First post: Falcon can't find me an underwriter!

[Nukemzzz]

There is a long and crazy story behind all of this but I'm going to cut to the chase... 

I'm in the process of purchasing a 1966 M20e from my sister and have plans to train for my PPL in this aircraft.  I'm working on the details of getting it to Indiana from Northern Florida and I've located a hangar.  Today I hit a snag in my plans.... I requested an insurance quote from Falcon and just called to see why I've not heard anything and they told me the following:

• 10 underwriters have refused me and I'm probably not insurable at this moment.
• The market is changing fast right now, prices are climbing, underwriters are becoming more picky.
• Retractable gear is an issue for me getting insured
• Vintage Mooney is an issue because parts are hard to find and I quote: "hangar rash can be a total loss"

I hired an instructor to let me fly it around last week to verify that I wanted to buy it.  I liked it and I'm ready to go but I'm worried I'm going to have to train in a rental before I can get this thing.  

Side note... I'm sorry, but I don't see how a constant speed prop and retractable gear are considered "complex".  I like that I can control RPM with one knob and power with another, and It's harder to turn my washing mashing on at the house then to put this gear down!  Maybe "complex" is just being over dramatic? :-)

My background, as this matters some for insurance:

• 42yrs young
• No medical issues or risks
• Professional Mechanical Engineering (Currently an Engineering Manager) 
• Beyond perfect credit rating...maxed out.
• My father is a pilot and I rode all over the country with him my whole life.  I understand more than the average person...just need to formalize things and finally get my licence.

Anyone else have an issue getting insurance in a Vintage Mooney lately?  How about Insurance in a complex high performance rated plane as a Student?  Is the latter my real issue?

Crazy post to start off with on this forum I know.  If you all can help me out I'll have a Mooney in a couple of weeks and I'll hang out here more in the future!

 

[thinwing]

Sorry for your trouble getting Insurence.well as I see it ,you have 2 choices considering you lack a pilots license.Pay cash for the thing ( or work out owner financing from your sister with no asset protection)and go bare till you get a ppl.Forget the purchase for now till after ppl.

[rbridges]

maybe @Parker_Woodruff could give you some insight.  He's our resident insurance expert.

[thinwing]

Maybe rb but 10 underwriters (companies)say no thanks..I don’t think he is insurable at this time

[thinwing]

On a related note...I met the new owner of this nice Maule who purchased it pre ppl.He was having trouble finding an examiner do to no Insurence.

[Ragsf15e]

Liability only for now maybe?  Parker will have ideas.

what about insuring your instructor, then you just fly without it on your solos?

no matter what, it’s gonna be expensive to insure for training.

[Nukemzzz]

Thanks for the replies!

 

Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t I need at least liability to be legal?  Maybe I should try hull value $0?

[Ragsf15e]

Insurance is desired, but not required.  Your instructor is gonna want to be protected somehow.

A bank will require it if you finance the airplane.

[gsxrpilot]

There's no law that requires any insurance on a personal airplane, like is required for a car.

[Parker_Woodruff]

The market is tightening.  It could be a challenge.  If obtained, a quote will be expensive.

I recently quoted a vintage Mooney to a student pilot and it was over $4000 annually.

Parker@airspeedinsurance.com

214-295-5055

[David Lloyd]

If you lease a tiedown or hangar at many airports, part of the lease agreement may require liability insurance.  Small airports may have no such requirement.

[thinwing]

40 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Liability only for now maybe?  Parker will have ideas.

what about insuring your instructor, then you just fly without it on your solos?

no matter what, it’s gonna be expensive to insure for training.

My Insurence guy says the insured has to have an insurable interest in the aircraft,so that leaves the instructor out...

[Ragsf15e]

51 minutes ago, thinwing said:

My Insurence guy says the insured has to have an insurable interest in the aircraft,so that leaves the instructor out...

Yeah, that makes sense.

[corn_flake]

Set up rent-to-buy agreement with your sister.  Buy rental insurance during private training.  AOPA is a good place to start for rental insurance.  

[corn_flake]

2 hours ago, Nukemzzz said:

 

Anyone else have an issue getting insurance in a Vintage Mooney lately?  How about Insurance in a complex high performance rated plane as a Student?  Is the latter my real issue?

 

 

One more thing.  Most M20E shouldn't be a high performance unless it got a turbo or some other mod.  High performance is defined as 201 HP or more.  M20E is only rated for 200 ponies. 

[Hank]

Yeah, most of our Mooneys aren't high performance, but even my C sure flies like it is!

The official FAA definition of complex aircraft is one that has retractable gear, flaps and adjustable pitch propellor. It has nothing to do with how complicated the plane or any of its parts may happen to be.

