M20F IFR power settings

[Owen M20F]

Anyone have a chart for Power settings for instrument approaches and what not? I’m a new owner and am about to start instrument training in it and thing this info would be very helpful. Thanks

[Hank]

Developing this chart for your particular plane is a very beneficial experience! Make a list of what speeds, climb and descent rates you want, grab someone to write, and go fly.

Then tyoe it up, save it in several locations and print a bunch of copies to stash around the cockpit and use until you learn them. Then get the list out periodically for review, so you don't forget them.

For me, the most important one was 90 knots, level, gear up, Approach Flaps. It all revolves around that one . . . . .  

[carusoam]

The best reference is a handbook by the MAPA Safety Foundation....

It is a hand-out given at their training sessions that were held quarterly around the country... in pre-pandemic America...

 

Even that data gets updated / personalized as Hank mentioned above...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[Hank]

34 minutes ago, carusoam said:

The best reference is a handbook by the MAPA Safety Foundation....

It is a hand-out given at their training sessions that were held quarterly around the country... in pre-pandemic America...

 

Even that data gets updated / personalized as Hank mentioned above...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

The MAPA info for the C was based on a 1962 model with vertical windshield, huge guppy mouth and really low gear and flap speeds. I fly 90 knots with flaps down, but the old ones do it gear down because their flap speed is so low. For me, dropping gear starts my descent . . . . Almost all speeds changed between 1962 hydraulic models with j-bars to 1970 all-electric versions, to say nothing of the 40 years of mods installed on the plane by previous owners.

Thus my suggestion to fly and find out what they are for his particular plane. Sure, use the book numbers as a starting point if you want to, just don't expect them to be right on; some will be found in the next ballpark. Use what works for your plane, and realize that weather will affect everything anyway. 

Edited November 4, 2020 by Hank

[bob865]

Here is what I have posted on my panel for my E model.  Maybe it will help.

Pitch_Power Settings N413HM.xlsx

[KB4]

For J, but just fill in for the E

	CONTROL			PERFORMANCE
	MP	RPM	AI	AIRSPEED	RATE OF CLIMB/DESCENT
CLIMB
Standard	26	26		110
Constant AS Vx	26	26	10⁰ - 12⁰	69	1200
Constant AS Vy	26	26	7⁰	88	1000
Constant Rate 500/min	26	26			500
S + L	MP	RPM	AI	AIRSPEED	RATE OF CLIMB/DESCENT
Cruise	25	25	Level	160
	23	23	Level	145
Approach at 90kts	12	23		90
DESCENT	MP	RPM	AI	AIRSPEED	RATE OF CLIMB/DESCENT
Constant AS	11	23	4.5⁰	100	500
Constant Rate	15	23		90	500
Cruise Descent	19	23	4.5⁰	148	500
PRECISION APP	11	23		90	500
NON-PRECISION APP					800

Mooney Power Settings .xlsx

[Hank]

Wow! All of my Climbs are at 2700, and Descents are at the same RPM as used for cruise.

[gsxrpilot]

13 minutes ago, Hank said:

Wow! All of my Climbs are at 2700, and Descents are at the same RPM as used for cruise.

Same here.

[RobertGary1]

I find it varies a lot. A friend and I both have F models made within months of each other but our power settings are different. He has a cowl mod and slopped windshield. I'm stock.

 

-Robert

[RobertGary1]

Interesting that you only show 2600 RPM for Vx and Vy. That doesn't seem right. Should be the full 2700 unless you have some limitation.

 

-Robert

[McMooney]

Just figured out my numbers last week, only been 1.5 years since getting the IR.

numbers for my E model

 

2300 rpm 20 in  upon entering approach area

2300 rpm 18 in  before FAF

2300 rpm 14 to 16 in FAF to runway,   i usually try to shoo the approach at about 110 mph.

atc tends to yell at me when I get much slower.

 

 

 

[M20F]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

Wow! All of my Climbs are at 2700, and Descents are at the same RPM as used for cruise.

