Accident in Johnson County Kansas Mooney M20 S

[Frank B.]

https://fox4kc.com/2019/12/31/2-dead-following-plane-crash-east-of-johnson-county-executive-airport/

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by Frank B.
Add info

[flyboy0681]

Just saw it on NBC Nightly News, the tail was clearly visible from the aerial footage.

[ThorFlight]

Possibly N602TF? Arrived earlier in the day: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N602TF

[exM20K]

Registration changed as  of 12/20.2019.  Prior owner was corporate in KS, so could be same.

Another report https://www.kmbc.com/article/small-plane-crashes-tuesday-afternoon-in-olathe/30370954

Edited January 1, 2020 by exM20K

[Gagarin]

I just saw it on the ABC news. The tail looks like that of a Mooney with the Eagle logo written  on top of the tail. The plane crashed just after take off.

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/national/2-dead-in-plane-crash-at-an-airport-in-kansas

Wonder if a torque gauge with an alarm for power reduction would have helped the pilot prevent a catastrophic crash.

 

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by Gagarin

[chriscalandro]

A lot of these recent ones seem to be newer owners?  

Edited January 1, 2020 by chriscalandro

[cbarry]

This is completely speculation on my part but I’ll share a part of a story of an occurrence I had departing off of KOJC a year or so ago.  I had to abort a take off due to the engine surging to a point that I thought it best to not continue the take off.  I had a mechanic on the field work on my plane (Eagle 2, IO-550) and he found that one of the mag’s composite gears had stripped about 10-12 teeth.  What was interesting is that the mechanic shared with me that less than 6 months prior a Cirrus (similar IO-550) had shelled about the same number of mag gear teeth and had to abort as well.  Here’s the speculative question:  Is it possible to either rotate or counter rotate a prop by hand (maybe to move the prop to a position in order to connect a tow bar...) so as to damage gears in a mag?  

I realize it’s way too early to draw any conclusion on a cause of today’s accident, but my question deals with trying to determine the mechanical fragility, if any, that we all need to be on the look out for.  This unfortunate accident today, due to being near KOJC, reminded me to pose this question.

[kortopates]

This is completely speculation on my part but I’ll share a part of a story of an occurrence I had departing off of KOJC a year or so ago.  I had to abort a take off due to the engine surging to a point that I thought it best to not continue the take off.  I had a mechanic on the field work on my plane (Eagle 2, IO-550) and he found that one of the mag’s composite gears had stripped about 10-12 teeth.  What was interesting is that the mechanic shared with me that less than 6 months prior a Cirrus (similar IO-550) had shelled about the same number of mag gear teeth and had to abort as well.  Here’s the speculative question:  Is it possible to either rotate or counter rotate a prop by hand (maybe to move the prop to a position in order to connect a tow bar...) so as to damage gears in a mag?  
I realize it’s way too early to draw any conclusion on a cause of today’s accident, but my question deals with trying to determine the mechanical fragility, if any, that we all need to be on the look out for.  This unfortunate accident today, due to being near KOJC, reminded me to pose this question.

Nah, nothing to do with rotating the prop by hand or by power strokes or forwards vs backwards by hand. More to do with need for regular mag servicing every 500 hrs or 5 years. The nylon/deldrin gear gets fragile from ozone damage which can be accelerated by internal arcing (misfire). Also sudden stoppage, like a prop strike, can rip the teeth off instantly. Opening them up annually to inspect and complying with the 500 hr/5yr IRAN is the best defense to avoid such surprises.


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[cbarry]

 

25 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Nah, nothing to do with rotating the prop by hand or by power strokes or forwards vs backwards by hand. More to do with need for regular mag servicing every 500 hrs or 5 years. The nylon/deldrin gear gets fragile from ozone damage which can be accelerated by internal arcing (misfire). Also sudden stoppage, like a prop strike, can rip the teeth off instantly. Opening them up annually to inspect and complying with the 500 hr/5yr IRAN is the best defense to avoid such surprises.


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Roger that

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, kortopates said:

Nah, nothing to do with rotating the prop by hand or by power strokes or forwards vs backwards by hand. More to do with need for regular mag servicing every 500 hrs or 5 years. The nylon/deldrin gear gets fragile from ozone damage which can be accelerated by internal arcing (misfire). Also sudden stoppage, like a prop strike, can rip the teeth off instantly. Opening them up annually to inspect and complying with the 500 hr/5yr IRAN is the best defense to avoid such surprises.


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This is interesting to me.  My mags have been overhauled at least 4 times in 3200hrs and 52 years in service. As far as I know they still have the original distributor gears.

[Davidv]

39 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

This is interesting to me.  My mags have been overhauled at least 4 times in 3200hrs and 52 years in service. As far as I know they still have the original distributor gears.

