Has Harrison Crossed The Line ?

[MooneyMitch]

I can imagine some reporter thinking they were being clever, opening an article with a double entendre headline by using the title of this thread.

 

Recently it appears Harrison crossed the runway hold short line at California's Hawthorne airport while instructed otherwise........hold short!  The other meaning of the title implying Harrison has crossed the line with his ability to pilot an aircraft safely.  Sensationalism used to get folks to read the article!

 

One article I read states Harrison was performing his flight review.  The article goes on to list all of the emergency landings/infractions made by Harrison throughout his flying career.  How wonderful!  The fact that Harrison is a famous person is the only reason for the article.   

 

If indeed it was a flight review, this implies an instructor was on board.  In defense of the incursion, have you ever done something stupid when your flight instructor was sitting next to you during a flight review?  I have!  Embarrassing.

 

It's ironic that Harrison has been such a positive spokesperson for general aviation, yet the press continues to sensationalize his flying record to imply otherwise...........flying is dangerous!  Stuff like this makes great headlines while creating negativism for general aviation. 

 

We have discussed on MS the topic of ones advancing age [myself included] relating to piloting an aircraft...............maybe adding some safety enhancements along the way.  It is quite possible this might be helpful for Harrison.  It might also help curtail such sensationalism opportunities for the press!

 

P.S.  As I think further, maybe Harrison was doing exactly that.............flying with an instructor as a safety precaution!

 

[DXB]

I haven't delved deep into the latest incident but at first glance there may have been imperfect communication on both ends.  I'm certainly in no rush to judgement. I do feel bad for the guy though. His high profile combined with the humility of his public demeanor was a great asset to the community.  Now his profile has made him a magnet for scrutiny by people who know nothing about aviation, making that prior role difficult.

 

 

[aviatoreb]

Actually ironically the very nature of the movies for which he is famous, Indiana Jones and Hans Solo, make him even more of a lightning rod for criticism if he makes errors.

He has had several different mishaps in recent years so it is becoming a growing lightning rod.

Not saying what he should do, but what I have thought about what I would do if and when... when an otherwise generally healthy aviator looses health and correspondingly looses his/her medical usually they step away from flying, and often that means stepping away from the community where their not-work and not-family hobby outlet lies, and often professional aspects too, just at a time that they may have retired and have more time and interest in immersing more into the community.

I have pondered what will I do if and when...say (make up a number) at 84 years old ...why sell the airplane and quit?  Why not transition to 100% dual flying with an instructor.  Not only you get to fly, but you get to fly with some young kid who will serve not only as regularity requirement, but also as a captive paid audience who is forced to sit there and listen to all my old-man I remember when stories while we punch holes in the sky and I buy a pair of expensive hamburgers for us.  What a great way to spend a day in retirement.  I figure if I am flying 125 hours a year now, but with destinations in mind, maybe I would fly half of that and less so destination oriented but so that covers the cost of dual, but why sell the plane and why quit?

Edited April 30, 2020 by aviatoreb

[The Other Red Baron]

If it was anyone else making those mistakes it wouldn't make the local newspaper. (aside from the golf course landing but that wasn't his fault.)

Edited April 30, 2020 by The Other Red Baron

[Hank]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

Actually ironically the very nature of the movies for which he is famous, Indiana Jones and Hans Solo, make him even more of a lightning rod for criticism if he makes errors.

He has had several different mishaps in recent years so it is becoming a growing lightning rod.

Not saying what he should do, but what I have thought about what I would do if and when... when an otherwise generally healthy aviator looses health and correspondingly looses his/her medical usually they step away from flying, and often that means stepping away from the community where their not-work and not-family hobby outlet lies, and often professional aspects too, just at a time that they may have retired and have more time and interest in immersing more into the community.

I have pondered what will I do if and when...say (make up a number) at 84 years old ...why sell the airplane and quit?  Why not transition to 100% dual flying with an instructor.  Not only you get to fly, but you get to fly with some young kid who will serve not only as regularity requirement, but also as a captive paid audience who is forced to sit there and listen to all my old-man I remember when stories while we punch holes in the sky and I buy a pair of expensive hamburgers for us.  What a great way to spend a day in retirement.  I figure if I am flying 125 hours a year now, but with destinations in mind, maybe I would fly half of that and less so destination oriented but so that covers the cost of dual, but why sell the plane and why quit?

Just do that with a young PPL. Let him fly a few legs, be safety pilot, log some time and build experience. No need to limit your right seat to CFIIs only.

[aviatoreb]

38 minutes ago, Hank said:

Just do that with a young PPL. Let him fly a few legs, be safety pilot, log some time and build experience. No need to limit your right seat to CFIIs only.

