Ferry pilot needed from Houston to SF Bay Area

[binkata]

Hello Mooneyspacers!

I just agreed to buy an M20K 231 in the Houston area and, pending sign off on the annual inspection, the deal should close at the end of next week.

I considered hiring a CFI to fly it back with me so I could get transition training (and min. 10 hours of instruction needed for insurance purposes), but I won't have the free time to do it until the beginning of Dec, and I may need to have the plane moved prior to that as the seller wants to vacate his hangar by the end of the month.

If that's the case, I'll need to hire someone to ferry it for me (KTME-KHWD). Insurance requires at least 50 hours in this model to fall under the Open Pilot clause.  The quotes I've been getting from companies I've found online are $2100+ (!!!).  Seems like a lot for a trip that can be done in 2 days...  Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks in advance!

-Sonja

[Niko182]

I would gladly do it. I have about 500 hours in an ovation.

Ill shoot you a PM.

Nik

[LANCECASPER]

You'll need someone with 50 hours minimum in a K model.

[binkata]

Just now, LANCECASPER said:

You'll need someone with 50 hours minimum in a K model.

Yes, that's how I understand it. Though one company/pilot said that she logged her hours under the ICAO type M20T, which is what the M20K would be, technically?

I'll ask the insurance company for clarification.

[LANCECASPER]

Just now, binkata said:

Yes, that's how I understand it. Though one company/pilot said that she logged her hours under the ICAO type M20T, which is what the M20K would be, technically?

I'll ask the insurance company for clarification.

There are enough handling differences, especially landing,  in the mid-body turbos (K) and long-body turbos (M, TN and Ultra) that most likely they will want model specific time.

[mike_elliott]

Mooney Pros, Inc. might be able to assist with one of our instructors, give me a ping to discuss three one seven, 371 4164

 

[gsxrpilot]

I could do it as well, depending on the timing.

1100 hours in Mooneys, 650 of them in K's.

[McMooney]

Just now, McMooney said:

maybe ask  @Greg_D

 

 

[Paul_Havelka]

4 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

There are enough handling differences, especially landing,  in the mid-body turbos (K) and long-body turbos (M, TN and Ultra) that most likely they will want model specific time.

As @Parker_Woodruff and I can attest, the insurance will want time in a K model.  It may be possible for you to get a waiver for someone that has hours in another model but they have been sticklers for that lately.  So much so that time in a C does not crossover to time in an E and vice versa.

[ZuluZulu]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I could do it as well, depending on the timing.

1100 hours in Mooneys, 650 of them in K's.

Pick Paul!  His plane is in the Mother of all Annuals right now!  #LetPaulFly

[binkata]

Thanks for all the responses!  (You guys are really helpful--I'm looking forward to being a part of this community.)   I checked with the insurance company, and they did say it had to be K-specific time (50+ hours).  The alternative they would consider would be to add someone else as a named insured pilot to the policy...

I just got off the phone with @Greg_D and I think we've worked something out.  With any luck, I'll have a tail number to add to my profile in 2 weeks' time! 

[kortopates]

I personally don't think a knowledgeable experienced pilot would do it without being an additional insured with a waiver of subrogation- so the 50 hrs of K time is mute and you'll simply want to add the ferry pilot to the policy; where lack of time may effect the rate  but not make it impossible. Without the pilot being a names insured, I hope whomever realizes that your insurance won't cover them. Instead your insurance company could subrogate against the pilot to cover their losses if something did happen. 

Hopefully nothing will. Good luck with your new bird!

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I personally don't think a knowledgeable experienced pilot would do it without being an additional insured with a waiver of subrogation- so the 50 hrs of K time is mute and you'll simply want to add the ferry pilot to the policy; where lack of time may effect the rate  but not make it impossible. Without the pilot being a names insured, I hope whomever realizes that your insurance won't cover them. Instead your insurance company could subrogate against the pilot to cover their losses if something did happen. 

Hopefully nothing will. Good luck with your new bird!

I would certainly want to be added to the policy as a named pilot. But that can usually be easy and quick to do with all the appropriate documentation of experience.

[kortopates]

13 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I would certainly want to be added to the policy as a named pilot. But that can usually be easy and quick to do with all the appropriate documentation of experience.

