Retractable Gear Insurance and Safety

[EchoMax]

I am a 60-year-old student pilot tantalizingly close to his PPL checkride whose training in a Cessna 172 was temporarily suspended first by the Corona virus and then by hip replacement surgery. (Too many marathons!)

While convalescing, I took the opportunity to upgrade my airplane.  Soon, I will be in the possession of a “new-to-me” repainted, reupholstered, refurbished, modernized 1966 M20E (N943RW, the late Bob Belville’s beloved “Gypsy Rose”).

My most-excellent flight instructor reminded me that I should be prepared to be shocked by insurance rates for a retractable: ~$5,000+/yr. Apparently, the insurance companies believe there are only two types of retractable pilot, those who have had a gear-up landing, and those who are going to.

I am fortunate that I can self-insure for the hull value.  Liability insurance is required by some airports but is relatively cheap.

I would like to “invest” my hull-insurance-premium savings in a safety system that would help prevent a gear-up landing (as opposed to financially mitigating it with insurance, after-the-fact).

I have in mind a radar altimeter, or some sort of software link with the Garmin GTN 750, perhaps coupled with some sort of Johnson bar position-sensing hardware.  Is there an inexpensive, non-STD’d solution that I could “Velcro” in place, or would I have to go with TSO/STD’d equipment, if it even exists? Any idea what the ballpark installed-cost would be?

I know, I know…. “There is no substitute for the landing checklist.  Always check the Johnson bar as you cross the threshold.  Check landing gear three times etc.”  And yet gear-up incidents still happen. Very good pilots have had one.

What can I do, what can anybody do, to help prevent this?

[toto]

Several people on this board have recommended the P2 system.

https://www.p2inc.com/audioadvisory.asp

[Hank]

I understand your desire to protect that beautiful plane! There's discussion of the P2 and some other options here:

 

 

[Mooneymite]

15 minutes ago, EchoMax said:

I know, I know…. “There is no substitute for the landing checklist.  Always check the Johnson bar as you cross the threshold.  Check landing gear three times etc.”  And yet gear-up incidents still happen. Very good pilots have had one.

What can I do, what can anybody do, to help prevent this?

I think you are on the right track.  Technology is a big part of the gear-up landing solution.

Pilots have proven conclusively that "GUMPS" doesn't work reliably.

To bad EGPWS is so expensive.

[Lance Link]

My jump to the mooney with no retract time and just over 300 hours total @ 62 years old resulted in insurance costs of $2200 including $120k in hull coverage through Justin Wulf.  I did put in a Voice Alert 2040 because I am highly fallible.  Cost about 1 AMU all in.  Provides reassurance.....that plane of Bob Belville’s looks like a beauty you are a lucky man nice it is in good caring hands.

[carusoam]

Self insuring for the value of the plane is great... That is limited to the loss/value of the plane...

Insuring for accidentally killing another human being or accidentally burning down their house can be beyond expensive....
 

We have had a few accidents around here... lives have been lost, other people’s houses have been hit...

Fire and accidents go hand in hand... tragically...

Accidents often include loss of control first... so there isn’t a last ditch effort available to not hit the house or cars...

 

So... for that part make sure you have the coverage...

If you have tough insurance questions as Parker... he is quick with real answers...
 

+1 for the P2, it gets connected to audio panel and talks in English... the need for knowing dots and dashes has gone by the wayside...

Always test your your stall horn during the walk around... Bob has a really nice AOAi to see before hearing the stall horn go off... something you can learn about during slow flight lessons...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI or insurance sales guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[skydvrboy]

One thing to add... get a quote before you freak out about the expense. My quote came in well below what I had been told and what I was expecting.  However, I was younger with lower hull value and that was when the market was more favorable.  Your mileage may vary.

[201er]

Just food for thought. If the insurance company doesn’t really want to take on your risk or needs to charge an over the top amount, you should contemplate that risk further. It’s not just forgetting to put the wheels down, although it’s a big part. There’s no substitute for experience. A bit of a catch-22. How do you get experience to lower your risk without taking on a lot of risk by flying to get experience? Training! Lots of it. In addition to instructors, make friends with people who can fly with you. 
 

Please remember while self insuring that you are taking on risk beyond just money when you and your loved ones are in that plane. 