True - I hadn't even thought of that - as long as the PPL is fully checked out in your plane, nothing stopping them from being pilot in command while you are still flying - as a passenger - no longer a legal pilot but still fully skilled and experienced in your own plane.  That is fully legal right?  In principle, the PPL could sit there and do nothing at all.

Edited April 30, 2020 by aviatoreb

[gsxrpilot]

53 minutes ago, Hank said:

Just do that with a young PPL. Let him fly a few legs, be safety pilot, log some time and build experience. No need to limit your right seat to CFIIs only.

This is my plan when I get to the point I can't hold a medical.

[EricJ]

I can't find it now, but yesterday a clip of the ATC recording was going around.   On one hand it was a very typical transaction, "Hold short of runway," "Roger, crossing runway", kind of thing, where he probably was anticipating the clearance and misunderstood it.   This was in his cub, and I don't know how noisy it is or how good the audio is in it.

On the other hand, during the initial transaction and then when the controller came back on him, he did not seem especially alert.   It may have been more than just not understanding or hearing it clearly.

 

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Just do that with a young PPL. Let him fly a few legs, be safety pilot, log some time and build experience. No need to limit your right seat to CFIIs only.

 

20 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

This is my plan when I get to the point I can't hold a medical.

Me too, I'm hoping I will be able to keep my health up and keep flying late into life.

If you are looking for a well done documentary, check out "Wings for Maggie Ray" about Margaret Ringenberg. She was a WASP in WWII. She began racing planes in the 1950s. She didn't win (came in last), but completed the Round the World Air Race in 1994 in a Cessna 340 at 72 years old with two other women flying with her. The combined age of the three women was 202. At the young age of 81 she sat down in the Space Shuttle simulator and landed it on her first try. They said nobody does that and had her try again, and again she landed it. She had over 40,000 hours logged.

Free if you have Amazon Prime:

https://www.amazon.com/Wings-Maggie-Ray-Margaret-Ringenberg/dp/B01BKZV2L4

[gsxrpilot]

 

[Davidv]

Without commenting on the broader issue on Harrison Ford still flying, I'm a little surprised at the "continue holding short" language.  A lot of you have many more hours than me but whenever I've reminded the tower that I'm holding short I've received a simple "roger". or an explanation of whether there will be a further delay.  The other response I've occasionally gotten is "46BL continue on echo, cross runway 13".

This would be similar to "Tower, 46BL #2 in sequence at runway 9" and hearing "Roger, continue holding in sequence".  Not exactly standard terminology. 

There's some blame to go around here I believe.

[kerry]

I can see how Ford was confused.  The tower spoke rushed and to fast.  I could see how it would sound like "Husky 9HU continue across runway 25".

[carusoam]

Sounds like the flight was a cognitively tiring Exercise... as in literally sounded...

Followed by a very alert response at the end...

 

My take away on what I heard and read... may not be what actually happened... but worth the discussion... 

call it independent of what happened in this incident.

 

It is tough being human...  

Mistakes are part of the challenge...

Systems are set up so every mistake has some room for recovery...  (teamwork with the controller)

Then there is always the mandatory follow-up... (ground training review for the runway environment, the controller probably has some mandatory homework that goes with this too)

Similar to confession... (here’s the mistake I made, I won’t do that again, this is the training I will do...)

Internally, one needs to figure out what they did wrong that lead up to that point... or what didn’t work as expected...

This is on the scale of unintentionally running a red light...  with another vehicle in the same neighborhood...  (somewhat serious)

Something you don’t want to do, no matter how old you get, or how young you are... or how crummy or broken the signal was...

It takes two humans to get this right, and a system that is well designed and properly marked... upon further review... there will be three parts getting the cursory review...

Slap some hands, repaint some lines, promises not to do those things again... take some notes... file them properly...

 

a note on getting cognitively tired... it can sneak up on you without a lot of warning... then a affect things like your memory in the moment, and your decision process speed...

The busier the environment, the steeper the cognitive challenges...

Part of a good training session is to make everything busy, and throw on an extra challenge... cognitive over-load is part of the process... because in real life cognitive overload actually occurs.

The CFI, if one is on board, is there to keep your Cog overload from becoming dangerous... CFIs are human and we know they can drop the ball equally well...

For the CFI... He needs to be really on his toes... the pilot said one thing, that was proper... then, in the moment, did something completely different... the CFI can really get surprised by how the human brain can behave...

I’m sure this will be a headline story in the USAyesterday news rag...

Keep flying Harrison!

