Gear collapse on taxiway

[Cej]

 

hello everyone 

I am New to the site. 
This went in my 78 M20J after doing touch and goes and exiting the runway to taxi almost stopped the gear collapsed  

Was with a CFII for a BFR check first flight in months due to Covid-19  and almost a full year of new paint, annual and other constraints  

normal landings  

prop ate the asphalt and is toast

left main fully folded right partially and nose gear full  

pitot protected the left wing with hardly a scratch right wing fine  

crane lifted her up and right gear appears ok

any thoughts on cost of repair and engine tear down would be appreciated  

Love the Mooney can wait to get her heathy again

thanks All

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Cej,

Is this Really your first time visiting MS?

Best regards,

-a-

[Danb]

Cej that sucks, glad you were ok at least it happened when going slow and at home, best of luck 

[StevenL757]

44 minutes ago, Cej said:

any thoughts on cost of repair and engine tear down would be appreciated  

How good is your insurance?

[cliffy]

How many hours/years on the engine? Tear down and inspect vs full overhaul

All the spinning components on the engine should be looked at also (mags, alternator, vac pump)

With proper, documented repair, you may not take too big a value hit.

First is to determine WHY it happened. 

Figure right at 5 to 6 months down time if you start today.

Damn, sorry to hear it happened to you.

[David Lloyd]

I went through something similar several years back.  As long as everything is correct, your insurance company will pay for most.  Not all, most.  Prop; the shop I dealt with said if more than one blade is required, the hub is probably toast.  $10-12k for a new one.  Wait, insurance will base the payout on overhaul status of your existing prop. They won't just buy you a new prop unless you had a new prop.  The engine has a AD requiring inspection of some parts in the accessory case.  Many engine shops won't do the AD inspection unless they also do the Lycoming SB that involves teardown of the engine, inspection of rotating parts, replacement of many items including magnetos.  My insurance company did pay to have that teardown done.  Iff they find other things, like pitted tappets, you will be on the hook for that stuff.  Overhaul/tbo status comes into play with the engine also.

Insurance bought me one new blade, and 40% of the prop overhaul.  I paid 60% of the prop overhaul.  Insurance paid for engine inspection, mandatory replacement item like bearings, seals, gaskets and the magnetos plus transport to and from the engine and prop shops.  I paid for a cam regrind and 8 new tappets.  Insurance paid for a local A&P to repair and repaint some sheet metal.  The insurance paid me about 1/2 the rate an A&P would have charged to remove the prop and engine and replace after repairs (this was on an RV I built).  When all was said and done,  the bill was only about $25k.  Of that, I paid about $3500 out of pocket.

When I understood how the insurance would pay for certain things but not everything, I was very satisfied.  I thought it was all fair as could be.  Insurance will want a copy of the last few pages of your log books, pilot and airplane.  They want to see the last flight review entry, your medical, etc.  Nothing was really unexpected, they were thorough.  Best be prepared before and incident.

[kortopates]

I saw this one in the daily ASIAS report and wondered if the owner was on MS - Welcome to MS! Sorry it had to be a sad first post.  I would think with the gear failing on the taxiway that damage would be significantly less than a Gear UP landing and more likely just engine and prop. I suspect they won't pay for the actual gear failing issue but all the damage as a result of it except for the betterment on the prop and if you choose to buy the engine parts to turn your engine inspection tear down into an overhaul. But I would expect you'll have enough hull insurance that they won't just write you a check and total it - which they do when the total repairs hit 60-70% of the hull insurance value since they get back about 30-40% by selling your hull to the salvage folks; thus its only cost effective to repair if the cost is within the ~60-70% of hull insured value.  Luckily you also don't have expensive cost to retrieve the aircraft. Thus most vintage gear up mooneys these days just get a check with repairs at around ~60K. 

