Medical certificate copy

[Hank]

47 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

You are assuming a LEO knows what a medical certificate is and would ask for anything other than ID.

Here's my pilot's license. I shaved off my mustache . . . . Please ignore my brother, he photo-bombed me.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Hank

[0TreeLemur]

From the FAA I get a special issuance that includes a pixelated digital signature.   I could scan/copy double sided and it would be impossible for anyone to tell.  If they digitally sign a medical certificate, I don't think they are too worried about copies.  That suggests that the focus on whether or not it is valid.   A ramp inspection giving you a bad time about a photocopy just seems unlikely.

[philiplane]

make high quality copies and keep one in your headset case, one in your flight bag, one in the plane, etc. I'm pretty sure the intent is to show you have a valid medical. Not to do forensics on the medical certificate you produce on demand.

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

A ramp inspection . . . just seems unlikely.

FTFY!  

[MikeOH]

4 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

You are assuming a LEO knows what a medical certificate is and would ask for anything other than ID.

You're obviously smart enough to have understood my point.

What is unknown is your need to make a irrelevant comment; I'm not going to bother to find the FAR that requires you to present your pilot cert and medical to FAA or LEOs...I'll leave that to pedantic lawyers.

[MikeOH]

41 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

From the FAA I get a special issuance that includes a pixelated digital signature.   I could scan/copy double sided and it would be impossible for anyone to tell.  If they digitally sign a medical certificate, I don't think they are too worried about copies.  That suggests that the focus on whether or not it is valid.   A ramp inspection giving you a bad time about a photocopy just seems unlikely.

You'd think so, but look at GeeBee's post above...apparently airline pilots have been fried with a violation on their record for exactly that!

[RobertGary1]

My medical got damaged but I had a copy on file with a place I fly for. Printing a color copy of that would have be indistinguishable from all but the most intense CSI labs. 
 

-Robert 

[midlifeflyer]

10 hours ago, MikeOH said:

You're obviously smart enough to have understood my point.

What is unknown is your need to make a irrelevant comment; I'm not going to bother to find the FAR that requires you to present your pilot cert and medical to FAA or LEOs...I'll leave that to pedantic lawyers.

Oh it is you. Ah well. 

[jlunseth]

On 11/3/2020 at 10:02 PM, PT20J said:

My AME prints out the certificate on the cheapest paper he can buy. I always scan it in case it disintegrates before my next exam.

Me too, on my iPad, which always goes with me when I fly. Sure enough, last year’s got run through the washing machine, even though it never, ever, leaves my wallet, but just that one time... 

[1964-M20E]

21 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

You are assuming a LEO knows what a medical certificate is and would ask for anything other than ID.

There are some who will know what a medical is.  Those in aviation divisions of law enforcement and those LEOs who are pilots too.  

[midlifeflyer]

8 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

There are some who will know what a medical is.  Those in aviation divisions of law enforcement and those LEOs who are pilots too.  

Of course  

[gsxrpilot]

17 hours ago, MikeOH said:

You'd think so, but look at GeeBee's post above...apparently airline pilots have been fried with a violation on their record for exactly that!

I would bet that @GeeBee anecdotal evidence is from back in the day before AME's started printing medical certificates on plain copy paper, using the office printer. My first medical back in 2005 was on a "yellowish" card stock. But all my medicals since then have just been spit out by whatever printer is in the office of the AME. And I'll bet a tank of avgas that printed version is indistinguishable from a photocopy of the same.

Therefore I submit the "rule" is no longer relevant.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

I would bet that @GeeBee anecdotal evidence is from back in the day before AME's started printing medical certificates on plain copy paper, using the office printer. My first medical back in 2005 was on a "yellowish" card stock. But all my medicals since then have just been spit out by whatever printer is in the office of the AME. And I'll bet a tank of avgas that printed version is indistinguishable from a photocopy of the same.

Therefore I submit the "rule" is no longer relevant.

Just to be argumentative - I bet the copy is distinguishable in an FBI crime lab - but not easily to an untrained naked eye.

I wonder what the actual standard is and I bet there is one - any aviation lawyers here?  In many cases these days facsimiles of legal documents or signatures are usable as original, aren't that- said as a non lawyer here.  So I would think it would hinge on the legal interpretation of the phrase "original".

[kortopates]

Having flown extensively in the Americas in our Mooney, we’ve always presented scanned copies of all our required documents including certificates and Medical - without any pretense of implying they weren’t copies. Use of the copies has been universally accepted by all except for but one US agency - CBP. Officials with a bureaucratic need don’t care; just those operating on an enforcement agenda.


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[GeeBee]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I would bet that @GeeBee anecdotal evidence is from back in the day before AME's started printing medical certificates on plain copy paper, using the office printer. My first medical back in 2005 was on a "yellowish" card stock. But all my medicals since then have just been spit out by whatever printer is in the office of the AME. And I'll bet a tank of avgas that printed version is indistinguishable from a photocopy of the same.

Therefore I submit the "rule" is no longer relevant.

Signature will give it away, even a color copy. As an LCA when conducting a check I would examine crew documents and I can spot a photocopy signature a mile away.

 

 

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Signature will give it away, even a color copy. As an LCA when conducting a check I would examine crew documents and I can spot a photocopy signature a mile away.