PP thoughts only, not a cognitive therapist...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[David_H]

It's not really apparent as to the reason why Ford needs an audience to judge every mistake he makes as a pilot. Tower gave him a number to call and competent professionals will likely follow up with him to make a determination on the proper actions to take.

It must be very tiring being under a microscope while in the plane.

[carusoam]

5 minutes ago, David_H said:

It must be very tiring being under a microscope....

Fame comes with some extra baggage...

It must take extra effort every day... until you hide away on a floor of a hotel in Vegas...

It would be even tougher to not have the money required to live this way...

PP thoughts only, not famous at all...

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

I don't think I would enjoy being famous.  I like being nobody when I see how Harrison is being scrutinized nationally on this, and perhaps no surprise he is.  But if I ever make such an error and get the dreaded phone number, that would be bad enough and I will enjoy suffering my embarrassment and the consequences in the privacy of my own inconsequential not famousness.

I think the reason some people are saying Harrison may consider if its time to hang up solo flying is that this is several errors now in just a few years.  That is pointing to a trend.  It means to me at least that this is something to legitimately consider, and not necessarily something he should definitely do.

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I think the reason some people are saying Harrison may consider if its time to hang up solo flying is that this is several errors now in just a few years.  That is pointing to a trend.  It means to me at least that this is something to legitimately consider, and not necessarily something he should definitely do.

Yeah, I hope fate gives me that many warnings if/when I get to that point.

[toto]

I don't know much about HF's flying habits, so I have no idea whether this has any relevance to him... But as someone who does this for fun (with a non-flying day job), I find it hard to maintain real proficiency in multiple types. I fly two aircraft with some regularity, but I'm normally far more proficient in one than the other. And the difference between a Mooney and a Piper isn't night and day. If the three planes I had to choose from were a Beaver, a Husky, and a helicopter, I think I'd be way behind each of them on every flight.

[kerry]

43 minutes ago, toto said:

I don't know much about HF's flying habits, so I have no idea whether this has any relevance to him... But as someone who does this for fun (with a non-flying day job), I find it hard to maintain real proficiency in multiple types. I fly two aircraft with some regularity, but I'm normally far more proficient in one than the other. And the difference between a Mooney and a Piper isn't night and day. If the three planes I had to choose from were a Beaver, a Husky, and a helicopter, I think I'd be way behind each of them on every flight.

I remember when HF landed on the taxi way at John Wayne.  The media was making a big deal because he was confused when getting his N# mixed up communicating with the tower.  My first thought was if I owned 10 airplanes I would get my N# wrong every so often.

[toto]

Just now, kerry said:

I remember when HF landed on the taxi way at John Wayne.  The media was making a big deal because he was confused when getting his N# mixed up communicating with the tower.  My first thought was if I owned 10 airplanes I would get my N# wrong every so often.

Yep. I'm not sure how many aircraft he has all together, but just the three I know about are pretty different from each other.

He needs ten N numbers, all ending in Hotel Foxtrot. 

[Ibra]

14 hours ago, kerry said:

I can see how Ford was confused.  The tower spoke rushed and to fast.  I could see how it would sound like "Husky 9HU continue across runway 25".

Yes it did sound like "continue across runway 25", I can see how he got confused while he is waiting for "continue taxi"
"cleared to hold short of runway 25" is far more easier to process but also sits one step in the confusion ladder 

Meanwhile on British gutter press, it sounds like he is getting full blame, including landing in a golf course with no engine and no clearance 
Not judging the guy, I know how it feels landing on taxiway instead of the runway, runway numbers are visible on grass as on tarmac 
Also nice picture of a Mooney Bravo, that reg seems to belong to a Boeing 767 captain?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-8269531/Harrison-Ford-77-investigation-Federal-Aviation-Administration.html

Edited May 1, 2020 by Ibra

[mike_elliott]

17 hours ago, Hank said:

I have pondered what will I do if and when...say (make up a number) at 84 years old ...why sell the airplane and quit?  Why not transition to 100% dual flying with an instructor

One of my Acclaim clients does just this. We have a blast together, or, well we did a couple months ago..will again soon we hope.

[jlunseth]

I agree that the tower's instruction was not clear, but the "hold short" part was. "continue" sounded sort of like "can you" hold short.  There was no "continue across runway 25" in there. The controller plainly says "traffic on the runway." you can't cross a runway that has traffic on it that has not been given its own hold short type of instruction such as a line up and wait or LAHSO.  Hate to say it, but he screwed up.

[flyboy0681]

Have I ever done something stupid with an instructor on board? Does landing at the wrong airport qualify?

 

[steingar]

I find CFIs distracting, even when they do their sit there and be quiet routine.  I make way more and dumber mistakes with a CFI on board.