Accident in Johnson County Kansas Mooney M20 S

[Guest]

5 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

That big ol' 8 cylinder should be able to handle one of @Marauder girls, Clarence

 I did fly one once who mentioned she was able to cuddle better in a Mooney!  She never rode with me again.

Clarence

[0TreeLemur]

16 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

That big ol' 8 cylinder should be able to handle one of @Marauder girls, Clarence

Who among us didn't see this coming....

[Hank]

18 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

That big ol' 8 cylinder should be able to handle one of @Marauder girls, Clarence

 

2 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Who among us didn't see this coming....

 

13 hours ago, M20Doc said:

 I did fly one once who mentioned she was able to cuddle better in a Mooney!  She never rode with me again.

Clarence

I'm officially afraid of what's coming next . . . . . Please pass the eye bleach!!

[LANCECASPER]

I wonder also if a contributing factor could have been that the M20S (Eagle) does not have rudder trim, unlike the other long bodies with the 6 cylinder engines. If N602TF had been converted from 244hp to either 280hp or 310hp AND the seat had slid back AND now he couldn't reach the rudder or other controls, this would have gone bad in a hurry.

[Davidv]

Just now, LANCECASPER said:

I wonder also if a contributing factor could have been that the M20S (Eagle) does not have rudder trim, unlike the other long bodies with the 6 cylinder engines. If N602TF had been converted from 244hp to either 280hp or 310hp AND the seat had slid back AND now he couldn't reach the rudder or other controls, this would have gone bad in a hurry.

Very interesting, I did not realize this.  I know that if I could not control the right rudder with 270hp on my plane it would put me in a very bad situation.

[LANCECASPER]

Maybe part of the STC to upgrade an M20S to 280 or 310 hp should have been to install rudder trim. Even 244hp with no right rudder would be a handful.

[Davidv]

I'm actually surprised the Mooney picked this item as one of the cost cutting measures for the Eagle.  I know they were trying to make it marginally more affordable than the R (which is an odd strategy to me when you're addressing a market for people can afford a $XXX,000 new aircraft), but this does not seem like one of the areas they should have cut...

[carusoam]

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/01/mooney-m20s-eagle-n602tf-fatal-accident_9.html
 

YouTube video recently circulating...

Covers actual video of the results of the stall, from the neighboring homes...

Then a run-down of the investigation and accident report...

I quickly skimmed through everything... not sure if there were answers or just speculation...

Input was given by DMax and Bob Cabe...

some time spent discussing Huck Bolt AD...

Going through the video again, will take a different day...

RIP,

-a-

[Shadrach]

How does one get insurance to fly a Screaming Eagle with 180TT?  Maybe he was uninsured.  That's a lot of airplane for a new pilot.

[Niko182]

10 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

How does one get insurance to fly a Screaming Eagle with 180TT?  Maybe he was uninsured.  That's a lot of airplane for a new pilot.

I got insured with 134 hours in the eagle. It was on the pricier side for sure but not completely out of reech.

[Shadrach]

Just now, Niko182 said:

I got insured with 134 hours in the eagle. It was on the pricier side for sure but not completely out of reech.

I was insured in my F at 225hours but required 10 in type and before passengers. It was also a bit expensive (relatively) but easy to accept.  This guy was 180TT with 6 in type. seems out of the ordinary.

[Davidv]

8 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

I got insured with 134 hours in the eagle. It was on the pricier side for sure but not completely out of reech.

120 hrs for me in my bravo.  I flew with an instructor until I was absolutely comfortable. 

[Shadrach]

Just now, Davidv said:

120 hrs for me in my bravo.  I flew with an instructor until I was absolutely comfortable. 

Any restriction on passengers?  I wonder if insurance would be as easy to get in this market.

[Niko182]

6 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Any restriction on passengers?  I wonder if insurance would be as easy to get in this market.

Probably not. I needed 10 with a cfi. Since I ferried the plane back with my CFI, i had the 10 before I got back home, and flew another 7 - 10 hours dual until i started flying it solo. After that, the hours started racking up pretty quick. I think I had around 200 to 250 hours that first year with part of that in an again new to me screaming eagle.

[Davidv]

8 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Any restriction on passengers?  I wonder if insurance would be as easy to get in this market.

Nope, I think it was only a 5 or 6 hour instruction requirement? I only had a complex and not a high performance at the time.  I also wonder if it’s changed in the last few years...

[GeeBee]

0 hours logged in the last 6 months and a prescription muscle relaxant (Flexeril) in the blood stream along with Zofran.......hmmmm.

So we have no verification of currency, very low TT, along with what might be impaired operation. No problem there!

 

 

[Hank]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

0 hours logged in the last 6 months and a prescription muscle relaxant (Flexeril) in the blood stream along with Zofran.......hmmmm.

So we have no verification of currency, very low TT, along with what might be impaired operation. No problem there!

      

[carusoam]

His transition trainer gave a description of what he saw...  including the number of hours of training the pilot had just received... and briefly what the training included...