[Cruiser]

10 hours ago, 201er said:

snip.....

Please remember while self insuring that you are taking on risk beyond just money when you and your loved ones are in that plane. 

what "risk" are you talking about ? How does that "risk" change with/without insurance ? 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Let me know if you’d like an insurance quote. Might be able to find you something better than what your CFI quoted, depending on some specifics.

214-295-5055 (office)

Parker@airspeedinsurance.com

About to head to my BasicMed exam and then a meeting, so sometime this afternoon might be best.

[Kmac]

First, congratulations on acquiring probably the best E model in existence.  Second, even a $5k premium for your hours and entry price does not sound unreasonable and I wouldn't be surprised if it were less.

[201er]

3 hours ago, Cruiser said:

what "risk" are you talking about ? How does that "risk" change with/without insurance ? 

The risk of taking on more airplane than the insurance carrier thinks you’re qualified to take (or qualified to take at a moderate cost). It doesn’t change with or without insurance. I’m just saying it’s a warning sign rather than just a financial matter.

[geoffb]

If my experience is representative, year two will be much, much less and by year three it will approach trivial, at least in the context of airplane ownership.  As you get some hours in the thing, your premiums will decrease rapidly.

[Parker_Woodruff]

And it’s not all a surcharge for forgetting the gear...overall, Mooneys would still have more losses if they were fixed gear. A lot more prop strikes and runway over-runs than a typical C182

[RobertGary1]

10 hours ago, Kmac said:

First, congratulations on acquiring probably the best E model in existence.  Second, even a $5k premium for your hours and entry price does not sound unreasonable and I wouldn't be surprised if it were less.

Probably get a good break after your private checkride too. 
 

-Robert 

[carusoam]

Learning to fly in a Mooney is extra special...

There are a handful of people around here that have climbed that mountain...

Insurance typically goes down after...

1) Get your PPL...

2) Get that first 100 hours in the Mooney after your PPL out of the way...

3) Get that IR done...

4) Small dollar savings come with additional training along the way... MAPA

5) If it helps... think of all the money saved by only flying the Mooney....   (OK, this isn’t really helpful...) 

6) Lots of other experience comes by flying different planes....

7) Don’t rush, its not a race...

PP thoughts only... Parker is really good at filling in your personal details...

PP thoughts only,

-a-

[MIm20c]

I’m going to come from a different angle. A high value E like you have will have a high enough hull value that an insurance company will probably fix almost anything. Meaning there is a very good chance that it will fly away from anything short of a smoking hole. There’s some value in keeping our fleet going, especially the ones that have been loved in the past. 

[Schllc]

When I got my first policy it was about $4,200 if I recall correctly and 85% of that was hull. 

 

I was transitioning into my Mooney O3 just before my ppl checkride and went through my instrument training in the same Mooney.
I started using gumps on my first lesson in a 172. I also flew in as many different planes with as many different instructors as I could find, still do. 
my examiner had a chuckle at my gumps check on my ppl checkride in the 172, I didn’t realize I was doing it because I was so nervous.
 

I really don’t want to knock guys who have had gear ups, lord knows I’ve had my share of mistakes. 
However, I’ve often wondered how so many gear up accidents occur in a mooney. 
All four of the mooney’s I’ve owned won’t slow down enough to prepare for landing without the gear down. 
I have only owned long body models so maybe that’s why, but from what you guys say, they are all fast and slippery. 
Unless you start slowing down 30 miles away and have no altitude to lose, how do you get that slow without the gear down?

I even have to drop to idle and pitch up to get slow enough for full flaps.

Two habits I have is retaining as much altitude as I reasonably can, no matter how short the trip (for options), and the technique my first “Mooney” instructor taught me which was 3 miles out, 300’ per mile descent.  
If the gear is up none of this feels right, the pitch is wrong, the speed is wrong, the trim is wrong, the sound is wrong, MP is wrong, to me it’s just too many alarm bells. 
hope it stays that way!

Very curious to me  

 

 

[mfcahill]

Another improvement could easily be implemented into ForeFlight and Garmin Pilot.  I know ForeFlight has all the information needed to flash a warning on the screen for the pilot to verify the landing gear is down.  I'm not familiar with Garmin Pilot, but I suspect it also has all information required.  I get a message with the weather frequency that I have to acknowledge for my destination airport when I'm about 30 miles out.  There is no reason these Apps couldn't flash a "Gear Down" message for the pilot to acknowledge at 500 Ft AGL or some other programmable data point that the pilot could select from within the APP.  Since most of us fly with an IPad these days this has the potential to greatly reduce the number of Gear Up landing and theoretically reduce insurance cost. 

