Need your opinions

[Misiu02]

Good Morning All,

I will be in the market for an aircraft going into 2021 and I need the opinion of you fine ladies and gentlemen.   I have only been in a Mooney a few times and I just do not have enough personal experience to make an informed decision.   Hopefully you can help me out.    

The Mission:

While I will certainly be doing more then the objective below with the aircraft I feel the mission below will be most demanding of what I do.

• 3 people  ( 200, 110, and 50 lbs) from the mid Atlantic to the Bahamas with 30-50 lbs of luggage each.  
• Two stops maximum (probably will do more from a sight seeing perspective but the requirement exists.   Thinking South Carolina (3 hours ish)  and then again in South Florida (2.5 ish). 
• Fuel efficient (this one I can answer my own question on)
• Real world cruise speed north of 155 mph.

Optional parameters:  

These likely will not occur often but should be planned for none the less. 

• a 4th person in the 150 lbs range + luggage.   
• Swap out the 4th person with a small dog. 
• Less then perfect runways.   I do not anticipate any need for grass or other unfinished runways but many of the out islands have runways that are a bit rough.

 

I am working to get some more experience in a Mooney in January but until then I thought I would just ask for your thoughts. 

On paper it looks like it could meet my needs from a function and a cost perspective.  However, I am concerned about weight, performance,  and comfort most of all.  Of the three I think its the comfort factor is what I worry about most.  I was just curious about everyone's experience going cross country with family.   If you had to do it again would you still have purchased the Mooney?  Or would you have gone for something like a c210 or a Cherokee6/Lance/Saratoga?

 

Regards,

Misiu.

 

 

 

 

[dzeleski]

As of right now you need a plane that can hold 900lbs useful including 64 gallons of fuel. I fly XC with 3-4 people all the time with varying levels of being at max weight. My J is an early model and has 1000lbs of useful. A Mooney will absolutely do it, but keep in mind your family is probably going to get larger in either number or physical weight. As they get bigger you will either need to pack lighter or leave fuel on the ground. Leaving 15 gallons on the ground still gives great range in a Mooney and youll get another 90 pounds or so back.

There is plenty of leg room in the front and back of my J, I have never had a single complaint but I find that keeping shorter people up front and taller in the back seems to work best for everyones comfort.

I wanted a fast retract with a simple gear design. Any Cessna retract is 100% off the table for me personally. I also considered a few bonanzas but the extra seats caused insurance to be significantly more then I wanted on top of the extra cost of maintaining and repairing 2 extra cylinders. Which is also the reason why I stayed with a J rather then going with a K or later.

[alextstone]

Welcome @Misiu02!  It sounds like you are poised to have some great family aviation adventures!  If you do the math on weight, for instance for a J model Mooney...I think it looks like this:

 

Useful load, 1000 lbs (give or take, some are actually 1100+ lbs)

Fuel weight = 64 gallons x 6 lbs / gallon = 384 lbs.

Remaining payload capacity =  616 lbs

Your scenario 

• 3 people  ( 200, 110, and 50 lbs) from the mid Atlantic to the Bahamas with 30-50 lbs of luggage each.   = 510 lbs, assuming each have 50 lbs luggage.

So weight- wise, no problem!

If you are carrying only 3 people and they are all that small, then comfort and space will not be an issue either in my opinion.

So, if you want to go faster, spend less money on fuel, etc. then logically Mooney may be your best choice. 

 

There is a "wild card" though.  The big question is:  Will you passengers be happy?  They may have their own biases.  For instance, your passenger may like a high wing airplane because they feel they can see better.  Or, they may feel as though entering and exiting a Mooney is too difficult.  These are not logical concerns but they are important nonetheless because what you really want is for EVERONE to be excited and eager to go on trips together.

Alex

[M20F]

You left out the most important piece which is your budget.  
 

[Misiu02]

27 minutes ago, M20F said:

You left out the most important piece which is your budget.  

My hope would be to find what I need for 100k or less as a starting point with at least 500 hours before overhaul on the prop and engine.   But I will spend what is necessary to be safe and get the job done. 

 

Misiu

Edited November 10, 2020 by Misiu02

[M20F]

1 minute ago, Misiu02 said:

My hope would to find what I need for 100k or less as a starting point with at least 500 hours before overhaul on the prop and engine.   But I will spend what is necessary to be safe and get the job done. 

 

Misiu

That pretty much removes the other planes you listed. A F or J would fit the mission and the wallet.  