"they don't make them like they used to"

I bought my plane with only 90 SMOH (and new mags) and had to replace my slicks after getting stranded on my delivery flight home....

[aviatoreb]

There was a new-to-the pilot M20J that crashed near these parts about 6 or 7 years ago at Lake Placid, NY, KLKP.  It was during a go around precipitated by a zero wind day when there was traffic on approach on the opposite end of the runway, but not all that close.  But anyway the pilot initiated a go around with flaps and trim still in landing configuration and he was not anticipating the strong pitch up that comes with a M20 in that situation that requires an immediate very strong pushing on the yoke (and correcting the flaps) to keep the airplane from pitching up strongly then stalling.  So he had exactly that disaster scenario and nose in to the ground with all on board lost.

The nature of this crash, the position where it crashed near the runway, the new to type pilot, the even higher powered engine than the LKP pilot, makes me wonder if that scenario is a possibility.  I remember several years ago departing Hartford I had somehow not repositioned my flaps to take of position - stupid pilot error - and indeed with my high power engine within 50 ft off the runway the airplane wanted to pitch up dramatically but I was quite used to handling characteristics at that point and instinctively pushed hard - very hard - on the yoke and kept the airplane flying in a perfectly normal angle of attack while I corrected the flaps and trim despite the wrong configuration.

[KSMooniac]

A pilot seat sliding back on takeoff could also explain it. What a sad end to the year.

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[aviatoreb]

3 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

A pilot seat sliding back on takeoff could also explain it. What a sad end to the year.

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True - absolutely that could do it.

BTW on that topic - I am very tall so I have tested if I can fly the airplane with the seat all the way back and I can.  In fact I added an extra hole.  BUT - it occurred to me some time ago that insurance against seat sliding back is a two-by four - or cut to whatever size lodges nicely between the seat and the backing of the back seat - behind the pilot seat on the ground to physically block the seat from sliding back - this being the advantage of owning an airplane that the seat may not need to be moved to often. I am not talking about installing a plank of wood - I mean just place it back there on the floor.

[Tony Armour]

30 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

There was a new-to-the pilot M20J that crashed near these parts about 6 or 7 years ago at Lake Placid, NY, KLKP.  It was during a go around precipitated by a zero wind day when there was traffic on approach on the opposite end of the runway, but not all that close.  But anyway the pilot initiated a go around with flaps and trim still in landing configuration and he was not anticipating the strong pitch up that comes with a M20 in that situation that requires an immediate very strong pushing on the yoke (and correcting the flaps) to keep the airplane from pitching up strongly then stalling.  So he had exactly that disaster scenario and nose in to the ground with all on board lost.

The nature of this crash, the position where it crashed near the runway, the new to type pilot, the even higher powered engine than the LKP pilot, makes me wonder if that scenario is a possibility.  I remember several years ago departing Hartford I had somehow not repositioned my flaps to take of position - stupid pilot error - and indeed with my high power engine within 50 ft off the runway the airplane wanted to pitch up dramatically but I was quite used to handling characteristics at that point and instinctively pushed hard - very hard - on the yoke and kept the airplane flying in a perfectly normal angle of attack while I corrected the flaps and trim despite the wrong configuration.

A long body taking off with the trim in the full flap landing position is an urgent situation from the moment the tires depart the runway, as in the stall horn is on immediately. Like you said, it takes a very hard push and you have to recognize it is a trim issue and get the trim moving ASAP. I have done it twice in 13 years.  Not out of the question with this accident. 
I’m saddened to hear of yet another accident.

[Marauder]

True - absolutely that could do it.
BTW on that topic - I am very tall so I have tested if I can fly the airplane with the seat all the way back and I can.  In fact I added an extra hole.  BUT - it occurred to me some time ago that insurance against seat sliding back is a two-by four - or cut to whatever size lodges nicely between the seat and the backing of the back seat - behind the pilot seat on the ground to physically block the seat from sliding back - this being the advantage of owning an airplane that the seat may not need to be moved to often. I am not talking about installing a plank of wood - I mean just place it back there on the floor.

I usually find myself flying from the back seat when I have new avionics installed.

I place my flight bag behind my seat when I fly. Being 6’4”, I only need a couple of inches to still reach everything if the seat slid back.


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[carusoam]

Sending a message to @mike_elliott... M20S, two POB,

Inviting @irishpilot to join the conversation.

-a-

[toto]

ASN has this now. 

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/231853

Discussion on Reddit suggests a strong pitch-up on takeoff. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/eia133/aircraft_down_at_kojc/

This has made me curious about the envelope protection function in modern APs. If equipped with a GFC500 or similar, is the AP capable of overcoming a massive out-of-trim condition? (Seems more likely to help in the seat slide scenario, but I don't know what the force limits are with ESP.)

