With or Without Flaps?

[PT20J]

Many years ago, a fellow pilot and I with new instrument ratings decided that flying from San Jose CA to Monterey in a Cherokee during a cold front passage would be good practice. The plan was for me to fly to Monterey and land and Bob (Rod Machado says he always uses the name Bob because it's the only name he can consistently make sound funny, but in this case, the pilot really was named Bob) would fly back. I recall as we intercepted the localizer that I felt I could do a much better job of flying if I could see any of the instruments as they were all a blur due to turbulence. We broke out at 1200' in a 35 degree crab and elected not to attempt a landing. I think the crosswind was reported as gusting to 35 or so. So, I've never had the opportunity to land a Cherokee in a 35 knot crosswind (demonstrated crosswind velocity is 17 kts which is greater than the Mooney). It would have made a great story if I had pulled it off. 

[markgrue]

If you landed directly into the 35kt wind in a C model you would be doing about 14kts over the ground.  Just land cross ways on the runway where a taxiway meets.  Unless it is a rather small airport you would only be doing taxi speed by the time you got off the runway.

 

Mark

[kortopates]

If you landed directly into the 35kt wind in a C model you would be doing about 14kts over the ground.  Just land cross ways on the runway where a taxiway meets.  Unless it is a rather small airport you would only be doing taxi speed by the time you got off the runway.
 
Mark

You lost me there. Skip said cross wind of 35 kts. A pure cross wind will have no head wind component meaning the planes ground speed will be whatever its airspeed is on landing, which would likely be very much greater than a normal landing in order to maintain runway alignment likely coupled with less than full flaps.
Are you subtracting all of the 35 as headwind on landing speed.

A simple way I use to mentally calculate x-wind component is my $5.79 xwind calculator. The 5 represents .5 for 30 deg, .7 for 45 deg and .9 for 60 deg.
The opposite order works for the headwind, but even with 60 deg xwind which we’ll feel 90% of in the x-wind component, we’ll only see 50% in the headwind component.


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[spistora]

9 hours ago, markgrue said:

If you landed directly into the 35kt wind in a C model you would be doing about 14kts over the ground.  Just land cross ways on the runway where a taxiway meets.  Unless it is a rather small airport you would only be doing taxi speed by the time you got off the runway.

 

Mark

There is a guy on our field that has been know to takeoff across the runway, inline with the taxiway.  Not sure if he has tried landing that way. It is a 150' wide runway.

[Nokomis449]

9 hours ago, markgrue said:

If you landed directly into the 35kt wind in a C model...

What he's saying is that IF there was a perpendicular taxiway/tarmac of any length, it could be used to land directly into the wind.  Assuming all caveats are met for obstacle clearance, experience, etc., it might be the best option.  ATC can even approve such actions at controlled fields at their discretion if asked, but would never "offer" it.  

[kortopates]

2 hours ago, Nokomis449 said:

What he's saying is that IF there was a perpendicular taxiway/tarmac of any length, it could be used to land directly into the wind.  Assuming all caveats are met for obstacle clearance, experience, etc., it might be the best option.  ATC can even approve such actions at controlled fields at their discretion if asked, but would never "offer" it.  

Missed that thanks! And very true, but I don't think you'll actually get approval in the form of a clearance but just the "landing  is  at your own risk".  

 

[Nokomis449]

Which brings us to the ultimate crosswind solution - Circular Runways!

https://www.internationalairportreview.com/article/33509/circular-runways-exclusive/

[carusoam]

35 KTs on the nose is pretty challenging...

Mentally challenging...

As in you are expecting 35knots on the nose... and you are getting it at altitude...

But you are ultra aware, that the head wind may die out as you get closer to the ground.....

I did this once in my M20C... 

The biggest problem I had... was ground handling... the wind was blowing my plane away while trying to park...

I should have fixed that unused parking brake....

There were three of us, so not a real big challenge...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[donkaye, MCFI]

Going into Salina, Kansas over 20 years ago on the way back from one of my rock band tours it was a steady 50 knots straight down the runway.  I think that is the slowest I ever touched down in an Ovation.  As was said above, the real issue was taxiing in for fuel.