[Cej]

Good morning All

thanks for the replies. 
starting the insurance process now. 
it was a BFR flight with a CFII 

still don’t understand how the gear could fail since Mooney has the safety feature that will not allow gear retraction below 65 kts Instead of a squat switch

thanks again for everyone’s help

cej

78 Mooney M20J

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

9 hours ago, kortopates said:

.  I would think with the gear failing on the taxiway that damage would be significantly less than a Gear UP landing

The gear pushrods get damaged in a gear collapse & that can be more damaging than a gear up.  

My E had an on-runway gear retraction when the prior owner unlatched the J bar (!) by mistake. They had to remove all three gear assemblies and replace a lot of bent parts.  

Sorry to hear about your BFR “ride” in the new plane, cej.  

I suspect the incident had nothing to do with the gear motor, but began with a turn to the left and the left main gear’s overcenter latch folded.  Once the preload is removed from the gear pushrods the nose gear will collapse from the weight on it.  

[MIm20c]

Noticed you’ve mentioned a couple times that this was a BFR flight with a CFII. In your position I’d probably try to avoid telling the insurance company/FAA unless you were already past the two year mark. No reason to drag the instructor through it if it isn’t necessary. Sorry about your luck, hopefully you’ll get it fixed quickly. 

[kortopates]

4 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

The gear pushrods get damaged in a gear collapse & that can be more damaging than a gear up.  

My E had an on-runway gear retraction when the prior owner unlatched the J bar (!) by mistake. They had to remove all three gear assemblies and replace a lot of bent parts.  

Sorry to hear about your BFR “ride” in the new plane, cej.  

I suspect the incident had nothing to do with the gear motor, but began with a turn to the left and the left main gear’s overcenter latch folded.  Once the preload is removed from the gear pushrods the nose gear will collapse from the weight on it.  

ouch! I was hoping just the main center left and right pushrod tubes would bent - about $600 each - they're the weakest point and bend if the motor is overpowering the gear but I haven't yet seen a case of what your E and Cej airplane did - that would get expensive fast.  

[kortopates]

8 hours ago, Cej said:

still don’t understand how the gear could fail since Mooney has the safety feature that will not allow gear retraction below 65 kts Instead of a squat switch

What you describe has nothing to do with the airspeed safety which prevents gear retraction when airspeed is too slow. That safety switch merely over-rides a pilot action to move the gear switch to retract by accident while still on the ground. Assuming no one touched the gear switch, and you didn't exit the runway at too high a speed to side load the gear, what you describe sounded like is a maintenance issue with insufficient pre-load on the left main allowing it left main gear over center latch to fold over with with very little side loading just as @Jerry 5TJ described above. So with those caveats, this would have nothing to do with the pilot(s) nor the air safety switch.

Plus if it was from the pilot moving the switch and failure of the air speed safety switch all 3 gears would have likely folded - not just the left. 

[carusoam]

22 hours ago, Cej said:

 

I am New to the site. 

after doing touch and goes       the gear collapsed  

 first flight in months       almost a full year of new paint, annual and other constraints  

normal landings  

prop ate the asphalt and is toast

left main fully folded right partially and nose gear full  

pitot protected the left wing with hardly a scratch right wing fine  

crane lifted her up and right gear appears ok

any thoughts on cost of repair and engine tear down would be appreciated  

Love the Mooney can wait to get her heathy again

thanks All

 

Gear collapses come in a couple of varieties...

Often, the pilot makes a mistake.... even with a CFI on board...

Less often, The landing gear is not set up properly...  they get out of spec for various reasons...

 

Touch and goes fell out of favor years ago...  they serve a single purpose of economics, and cause a few extra challenges of human error...

Landing gear-up, the estimates to repair a Mooney are pretty straight forwards...

Landing with one gear collapsed, followed by the chain reaction of other things bending and breaking is going to be unique to the accident... so guessing what the cost is... is really going to be a rough estimate...

Often people post pics of the various points of damage...

If you want to know why this happened... you may find in the logs the last time the landing gear was checked, following the maintenance procedure, using proper tools...
 

What went on during the year of new paint and annual?