I sent ForeFlight an email 2 years ago suggesting they add something to there App., but nothing yet.  Maybe we, the pilot community, should start lobbying ForeFlight and Garmin to implement improvements that help manage the safety and cost of flying.

[carusoam]

Direct all requests for big G to @TrekLawler often found at BT...

One of the challenges of adding additional alarms to a JPI900 or 930... they can’t get fine tuned by the user... so they often have alarms going off During important phases of flight that get ignored for a few moments....
 

The videos of people ignoring beeping alarms is pretty telling... the brain can ignore some things very easily... when it is busy with other matters...

PP thoughts only, not an instrument guru...

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

Another improvement could easily be implemented into ForeFlight and Garmin Pilot.  I know ForeFlight has all the information needed to flash a warning on the screen for the pilot to verify the landing gear is down.  I'm not familiar with Garmin Pilot, but I suspect it also has all information required.  I get a message with the weather frequency that I have to acknowledge for my destination airport when I'm about 30 miles out.  There is no reason these Apps couldn't flash a "Gear Down" message for the pilot to acknowledge at 500 Ft AGL or some other programmable data point that the pilot could select from within the APP.  Since most of us fly with an IPad these days this has the potential to greatly reduce the number of Gear Up landing and theoretically reduce insurance cost. 
I sent ForeFlight an email 2 years ago suggesting they add something to there App., but nothing yet.  Maybe we, the pilot community, should start lobbying ForeFlight and Garmin to implement improvements that help manage the safety and cost of flying.

With GP you can add an alert, like 2 miles from destination, the trouble is you need a flightplan, just a simple direct to doesn’t work...yet.

[jlunseth]

My suggestions:

1. Drop the gear 6 miles out. Don’t wait until you are on downwind. Don’t let any instructor tell you to wait until you are on downwind. Don’t let any other “superior” pilot tell you that you should wait until downwind. If you wait until you are in the pattern, then you are already in trouble. Too many things can and do happen unexpectedly, and that’s how gear ups happen, something distracts from normal routine. Obviously, the exception is pattern work where you never leave the pattern.  But if you leave the pattern, drop the gear before you get into the pattern again.

2. Drill yourself to check that the gear is down at least 3 times, once during your GUMPS check when you drop the gear and check it, the second time on base to final, and always on final. Say it out loud.

3. There are several alert systems. I have the Icarus SAM GPSS that says “Gear” or “GUMPS” (your choice what it says). I believe the newer PS Engineering audio panels have the ability to do a gear alert if the gear is not down.  But alerts get ignored.  All the pilots who have landed gear up, have ignored the gear warning horn. So you cannot rely on that, good habits are the best way to prevent a gear up. Knock on wood.

[Hank]

I have one gear habit that works both IFR and VFR:  I drop the gear to initiate the descent to landing. At glideslope capture (1-1/2 dots high), it will bring me down the glideslope; at the FAF, dropping gear makes a good descent with no power changes; when VFR, per my Owners Manual, dropping the gear abeam my intended point of landing sets up the initial descent on downwind.

It doesn't much matter what you do, as long as you are consistent. Pick something and form a habit around it, drop the gear at the same place every time.

Then check the indicator religiously. I point at the green light on base leg, and point at the mechanical floor indicator on final. Often on short final, I'll check the green light again--it can make the flare more comfortable!  

[FloridaMan]

My first year of insurance in my M20F was less than $1700 when I was 31. I had around 200 hours and an instrument rating. Talk to @Parker_Woodruff

[Jerry 5TJ]

On 7/12/2020 at 8:46 PM, EchoMax said:

I would like to “invest” my hull-insurance-premium savings in a safety system that would help prevent a gear-up landing (as opposed to financially mitigating it with insurance, after-the-fact).

The best investment for safety may be in training.  

As for radar altimeter—ForeFlight has a vivid display pop up at 500 AGL that would probably be as useful a reminder and much simpler, lighter & cheaper than a RA.