The difference between 2700 and 2600 in terms of power is negligible.  In terms of sound it is immense.  

[Marauder]

1975 F


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Hank]

1 hour ago, M20F said:

The difference between 2700 and 2600 in terms of power is negligible.  In terms of sound it is immense.  

At sea level in my C with WOT, it's 99.5% vs. 93%, hardly "negligible."

But yes, the difference reduces as power falls off with altitude.

[VinceCB]

For vintage Mooney flyers out there, do you approach with flaps?
Having recently bought my E I haven't yet had the chance to start experimenting but was wondering what to do about this since the flap operating speed is 100mph (86 kts). If you approach at 90kts to minimums on an ILS (200 AGL), is it difficult to dump the speed? Or do you simply fly the approach slower?

[gsxrpilot]

9 minutes ago, VinceCB said:

For vintage Mooney flyers out there, do you approach with flaps?
Having recently bought my E I haven't yet had the chance to start experimenting but was wondering what to do about this since the flap operating speed is 100mph (86 kts). If you approach at 90kts to minimums on an ILS (200 AGL), is it difficult to dump the speed? Or do you simply fly the approach slower?

In my M20C I never used flaps on an instrument approach. You're guaranteed to have a longish runway and it's one less thing to do.

[carusoam]

Vince,

Take a look at your flap operating speeds...

Realize how easy it is to exceed them...

Know the cost of exceeding them is getting a doubler for a cracked sub-spar... where the flaps are mounted...

PP thoughts only, not A mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

53 minutes ago, VinceCB said:

For vintage Mooney flyers out there, do you approach with flaps?
Having recently bought my E I haven't yet had the chance to start experimenting but was wondering what to do about this since the flap operating speed is 100mph (86 kts). If you approach at 90kts to minimums on an ILS (200 AGL), is it difficult to dump the speed? Or do you simply fly the approach slower?

I do, but my flap speed is 125 mph. Sure  akes it nice, just drop the gear to start the descent a couple of seconds later.

Many with the lower speeds just don't. 

[VinceCB]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Vince,

Take a look at your flap operating speeds...

Realize how easy it is to exceed them...

Know the cost of exceeding them is getting a doubler for a cracked sub-spar... where the flaps are mounted...

PP thoughts only, not A mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

Yeah, I suppose even flying at 80 kts doesn't give you a whole lot of margin. No flaps it is.
Thanks for the feedback!

[RobertGary1]

14 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

In my M20C I never used flaps on an instrument approach. You're guaranteed to have a longish runway and it's one less thing to do.

Only time I've used flaps is the VOR into SMO. 2 miles to lose over 1,500 feet. Full flaps, gear and full slip in the clouds. Technically its a circle approach (360 turn) but ATC just sends you missed if you ask to circle since there was always a business jet behind you. Since they shortened the runway its probably easier.

-Robert

[Tcraft938]

On 11/3/2020 at 10:44 PM, Hank said:

Developing this chart for your particular plane is a very beneficial experience! Make a list of what speeds, climb and descent rates you want, grab someone to write, and go fly.

Then tyoe it up, save it in several locations and print a bunch of copies to stash around the cockpit and use until you learn them. Then get the list out periodically for review, so you don't forget them.

For me, the most important one was 90 knots, level, gear up, Approach Flaps. It all revolves around that one . . . . .  

Very sage advice.  Especially having a note taker.  Might want to inquire with your instructor what regimes of flight and aircraft configuration  he/she recommends.  I had an instructor tell me, "other than slowing to pattern, everything should have the gear down".  Then the next instructor said, "well believe it or not, sometimes the gear doesn't discriminate between VMC and IMC, if that gear doesn't come down in hard IMC and better weather is outside your fuel reserve..."   Before we know it, there will be a glass panel and AP that does it all for us with the push of the "Land Button", taking all the fun out of it.  

 

[M20F]

17 hours ago, Hank said:

At sea level in my C with WOT, it's 99.5% vs. 93%, hardly "negligible."