[Davidv]

53 minutes ago, Tony Armour said:

A long body taking off with the trim in the full flap landing position is an urgent situation from the moment the tires depart the runway, as in the stall horn is on immediately. Like you said, it takes a very hard push and you have to recognize it is a trim issue and get the trim moving ASAP. I have done it twice in 13 years.  Not out of the question with this accident. 
I’m saddened to hear of yet another accident.

I’ve done it once, the first cue was “why am I lifting off so soon?”, followed by the stall horn, followed by “I’m an idiot”.

Fortunately, I was able to pitch down a bit while running the trim back to takeoff and all was fine a few seconds later.

[exM20K]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

There was a new-to-the pilot M20J that crashed near these parts about 6 or 7 years ago at Lake Placid, NY, KLKP.  It was during a go around precipitated by a zero wind day when there was traffic on approach on the opposite end of the runway, but not all that close.  But anyway the pilot initiated a go around with flaps and trim still in landing configuration and he was not anticipating the strong pitch up that comes with a M20 in that situation that requires an immediate very strong pushing on the yoke (and correcting the flaps) to keep the airplane from pitching up strongly then stalling.  So he had exactly that disaster scenario and nose in to the ground with all on board lost.

The nature of this crash, the position where it crashed near the runway, the new to type pilot, the even higher powered engine than the LKP pilot, makes me wonder if that scenario is a possibility.  I remember several years ago departing Hartford I had somehow not repositioned my flaps to take of position - stupid pilot error - and indeed with my high power engine within 50 ft off the runway the airplane wanted to pitch up dramatically but I was quite used to handling characteristics at that point and instinctively pushed hard - very hard - on the yoke and kept the airplane flying in a perfectly normal angle of attack while I corrected the flaps and trim despite the wrong configuration.

This scenario seems possible to me, too.  There have been a number of long body. LOC takeoff crashes, though none that I’ve read of recently.  Not only elevator trim-pitch trim is dramatic in these planes. Rudder is substantially deflected at takeoff rudder trim. Typical outcome would be a roll over to the left, which appears to be the case here
 

very sad whatever the cause.

-dan

Edited January 1, 2020 by exM20K

[Marauder]

ASN has this now. 
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/231853
Discussion on Reddit suggests a strong pitch-up on takeoff. 
https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/eia133/aircraft_down_at_kojc/
This has made me curious about the envelope protection function in modern APs. If equipped with a GFC500 or similar, is the AP capable of overcoming a massive out-of-trim condition? (Seems more likely to help in the seat slide scenario, but I don't know what the force limits are with ESP.)

I think it comes down to the amount of altitude needed for the envelope protection to do it’s thing. I was always under the belief it was designed for loss of control at altitude. Specifically for spatial disorientation events. I’d be interested in knowing what protection it can offer.


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[toto]

6 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

I think it comes down to the amount of altitude needed for the envelope protection to do it’s thing. I was always under the belief it was designed for loss of control at altitude. Specifically for spatial disorientation events. I’d be interested in knowing what protection it can offer.


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With the GFC500, you can't even practice a departure stall -- the ESP starts pushing nose-down before the stall warning goes. You have to turn off ESP for training, or you'll never stall the plane. 

(This is purely based on my own experience with the GFC500 - I have no idea whether extreme nose-high trim was a design consideration..)

[jetdriven]

I would think a panicked pilot can pull through the ESP and stall it.  

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

There was a new-to-the pilot M20J that crashed near these parts about 6 or 7 years ago at Lake Placid, NY, KLKP.  It was during a go around precipitated by a zero wind day when there was traffic on approach on the opposite end of the runway, but not all that close.  But anyway the pilot initiated a go around with flaps and trim still in landing configuration and he was not anticipating the strong pitch up that comes with a M20 in that situation that requires an immediate very strong pushing on the yoke (and correcting the flaps) to keep the airplane from pitching up strongly then stalling.  So he had exactly that disaster scenario and nose in to the ground with all on board lost.

The nature of this crash, the position where it crashed near the runway, the new to type pilot, the even higher powered engine than the LKP pilot, makes me wonder if that scenario is a possibility.  I remember several years ago departing Hartford I had somehow not repositioned my flaps to take of position - stupid pilot error - and indeed with my high power engine within 50 ft off the runway the airplane wanted to pitch up dramatically but I was quite used to handling characteristics at that point and instinctively pushed hard - very hard - on the yoke and kept the airplane flying in a perfectly normal angle of attack while I corrected the flaps and trim despite the wrong configuration.

I just don’t see how any M20J has uncontrollable pitch forced during a go around. unless you have a habit of just holding the electric trim all the way in the flare until it hits the up stop which is not the right way to land airplanes anyway.

[toto]

2 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

I would think a panicked pilot can pull through the ESP and stall it.  

Dunno. I've definitely *tried* to stall the plane with ESP enabled, and I failed