You'd be a slam dunk as a K owner. The process does take a couple days. The Broker will want you to fill out a full pilot history form like any Pilot applying for insurance before they present you to the underwriter for coverage. Then these days they are more often charging to add on a pilot even when the additional insured is much more experienced in type than the owner is.  

[Yetti]

Mark Johnson Houston.  https://themooneyflyer.com/cfi.html

[binkata]

I'm new to this, so I have no real knowledge of how aircraft insurance policies work.  If anyone who flies the plane should be a named insured, what's the point of the open pilot clause?

[smwash02]

20 minutes ago, binkata said:

I'm new to this, so I have no real knowledge of how aircraft insurance policies work.  If anyone who flies the plane should be a named insured, what's the point of the open pilot clause?

@Parker_Woodruff would be the best to explain this. In a broad stroke, the open pilot clause makes you whole if a loss occurs with a qualified pilot flying it. The issue is that the pilot flying is not protected from subrogation from your insurance company. Being added as named insured helps with that.

[N201MKTurbo]

28 minutes ago, binkata said:

I'm new to this, so I have no real knowledge of how aircraft insurance policies work.  If anyone who flies the plane should be a named insured, what's the point of the open pilot clause?

I may be wrong here, and I know we have some real experts here. The open pilot clause protects your interest in the plane if you let someone else fly the plane, it doesn't protect the other pilot, who may get a claim against him/her if they damage your plane, you are covered. If they are named insured they are protected also. 

My airplane insurance protects me if I use someone else's plane, and they make a claim against me. 

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I have 800+ hours in the K, and would love to ferry your plane, but I just had foot surgery and can't fly! 

[RobertGary1]

4 hours ago, kortopates said:

I personally don't think a knowledgeable experienced pilot would do it without being an additional insured with a waiver of subrogation- so the 50 hrs of K time is mute and you'll simply want to add the ferry pilot to the policy; where lack of time may effect the rate  but not make it impossible. Without the pilot being a names insured, I hope whomever realizes that your insurance won't cover them. Instead your insurance company could subrogate against the pilot to cover their losses if something did happen. 

Hopefully nothing will. Good luck with your new bird!

Or a professional ferry company that carries its own insurance, which again makes the 50 hours mute.

-Robert

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, smwash02 said:

@Parker_Woodruff would be the best to explain this. In a broad stroke, the open pilot clause makes you whole if a loss occurs with a qualified pilot flying it. The issue is that the pilot flying is not protected from subrogation from your insurance company. Being added as named insured helps with that.

According to my agent in 30 years of writing policies he's only twice seen subrogation. Once was a pilot who borrowed a 172 to run deer into a barbed wire fence. He struck the fence and totaled the plane. For the most part subrogation is considered a high cost/ low reward activity for insurance companies he says.

But liability to the pilot is another story. I don't think the insurance company has any duty to defend an open pilot.

-Robert

[Parker_Woodruff]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I may be wrong here, and I know we have some real experts here. The open pilot clause protects your interest in the plane if you let someone else fly the plane, it doesn't protect the other pilot, who may get a claim against him/her if they damage your plane, you are covered. If they are named insured they are protected also. 

My airplane insurance protects me if I use someone else's plane, and they make a claim against me. 

This is the closest answer to most cases, however, some policies provide a waiver of subrogation for all named pilots. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

17 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

 

But liability to the pilot is another story. I don't think the insurance company has any duty to defend an open pilot.

-Robert

Many policies consider anyone operating the airplane with the Named Insured’s permission to be an insured. 

[LANCECASPER]

20 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Or a professional ferry company that carries its own insurance, which again makes the 50 hours mute.

-Robert

The word is moot, not mute..

[ moot ]SHOW IPA

SEE SYNONYMS FOR moot ON THESAURUS.COM

---

adjective

open to discussion or debate; debatable; doubtful:  Whether that was the cause of their troubles is a moot point.

of little or no practical value, meaning, or relevance; purely academic: In practical terms, the issue of her application is moot because the deadline has passed.

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

My insurance guy told me once that if insurance companies stop paying claims for every little thing, people quickly stop buying insurance from them.