But yes, the difference reduces as power falls off with altitude.

The charts are +/- 3% out of the gate, I don’t think @ 5 HP is going make much of a difference.  To each their own but I don’t see the difference.

 

[Tcraft938]

19 hours ago, McMooney said:

Just figured out my numbers last week, only been 1.5 years since getting the IR.

numbers for my E model

 

2300 rpm 20 in  upon entering approach area

2300 rpm 18 in  before FAF

2300 rpm 14 to 16 in FAF to runway,   i usually try to shoo the approach at about 110 mph.

atc tends to yell at me when I get much slower.

 

 

 

Thank for the info, I'm figuring out similar on the C and numbers are pretty similar.  Depending on the year of your E, I assume the 110 mph on the approach is gear down and flaps up?  Maybe you're lucky with the higher flap speed.  I have to be about 90-95mph with gear and T/O flaps, which has to annoy controllers since that is a little more than 1/2 the speed of airliners.  Then I realized, can a C172 really do much better?  I flew with an instructor with a ton of old Mooney time.  He did an approach blending in with the airliners and flew most of it at about 130 kts (150 mph).  At the middle marker in a continuous fluid motion pulled power back, prop forward, gear down and flaps.  The entire time the needles stayed perfectly centered and came over the threshold as the airspeed slowed through 76 mph.  His personal minimums (with experience) was if ceiling is 400 or above he does that method, if near minimums he flies a constant speed approach.  However, he also taught me, "don't let them make you do anything you're not comfortable with, if they ask you to increase speed, unable is always a viable response.  If they can't accept that response just politely accept vectors and they will sequence you to fit.  Keeping up with the plane and being stable is much higher priority than looking cool".  Unfortunately, 2020 has bit him too with a non COVID related terminal illness and tapping his experience is no longer available to me.

[McMooney]

5 hours ago, Tcraft938 said:

Thank for the info, I'm figuring out similar on the C and numbers are pretty similar.  Depending on the year of your E, I assume the 110 mph on the approach is gear down and flaps up?  Maybe you're lucky with the higher flap speed.  I have to be about 90-95mph with gear and T/O flaps, which has to annoy controllers since that is a little more than 1/2 the speed of airliners.  Then I realized, can a C172 really do much better?  I flew with an instructor with a ton of old Mooney time.  He did an approach blending in with the airliners and flew most of it at about 130 kts (150 mph).  At the middle marker in a continuous fluid motion pulled power back, prop forward, gear down and flaps.  The entire time the needles stayed perfectly centered and came over the threshold as the airspeed slowed through 76 mph.  His personal minimums (with experience) was if ceiling is 400 or above he does that method, if near minimums he flies a constant speed approach.  However, he also taught me, "don't let them make you do anything you're not comfortable with, if they ask you to increase speed, unable is always a viable response.  If they can't accept that response just politely accept vectors and they will sequence you to fit.  Keeping up with the plane and being stable is much higher priority than looking cool".  Unfortunately, 2020 has bit him too with a non COVID related terminal illness and tapping his experience is no longer available to me.

Sorry to hear about your instructor, i understand, my CFII died in a plane crash right before my IR checkride;  Really miss her yelling at me.

My numbers are with gear and takeoff flaps, flap speed in my E is 125mph.

One of the things she beat into my head was to have flaps, lights, catmissed, etc done by halfway on the Inbound segment so that at the final you only have to drop gear and ride it in.  The speed, except for a timed approach and being above stall is almost meaningless, 100 to 120 just happens to be where birdy feels most comfortable/stable.  

I once tried shooting an approach at 80ish knots,  literally had approach telling other planes how the slow mooney was holding things up, like i wasn't ON channel. wth. also made the approach take FOREVER.

 

[eman1200]

Interesting that you only show 2600 RPM for Vx and Vy. That doesn't seem right. Should be the full 2700 unless you have some limitation.
 
-Robert

Not according to some PoH’s



I mean, if you’re into those things.