 

 

The copy is more constant than the original. People sign with varied pressure on the pen 

[DanM20C]

A few weeks ago the FAA revoked my special issuance medical due to a internal paperwork error at the FAA.  It took my AME a few days to get it reinstated. He said the FAA will send a new certificate via certified mail and I will be legal again when I receive it.  Knowing how fast the FAA moves I asked if there was another way.  A few hours later I received an email from the FAA with my medical attached. They said to print it and use until my new one arrives. It still hasn’t shown up. So I’m sure copies would be accepted as that is essentially what I have now blessed by the feds.

 In the email they did apologize for their mistake.  How many people can say they got an apology from the FAA.

 Cheers,

 Dan

 

[mike_elliott]

14 minutes ago, DanM20C said:

A few weeks ago the FAA revoked my special issuance medical due to a internal paperwork error at the FAA.  It took my AME a few days to get it reinstated. He said the FAA will send a new certificate via certified mail and I will be legal again when I receive it.  Knowing how fast the FAA moves I asked if there was another way.  A few hours later I received an email from the FAA with my medical attached. They said to print it and use until my new one arrives. It still hasn’t shown up. So I’m sure copies would be accepted as that is essentially what I have now blessed by the feds.

 In the email they did apologize for their mistake.  How many people can say they got an apology from the FAA.

 Cheers,

 Dan

 

I can, and have a similar story.. Gotta love the email medical! (I think they refer to this process as "wiring" you....sooo 1950's)

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, DanM20C said:

A few weeks ago the FAA revoked my special issuance medical due to a internal paperwork error at the FAA.  It took my AME a few days to get it reinstated. He said the FAA will send a new certificate via certified mail and I will be legal again when I receive it.  Knowing how fast the FAA moves I asked if there was another way.  A few hours later I received an email from the FAA with my medical attached. They said to print it and use until my new one arrives. It still hasn’t shown up. So I’m sure copies would be accepted as that is essentially what I have now blessed by the feds.

 In the email they did apologize for their mistake.  How many people can say they got an apology from the FAA.

 Cheers,

 Dan

 

Yes, however once you sign for the new certificate, the old one is invalid and if you present it as so, you could be violated

Look guys, you can "conjecture" about this all you want, and you may in fact get away with it from time, time. Equally so, the chances of a ramp inspection are remote in GA but not nil. It is so easy to comply with the regulation on this one it is beyond conjecturing how to violate it and get away with it.

 

[Ragsf15e]

6 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Just to be argumentative - I bet the copy is distinguishable in an FBI crime lab - but not easily to an untrained naked eye.

I wonder what the actual standard is and I bet there is one - any aviation lawyers here?  In many cases these days facsimiles of legal documents or signatures are usable as original, aren't that- said as a non lawyer here.  So I would think it would hinge on the legal interpretation of the phrase "original".

If your 3rd class medical ends up in the FBI crime lab you’ve got much bigger problems than a copied “original” signature! 

[aviatoreb]

6 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

If your 3rd class medical ends up in the FBI crime lab you’ve got much bigger problems than a copied “original” signature! 

Yeah - I figure you are right on that.

[RobertGary1]

5 hours ago, GeeBee said:

. It is so easy to comply with the regulation on this one it is beyond conjecturing how to violate it and get away with it.

 

Not at all. If you’ve lost your medical and gone through the process to get the FAA to send a new legal copy it’s a time consuming and lengthy process. You can’t go down to the fsdo snd ask for one. You have to play voice mail tag with one guy in okc. 
 

-Robert 

[midlifeflyer]

13 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Just to be argumentative - I bet the copy is distinguishable in an FBI crime lab - but not easily to an untrained naked eye.

I wonder what the actual standard is and I bet there is one - any aviation lawyers here?  In many cases these days facsimiles of legal documents or signatures are usable as original, aren't that- said as a non lawyer here.  So I would think it would hinge on the legal interpretation of the phrase "original".

There is no universal answer. In business contracts, we typically include a provision specifically  authorizing the use of facsimiles. But where they are allowed, electronic filing of deeds and mortgages, etc, require digital signatures. Some courts have electronic filing which include the attorney's "signature" via username/password and a representation that the "signature" of others are to the attorney's best knowledge, genuine. I doubt you'd find uniformity on wills, trusts, and powers of attorney. What we call "digital signatures" are of multiple types. There are those which attest to the signer's identity and those which do not. And some would say there is a difference between a "duplicate" which includes the digital signature and a "copy" which does not (bear in mind the picture you see on the page is not the digital signature; the digital signature is embedded in the document code). 
 

When it comes to official documents, we are all over the place and I know of no specific guidance from the FAA on the subject of photocopies of medical certificates. I don't even have much of a guess, let alone a legal opinion. Except, of course, that if the FAA sends you a digitally signed pdf of one, the printout you carry around with you is definitely not an "original."

[GeeBee]

8 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Not at all. If you’ve lost your medical and gone through the process to get the FAA to send a new legal copy it’s a time consuming and lengthy process. You can’t go down to the fsdo snd ask for one. You have to play voice mail tag with one guy in okc. 
 

-Robert 

There is a quick and easy way. Go take another physical.

 

[MikeOH]

14 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Not at all. If you’ve lost your medical and gone through the process to get the FAA to send a new legal copy it’s a time consuming and lengthy process. You can’t go down to the fsdo snd ask for one. You have to play voice mail tag with one guy in okc. 
 

-Robert 

NOT my experience when I lost my medical.  I made one call to OKC, yes I sat on hold for 15-20 minutes, they emailed me a new medical that day.  I don't recall how long it took to get the 'real' one in the mail, but I was good to go with the emailed one until it did.

Less work than getting a driver's license from California DMV, that's for certain!