[Misiu02]

23 minutes ago, alextstone said:

Welcome @Misiu02!  It sounds like you are poised to have some great family aviation adventures!  If you do the math on weight, for instance for a J model Mooney...I think it looks like this

Thank you for the welcome and the thoughts.   A J model is what I was considering.  I do not want to take on the complexity, maintenance, and cost of a Turbo model and I likely will not be flying into high altitude locations very often.     

 

My son would not care about the high wing/low wing or challenges getting in.  He is just excited about anything with an engine at this point.   My wife, on the other hand, has some challenges with general aviation size planes at the best of times.   But she does better when someone she knows is flying.   One of the reasons I have not purchased anything yet is I have been trying to get her acclimated first to ensure we do not end up in a situation where she wont be comfortable joining us.   

She might be the sticking point on a low wing aircraft.   The better overall 360 visibility out of a high wing can make some people feel more comfortable.   Once our county is no longer a COVID hotspot I have some friends lined up to take her up in different aircraft. 

 

Regards, 

Misiu. 

[Misiu02]

1 minute ago, M20F said:

That pretty much removes the other planes you listed. A F or J would fit the mission and the wallet.  

Thanks Mike.   That was my thought as well.   Although if a J ended up being a non starter then I would just have to suck it up and spend more but...it would not be ideal.   

 

I also looked at a c182.  It will carry what I need but adds somewhere between 1-2 hours to the trip.   We are going to call that plan C or D.

[Hank]

Even an M20-C will make this trip.

My Useful is 969 lb; subtract 312 for fuel leaves 657 lb. for people and bags. Easy!

Cruise speed is heavily affected by winds aloft, but I get 147-148 KTAS at altitude, and my 52 gallons is good for at least 5-1/2 hours (per the book). So far, I've gone 4:45 twice, landing with at least 1:20 still in the tanks. So 5 hours flying time plus the Golden Hour in reserve. 

Be aware, though, in any plane:  fitting 150 lb. baggage will be a challenge! Especially in a short body (A-E), which almost always run out of space before useful load . . . .

[Misiu02]

So I have one other odd question.   

With all the trouble Mooney (the company itself) has had over the years.   Does anyone fear parts shortages in the long run?  Whatever I buy I likely am going to own for at least 20 years. 

I have a friend and his personal philosophy (which I subscribe to)  is never buy a plane older then you unless its a military aircraft.   So if I followed that I would be buying a 39 year old plane with plans to own it until its at least 60.   Spare parts are going to be a way of life for quite some time. 

 

regards,

Misiu

[M20F]

2 minutes ago, Misiu02 said:

Thanks Mike.   That was my thought as well.   Although if a J ended up being a non starter then I would just have to suck it up and spend more but...it would not be ideal.   

 

I also looked at a c182.  It will carry what I need but adds somewhere between 1-2 hours to the trip.   We are going to call that plan C or D.

A J is about 10-20kts faster and newer, KBWI-MYGF that is less then an hour difference.  I would look for both F’s and J’s and buy the nicest one you can find.  Either will do the job. 

[chriscalandro]

23 minutes ago, Misiu02 said:

So I have one other odd question.   

With all the trouble Mooney (the company itself) has had over the years.   Does anyone fear parts shortages in the long run?  Whatever I buy I likely am going to own for at least 20 years. 

I have a friend and his personal philosophy (which I subscribe to)  is never buy a plane older then you unless its a military aircraft.   So if I followed that I would be buying a 39 year old plane with plans to own it until its at least 60.   Spare parts are going to be a way of life for quite some time. 

 

regards,

Misiu

There have been recent parts issues.

If you go Mooney you will probably want a F/G/or J.

The C is the best bang for the buck and might work if you find the back seat usable.

All Mooney models can be difficult to get in or out of depending on a few factors.  Keep this in mind when emergency planning with your family.  I personally wouldn't fly with a family member in the back, or the left seat, that I didn't think was capable of getting out on their own quickly.

[Greg Ellis]

43 minutes ago, Hank said:

Be aware, though, in any plane:  fitting 150 lb. baggage will be a challenge! Especially in a short body (A-E), which almost always run out of space before useful load . . . .

I agree with this as well.  And in my 63 C model, the baggage compartment is rated and placarded to only 120lbs so the other 30 lbs or so would have to be placed somewhere else.

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Even an M20-C will make this trip.

My Useful is 969 lb; subtract 312 for fuel leaves 657 lb. for people and bags. Easy!

Cruise speed is heavily affected by winds aloft, but I get 147-148 KTAS at altitude, and my 52 gallons is good for at least 5-1/2 hours (per the book). So far, I've gone 4:45 twice, landing with at least 1:20 still in the tanks. So 5 hours flying time plus the Golden Hour in reserve. 