The JPI, connected to the GPS... makes a fantastic black box flight recorder... within reason. KTs ground speed not air speed...

There is only a handful of data points... they seem to show consistent data...  I didn’t see anything that indicated something breaking or going away... along what little flight path there was...

There was rotation at a slow speed near VX and climbing out at Vx and below... when the plane departed flight, it was moving with the wind...

The angle of climb was gigantic as seen in the videos

we are given ground speed, no air speed...

Wind was 10kts from 270° gusting 16kts, strong and direct cross wind

the JPI was set on six second data collection interval...

They share every data point for a minute.

The first data point is on the ground at speed

:00 975’  70kts (gps speed) 178° (heading)

:06 1000’ 76kts 180° (Off the ground, and climbing, ref. Vx 75kias)

:12 1025’ 67kts  180° (slowing)

:18 1125’  63kts 179° (Slower, gained 100’ in 6 seconds, 1kfpm)

:24 1125’  54kts 178° (Dangerously slow, Not climbing, back side of the power curve?)

:30 1125’ 48kts 172° (Misplaced data out of order in video)

:36 1275’  45kts 167° (moving away from the wind, 

:42 1325’ 50kts 135° (+50fpm in six seconds... 500fpm)

:48 1175’ 19kts 103° (no longer flying)

 

Climbing out near Vx into a strong crosswind with gusts... use caution.

Keep in mind, these are data points gleaned from a disjointed video report and may be full of errors by transcription...

The pilot had received top quality maintenance from DMax (PPI), and Transition Training from Bob Cabe...

The 310hp acceleration gives a strange feed back feeling of going fast... something to get used to.  Use the ASI, don’t rely on the feeling...

Questions... (if you know the answer, let me know)

What was the trim set at?

What flap setting was used?

I didn’t see anything that pointed to T/O flaps, or trim setting being incorrect... or if the gear was stowed...

Or the Huck bolt AD wasn’t complied with...

Or anything about the stall warning...

PP explanation of what I gathered from the video report, not a CFI...

RIP,

-a-

[Mooney in Oz]

6 hours ago, carusoam said:

I didn’t see anything that pointed to T/O flaps, or trim setting being incorrect... or if the gear was stowed...

Or the Huck bolt AD wasn’t complied with...

Or anything about the stall warning...

Or a possible seat track issue...

[toto]

Re pilot experience..  it's worth noting that you aren't required to provide flight hours on a medical application.  It's entirely possible that he copied the 180 hours from his private 8710, and left all other values blank.

 

[Niko182]

2 hours ago, Mooney in Oz said:

Or a possible seat track issue...

I thought maybe a combo of a seat track issue while taking off with landing trim.

[KB4]

Take away’s for me since it’s all speculation, let’s mitigate those potential causes in our community.

1. When seat is positioned where you want it—-gently -rock forward then back to FEEL you are hooked. I do this religiously because I had seat slip back when pushed rudder to turn while taxiing. Happy it happened on taxi. 
 

2. Run-up— Exercise the Trim stop to stop.  Admittedly I slack here. But not so moving forward.

3. A MS’er /A&P/AI posts pics and guidance on that AD from 2012.  Hope all have complied, but again?

 

[ArtVandelay]

Take away’s for me since it’s all speculation, let’s mitigate those potential causes in our community.
1. When seat is positioned where you want it—-gently -rock forward then back to FEEL you are hooked. I do this religiously because I had seat slip back when pushed rudder to turn while taxiing. Happy it happened on taxi. 
 
2. Run-up— Exercise the Trim stop to stop.  Admittedly I slack here. But not so moving forward.
3. A MS’er /A&P/AI posts pics and guidance on that AD from 2012.  Hope all have complied, but again?
 

1. I had it happen on takeoff during transition training, but it wasn’t when I needed to climb at Vx rate, so a non issue if trim is adjusted correctly.
2. The J can get into trim lock if you do this unless you performed the AD. So if you had it trimmed for landing and went to full stop and didn’t adjust for takeoff you would get exactly what happen here. If the trim is in takeoff position (middle) you’ll be able to manhandle it back to the airport.
3. Unfortunately the Js AD requires a few AMUs in parts, personally I just be careful not to over trim.

[Cruiser]

If the seat slid back the pilot would instinctively try to stop the travel by pulling on the yoke. (don't ask how I know this)

it would not matter where the trim was set. 

Unless there was a co-pilot to take over control and the pilot let go of the yoke this is exactly the outcome to expect.

Did the report mention anything about the pilot seat location ? 

What about the trim setting ? 

[gsxrpilot]

13 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

If the seat slid back the pilot would instinctively try to stop the travel by pulling on the yoke. (don't ask how I know this)

This is why my right hand is on the center bar above the glare shield on take off. It's very unlikely that my throttle/prop/mixture vernier controls will move by themselves, or quickly in any case. And there will be lots of indicators if they do start to move at all. But the seat letting go, would be an instant event.