vacuum AI gyro die, luckily in VMC.  I've had an electric turn coordinator die shortly after takeoff on a long cross-country IFR, again luckily still in VMC, that resulted in climbing to 17k to stay VFR, with family on board, adding significant stress.  I've had an HSI stop working on another long cross-country, in VMC (thinking about this, I've sure been lucky on my instrument failures), resulting in no autopilot and about 8 hours of solo hand-flying, and having to stay VMC dodging widespread rain and clouds on the way back.  This is all in about 350 hours of total time. 

Wow! In almost triple your time, I lost a vacuum pump on a 35nm VFR flight home from breakfast, and two landing lights; after the second one, I went LED.

13 hours ago, Zane Williams said:

You don't have a $65k plane.  Maybe that's what it would sell for, or what you paid for it, but in fact it's a $750k-$1m plane (in today's dollars), depreciated all the way down to $65k.

....

Any plane I own in the future is getting modern glass without gyros, a digital autopilot with envelope protection, and at least two redundant AHRS with battery backups, even if the panel upgrade is all I can afford.  I am of the opinion that any IFR plane should have those features now, considering their cost and availability, as a safety concern.  

I'm open to the idea of a partner. Want half of a still-functioning, upgradeable steam panel C-model? We can discuss depreciation from your million dollar valuation . . . . 

[Z W]

9 hours ago, Hank said:

Wow! In almost triple your time, I lost a vacuum pump on a 35nm VFR flight home from breakfast, and two landing lights; after the second one, I went LED.

I'm open to the idea of a partner. Want half of a still-functioning, upgradeable steam panel C-model? We can discuss depreciation from your million dollar valuation . . . . 

Hah, the first vacuum attitude indicator failure was in a 68C model.  Then I moved to our K which had a lot of...questionable...wiring behind the panel when we got it.  Shops hated working on it.  When we finally gave the avionics shop the green light to rip it all out and go glass they were thrilled.

Happy to help with some mental gymnastics to justify spending money on an airplane, but I do enough of that with one, no need for half of another C model.  Sometimes I wish I had kept our C though, it was a great plane.  Better than the K in some ways, like short field ops, grass strips, and practical inability to load it over gross weight.  I'd put a glass panel in that plane if I still had it.

[spectre6573]

For me, it came down to the fact it became a primary means of transportation to work. It’s not uncommon to put 25-30 hours on the old girl in a month. 
 

I wanted to remove any items from failing on me while in the worst situation and plane to keep the airplane for a very long time. 
 

So if you are planning on doing a lot of fly, think of it as your doing the upgrades for yourself and your own flying desires and not for resale. I thoroughly enjoy my flights and have all the resources for enroute planning. In regards to iPad’s, I live in the southwest and have had my iPads shut down many times from heat during flight. Sometimes taking 20-30 minutes to come back. In regards as using them as a big part of your situational awareness, I have found them unreliable for my needs and wanted to get away from the yoke mount. That brings up the next ticket. Not having an iPad on the yoke is such a better feeling. I have about 400 hours with an yoke mounted iPad in my Mooney and with my Dynon there is no need anymore. 

[MikeOH]

Oil .... vinegar.

Army  .... intelligence.

Passive .... aggressive.

Walking ..... dead

Sweet ..... sorrow.

Justifying the cost of .... airplanes 

 

[carusoam]

Justifying the cost...   keep tracking the expenses...

Neither are helpful... none are recommended...

-a-

[Unit74]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

Justifying the cost...   keep tracking the expenses...

Neither are helpful... none are recommended...

-a-

Word

 

I don’t keep a balance sheet of pay/owe on my plane.  If I did, I would have to sell it.