Be aware, though, in any plane:  fitting 150 lb. baggage will be a challenge! Especially in a short body (A-E), which almost always run out of space before useful load . . . .

IIRC the J has a max 120 lbs(?) allowed in the baggage area, so some stuff will need to be secured on the back seat if you have that much.  Well, okay another 10 lbs on the hat rack as well, I suppose

I'd say you would want a person of moderate build or less who is physically capable in the front passenger seat in any Mooney.  They are the linchpin in terms of boarding the plane with multiple passengers, since they are the first out and last in.  It does take a modicum of flexibility and strength to get out from that position independently, and you're depending on them to get out quickly in an emergency.  A large or mobility challenged person should not sit there.  The back seat is actually easier for them since the front seat people can assist them getting out, and in the J there's tons of room in the back (I take my naps there after doing oil changes).

Also, bear in mind J's have a bit of demand premium, and are probably over priced compared to the F.  It's been consistent, so you'll get it back when or if you sell, but if you don't need the extra leg room in back and wanted a forever plane, that might be an extra argument for the F.   A good quality J right now seems between $90-120k, which pushes your budget, while a good quality F might be in the $70-100k range.

Edited November 10, 2020 by jaylw314

[Mufflerbearing]

Stretch your budget and get a Screaming Eagle.  Great UL, 90 gallon tanks and super comfortable for everyone. 

[M20F]

44 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

 but if you don't need the extra leg room in back and wanted a forever plane, that might be an extra argument for the F.  

The F, G and J are the same airframe minus some airframe clean up (and 20hp in case of G).  Same leg room.  You are thinking of C/E.  

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, M20F said:

The F, G and J are the same airframe minus some airframe clean up (and 20hp in case of G).  Same leg room.  You are thinking of C/E.  

Whoops.  One of these days I'll get all the different models straight 

[jwilcoxon78]

The J is a great option.  I've flown with my family at near max gross on trips often.  As other's have said, if weight becomes an issue, you can leave 15-20 gallons behind and still have good range.  A longer trip might evolve into a day's experience with a lunch stop.  Weekend trips with 4 adults, light baggage and 40 gallons is easy.  

 

With respect to rougher strips, I'd make sure you were careful on the landings, quick to slow and taxi.  Also, making sure the shock discs are in good condition as all this will help mitigate disrupting the sealant in your tanks (if it's still a wet wing).  

[McMooney]

maybe think about an E, the best model mooney ever made 8).  

Unfortunately, i'm finding most flying to be solo.  Get an E put all the saved money into the avionics 

[EricJ]

I own a J.   For hauling those kinds of weights and if you want 155kts+ and to go to unimproved airports a Bonanza might be a better choice.

 

[Misiu02]

Just now, EricJ said:

I own a J.   For hauling those kinds of weights and if you want 155kts+ and to go to unimproved airports a Bonanza might be a better choice.

Not that I would ever besmirch the Mooney on this forum but the Bonanza was my first choice when I started my research.   The only issue is that the only one I could reasonably afford is a  V tail and im... not quite sure how I feel about one of those.  Seems to be alot of back and forth on safety.   

One group says that there are no issues at all and all issues were caused by pilots exceeding the envelope.   The other group said there is a damn good reason for Beechcraft to go back to the strait tail.  I just do not have enough experience to know one way or another. 

[bonal]

Luggage 30 to 50lbs each are you bringing scuba gear? except that your better half might approach those numbers but how much does a few pair of shorts shirts and flip flops  seems like the F would be perfect fit based on all factors and your budget. Good luck and have fun

[Misiu02]

2 minutes ago, bonal said:

Luggage 30 to 50lbs each are you bringing scuba gear? except that your better half might approach those numbers but how much does a few pair of shorts shirts and flip flops  seems like the F would be perfect fit based on all factors and your budget. Good luck and have fun

Lol  I was averaging.   I think my personal portion of the luggage weighs about 20 lbs total..  That is including my engineering laptop for work and  my deep sea rod.    When we take a commercial flights we take 3 big bags.    I only get about 1/3 of one of them. 

 

[Danb]

Hate to suggest a Cardinal RG, it meets your needs, two large doors, a little slower, roomier etc. I’m definitely not a C guy but with your wife’s apprehension the high wing along with two doors may work. Good luck, also consider there’s a lot of available women out there.

[Niko182]

I'm going to say bonanza. The safety issue with the Vtail isn't an issue if you balance them properly. If you have an issue with a Vtail, F33 is always an option. They are also within your budget.