Was the gear removed for painting? 
Was the gear over center forces checked? (I may be mistaking the proper name of this important procedure)

Using a crane doesn’t sound like an airplane friendly method of recovery... is there additional damage related to the recovery process..?

Much of these types of accidents are challenge of economics...

Value of the plane vs. cost to fix...

If the engine is high time, it may be sensible to consider an OH...

 

Good to see the pilot was able to protect the left wing... what got damaged..? 
 

Overall what hit the ground and got ground down...

What got bent... all the gear tubes get inspected...

It is Best to have a Mooney specific mechanic working on the repairs... familiarity of parts and systems is beneficial...

How are the conversations with the insurance company going?
 

How do you feel about paying for new stuff, vs. buying used..?

Rough costs... Guesses...

• Engine OH... 20 amu
• prop... 10 amu
• Sheet metal work... 5 - 10 amu
• Gear tube replacement...
• Paint update...

PP thoughts only, this summary comes from experience I only read about around here....

Hopefully, this helps you get your thoughts organized...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[Steve W]

My gear collapse, on a 1994 M20J which was probably a bit more damaging than yours since it was in-motion ranged from about $80k from the guy who got the job and then failed at it up to $120k from a reputable MSC. No one knows what the final bill would have been because I and the insurance finally just gave up and had them send me a check.

 

 

[Yetti]

Videos are helpful in obtaining understanding

 

[chriscalandro]

Not sure why the BFR or the CFI matters.  Sounds like you had a maint issue and neither you (at the time) or the CFI was going to prevent it.

If you or the CFI hit the switch, you or the CFI should not have been doing training in that airplane.

 

The safety switch isn't going to help you with a mechanical failure.  Neither is a CFI

[1001001]

I love this video.  When I bought my 201, I spent a couple hours on my back tracing all the flight control and gear actuation linkages to understand how they worked and what should be "normal" looking.  I had a friend in the cockpit pushing on the yoke and rudder pedals to confirm what goes where and how it all is supposed to move.

With regard to the gear collapse in the OP, during my pre-buy, the gear retraction motor linear actuator gearbox was found to be allowing the gear to be driven backward.  The clutch was suspected, but when LASAR tore the unit down, they found that it had been damaged by corrosion from water intrusion.  The internals of the gearbox assembly were basically trash.  I was told that it was only a matter of a few landings or hard turns on the ground, and I would have probably had a gear collapse.  I'm very glad I had a conscientious crew doing the pre-buy for me.

[kortopates]

On 6/4/2020 at 1:42 PM, Steve W said:

My gear collapse, on a 1994 M20J which was probably a bit more damaging than yours since it was in-motion ranged from about $80k from the guy who got the job and then failed at it up to $120k from a reputable MSC. No one knows what the final bill would have been because I and the insurance finally just gave up and had them send me a check.

 

 

Wow, just WOW!! If I remember correctly, your engine was damaged during delivery in a vehicle accident which really delayed things. And now after all that time (many months I presume) of no plane and then it gets totaled. What a terrible experience to go through for all that time. But glad to hear its over and you can get a new Mooney!

[Parker_Woodruff]

On 6/4/2020 at 8:49 AM, MIm20c said:

Noticed you’ve mentioned a couple times that this was a BFR flight with a CFII. In your position I’d probably try to avoid telling the insurance company/FAA unless you were already past the two year mark. No reason to drag the instructor through it if it isn’t necessary. Sorry about your luck, hopefully you’ll get it fixed quickly. 

I was a CFI onboard a mechanical failure last year that resulted in an insurance claim.  Wasn't a big deal.

[Prestonalton]

Super late to the party on this one, but I was the Mooney parked next to you at KCEW. Sorry to hear this happened but it looks like Monte and the guys at Emerald Coast got it repaired enough to be ferried out. Best of luck and hopefully i'll see you flying again in the area!

[carusoam]

Seeing if @Cej is stopping back here anytime soon?

Is there any update on your plane situation..?

Best regards,

-a-

[steingar]

I keep telling you guys not to do those touch & goes