[Shadrach]

On 12/19/2020 at 12:36 AM, PT20J said:

It might be best to recall what flaps do:

1. They reduce stall speed allowing a slower touchdown speed reducing runway length required to stop and reducing tire wear.

2. They change the effective angle of incidence allowing a lower pitch attitude improving visibility.

3. They increase drag allowing a steeper descent for a given power setting.

So, I use full flaps when I want any of those attributes (which is just about always).

Skip

^^^^^^^^. This has been almost my exact response every time this question is asked.  It’s hard to dispute that removing any one of these attributes increases safety in most circumstances. There are exceptions but they are rare.  So generally speaking I think full flaps is the optimal way to land a Mooney.
However, I take no issue with those of you who are advocates for landing your Mooneys sub-optimally. 

Edited December 25, 2020 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

On 12/20/2020 at 12:55 AM, FlyinAggie14 said:

In my F I land with no flaps 90% of the time.  I find little change in speed and a lot better control in keeping the nose off the ground without flaps.  The exception is when landing over an obstacle or very short runway <2000 ft.  99% of my takeoffs are without flaps as well.  

I have a 67F. I regularly do full stall, mains only, touchdowns and have adequate elevator authority to hold the nose off for several hundred feet after the mains touch. I wonder if your F has different amount of elevator travel. 

[spistora]

11 hours ago, donkaye said:

Going into Salina, Kansas over 20 years ago on the way back from one of my rock band tours it was a steady 50 knots straight down the runway.  I think that is the slowest I ever touched down in an Ovation.  As was said above, the real issue was taxiing in for fuel.

We were around that yesterday at SLN. I know gusts were over 50.  Fortunately, the wind is usually right down the runway as you mentioned. Makes it diffcult to float down the 12K' runway.

[Hank]

1 minute ago, spistora said:

We were around that yesterday at SLN. I know gusts were over 50.  Fortunately, the wind is usually right down the runway as you mentioned. Makes it diffcult to float down the 12K' runway.

But did you land with full flaps??? 

[spistora]

10 minutes ago, Hank said:

But did you land with full flaps??? 

I left them in the No Takeoff setting.

[tmo]

20 hours ago, spistora said:

We were around that yesterday at SLN. I know gusts were over 50.  Fortunately, the wind is usually right down the runway as you mentioned. Makes it diffcult to float down the 12K' runway.

Depends which way you're trying to land

[tmo]

On 12/24/2020 at 6:02 AM, donkaye said:

over 20 years ago on the way back from one of my rock band tours

Now I'm curious... Do tell, please.

[donkaye, MCFI]

On 12/25/2020 at 5:39 AM, tmo said:

Now I'm curious... Do tell, please.

After their "Smashing" success with their 10 million CD selling "Smash", Dexter, the lead Singer and organizer of the Offspring purchased a new Ovation.  Mooney asked me to help him bring it back from Kerrville.  And as they say, so began a long friendship.  Ironically, both of our birthdays are on the same day, although a few years apart.  After we completed his transition training, he asked me to take the Ovation out on Tour with them.  So, I was out on four or five different tours all over the US.  What a time that was!  I saw a lot of shows.  Over time he got his Instrument Rating, Commercial, CFI and CFII with me, and when I was teaching for the Mooney PPP he taught in several of them.  I don't think any of his students knew who he was.  I do recall one very interesting time when we all went out to dinner in Colorado Springs, and he was mobbed in the restaurant.  I think the Mooney people were in shock.

In 2000 he bought his first Citation and I was fortunate enough be able to take the training with him at Flight Safety.  So, that's what lead to my getting my multiengine rating, MEI, and Single Pilot C525S ATP rating.

Flight Instructing has led to my meeting so many interesting people and creating long term friendships.

[JimB]

I was sitting in Reykjavík back in about 1990 waiting on parts to fix a SAAB 340 that we were ferrying across from Sweden to Nashville. It was February and a ferocious front was coming through. The wind was blowing about 40-50 knots straight down the runway. Watched a C172 basically hover up to the runway and land, taxied to the first turn off, make the turn and immediately flipped when the wind got under his wing. Never seen anyone get out of an upside down aircraft so fast.