[Parker_Woodruff]

22 minutes ago, corn_flake said:

Set up rent-to-buy agreement with your sister.  Buy rental insurance during private training.  AOPA is a good place to start for rental insurance.  

That won't cover the sister's liability or provide primary coverage for her.  Renter's (non-owned) insurance is designed to defend the policyholder, not the aircraft owner.  This means they most often will not voluntarily pay a claimant unless it's settling in a case where there is clear negligence on the part of the non-owned policyholder.

[corn_flake]

Perhaps your sister can continue her liability coverage on top of OP's renter's insurance?  

[bonal]

Are you trying to get the hull covered and for how much value. If so you might try just getting liability coverage until you get your PPL and have your instructor listed on the policy since you won't be PIC initially while you are training.

[flight2000]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

There's no law that requires any insurance on a personal airplane, like is required for a car.

Paul, I wish that were true, but Virginia law requires it if the plane is based and licensed in VA.  It's going to be a state by state thing.  Most don't but some do.

"Current Virginia law requires proof of financial responsibility.  (See Virginia Code sections 5.1-88.1 and §5.1-88.2, Ex-300).  This is a prerequisite to licensure of aircraft, which translates into limits of $50,000/$100,000/$25,000; or a single limit policy providing $250,000 coverage, including passenger liability of $50,000 per passenger seat."

Brian

[Browncbr1]

2 hours ago, thinwing said:

My Insurence guy says the insured has to have an insurable interest in the aircraft,so that leaves the instructor out...

I don’t think that’s true.  I named my instructor on my policy when I was getting my ppl in the mooney.     A non pilot baron owner here has me insured to fly his baron.   

[Tony Starke]

15 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

I don’t think that’s true.  I named my instructor on my policy when I was getting my ppl in the mooney.     A non pilot baron owner here has me insured to fly his baron.   

Yes, I have my instructor named on my policy as well as “all pilots whether named or flying under open pilot warranty”. Must be current with flight reviews and medical, pilot certificate and ratings. Category, class and type and meet or exceed 300 hours, 20 retract and 10 in make and model. Just paid renewal, $1600 for $80k hull value.

 

[gsxrpilot]

47 minutes ago, flight2000 said:

Paul, I wish that were true, but Virginia law requires it if the plane is based and licensed in VA.  It's going to be a state by state thing.  Most don't but some do.

"Current Virginia law requires proof of financial responsibility.  (See Virginia Code sections 5.1-88.1 and §5.1-88.2, Ex-300).  This is a prerequisite to licensure of aircraft, which translates into limits of $50,000/$100,000/$25,000; or a single limit policy providing $250,000 coverage, including passenger liability of $50,000 per passenger seat."

That's very interesting. I did not know that. I wonder how many states have similar laws.

[David_H]

The GA insurance market appears to currently be in uncharted territory.

At one end of the market high time pilots that have been preferred in the recent past are moving into the +75 age market at a faster pace. It appears as though many Underwriters have a low interest in insuring those pilots. These are the same pilots that have paid large sums of money to the insurance industry over the span of many years. Its very sad.

At the other end of the market are pilots with low complex time. Underwriters don't appear to be interested in those pilots either. Its no surprise that Underwriters appear to be trying find ways to hedge their bets on both ends of the GA market. This doesn't appear to be sustainable with the shrinking pilot population on both ends of the GA market.

What do you think is coming next @Parker_Woodruff? I'll ask for a 5yr outlook... but will very happily settle for a 1-2yr outlook. The insurance market for GA is an ugly mess at the moment and doesn't show signs of being able to continue in it's current state due to the aging (and shrinking) pilot population.

[Tony Starke]

1 hour ago, flight2000 said:

Paul, I wish that were true, but Virginia law requires it if the plane is based and licensed in VA.  It's going to be a state by state thing.  Most don't but some do.

"Current Virginia law requires proof of financial responsibility.  (See Virginia Code sections 5.1-88.1 and §5.1-88.2, Ex-300).  This is a prerequisite to licensure of aircraft, which translates into limits of $50,000/$100,000/$25,000; or a single limit policy providing $250,000 coverage, including passenger liability of $50,000 per passenger seat."

Brian

Ah Virginia, I empty my relief tube every time I overfly Virginny. What a corrupt state when it comes to traffic laws. Radar detectors are illegal and the highway patrol works their system of speed traps to take advantage of out of state plates. Mandatory court dates that require one to hire counsel on ones behalf. Money grabbing sons a beeches. Virginia will never again get a red cent of my tourist dollars.