Help appreciated comparing Mooneys

[mike_s]

Hi,

This is my first post here! A bit of information to start. I've been looking at Mooneys for a bit now. I've never owned an airplane so the process is new to me and so of course I'm a bit cautious. I've found these 2 and was hoping someone here could help me decide which one might be the better way to go. I live in Minnesota and so the one in Florida is a bit more difficult to get to and I've heard that the Florida weather can be rough on them, but no idea if that is true or not. Any advice is appreciated!

http://aircraftownershipsolutions.com/inventory/1977+mooney+m20j+201+n6188a/165

http://airplanesusa.com/?planes=1981-mooney-m20j

 

[Bob - S50]

Can't say I'm a fan of the panel layout on either airplane.

The first one is a '77 model.  I prefer the push pull engine controls rather than the levers on the '77 models.  Also, I don't like the placement of the fuel selector between my feet on the '77.  That's what the PVC gadget on the right is for.  My question about the panel would be why did they move the VSI over to be under the G5 ADI and put the second G5 HSI where the VSI normally goes?  I'd want to fix that so I'd have to evaluate how much that would cost.  Nice useful load, assuming it's accurate.  Other than that, it looks pretty good.  Since it has the GNS430W, at some point in the future I'd probably replace that with an Avidyne IFD440 which is a plug in replacement.

The second one is newer.  No mention of the useful load.  Be sure to ask.  I don't like having the VSI way over on the left instead of under the altimeter.  Fixing that panel looks more expensive than the other.  Old avionics and not ADS-B compliant.  If you live someplace where you'll need that you'll need to spend some coins to fix that.  Cheapest and probably the quickest would be the Skybeacon.

Damage history on both of them.  If you get serious about either one be sure to have a competent Mooney mechanic check the repairs.

To me, the '77 looks like the better value but I'd don't know if I could learn to live with the fuel selector placement.

Good luck.

[KB4]

Where logs are unclear as to the actual damage—run run away from that 1.

Increase your budget slightly and get a J that has not had prop strike and or gear collapse, 1 that has no damage history NDH    Or a minor issue only, no gear up’s. You don’t want a pandora box of hidden problems. I will say the 77 had Annual by Maxwell. He has a good reputation, but still . . .  

As fleet size shrinks, prices on J’s will continue to increase.  IMHO I don’t see J’s with NDH depreciating anytime soon

[ChrisV]

I like the newer one.  Although it would take time to get used to that panel.  Not sure about the engine on the newer one, but 10 extra HP!  It looks like it was updated with speed and comfort in mind and that is what these planes are all about.

[Mooneymite]

I think Garmin said it would no longer support the CNX80.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

I think Garmin said it would no longer support the CNX80.

Sadly as of June of this year they ended support for the CX80/GNS480 series navigators.

Clarence

[mike_s]

I was wondering what that PVC pipe was for, looked pretty odd there, thanks for the info Bob. Think I will go in the direction of increasing the budget as suggested by KB4 even if that means waiting. It's hard to find one that is nice in the 90K range. Sure seems to get better at 115K and up. Thanks to everyone for the feedback!

[ArtVandelay]

Where logs are unclear as to the actual damage—run run away from that 1.
Increase your budget slightly and get a J that has not had prop strike and or gear collapse, 1 that has no damage history NDH    Or a minor issue only, no gear up’s. You don’t want a pandora box of hidden problems. I will say the 77 had Annual by Maxwell. He has a good reputation, but still . . .  
As fleet size shrinks, prices on J’s will continue to increase.  IMHO I don’t see J’s with NDH depreciating anytime soon

What qualifies as damage that matters if repaired?
Overtow?
Hangar rash?
Minor surface corrosion?
Hail?
Bird strike?

I doubt you can find a 40 year old plane that hasn’t been damaged at some point in its life. As long as it was fixed properly what does it matter? Especially if it wasn’t recent?


Tom

[gsxrpilot]

NDH is nice to find but pretty far down my wish list. In fact, I'd much rather have a regularly flown plane with a couple of properly repaired gear-ups in it's logs, than a NDH hangar queen.

[MIm20c]

I’ve put my eyes on three J’s in the past year (while looking at other aircraft) that were good values and solid aircraft in the 85-90k range. Don’t kid yourself that bumping the budget will alone bring home a nicer plane. I’ve seen so many over priced examples in the over 120k region lately that it would be hard to help a buyer find a good one. Keep watching the market and pay attention to the ones that sell quickly. 

[Mcstealth]

On 10/5/2019 at 7:29 PM, mike_s said:

Hi,

This is my first post here! A bit of information to start. I've been looking at Mooneys for a bit now. I've never owned an airplane so the process is new to me and so of course I'm a bit cautious. I've found these 2 and was hoping someone here could help me decide which one might be the better way to go. I live in Minnesota and so the one in Florida is a bit more difficult to get to and I've heard that the Florida weather can be rough on them, but no idea if that is true or not. Any advice is appreciated!

http://aircraftownershipsolutions.com/inventory/1977+mooney+m20j+201+n6188a/165

http://airplanesusa.com/?planes=1981-mooney-m20j

 

Welcome to the forum. Good luck on your search. Please post a hello on the General board and tell us about yourself and your mission. 

Thanks for joining. 

David 

[Mufflerbearing]

You are just starting an awesome adventure!  I spent so much time here learning, well, everything.  I began where I didn't know what I didn't know and now I know what I don't know and pretty soon, I'll become somewhat competent in what I know.  This site has helped me with my search in my plane that I purchased last month which I searched for about 8 months. 

These are awesome planes.  Take your time and look at a bunch and figure out your main mission will be.  There is a Mooney for that. 

One thing I learned that I feel was important is to spend time with the prior owner also.  Getting to know them will help you build confidence in your decision about their plane.  I now have a relationship with the prior owner of my plane.  They invested money, heart, and soul into this plane and it is a part of them.  I am just the next caretaker of this awesome machine's history.

[RogueOne]

On 10/6/2019 at 10:46 AM, KB4 said:

Where logs are unclear as to the actual damage—run run away from that 1.

Increase your budget slightly and get a J that has not had prop strike and or gear collapse, 1 that has no damage history NDH    Or a minor issue only, no gear up’s. You don’t want a pandora box of hidden problems. I will say the 77 had Annual by Maxwell. He has a good reputation, but still . . .  

As fleet size shrinks, prices on J’s will continue to increase.  IMHO I don’t see J’s with NDH depreciating anytime soon

What “Pandora’s box” is opened by an airframe having a gear up in its history?  Give me the specific concerns you have:

And begin...

I am being serious I want you to tell me what you mean by that comment.

[Vance Harral]

Just one guy's opinion, but I think past a certain age point, a "no damage history" ad starts to look negative rather than positive.  The reason is that old airplanes are extremely unlikely to have zero non-wear-and-tear damage events.  NDH claims on such airframes make me think the seller is either naive, or outright dishonest.  A circa 1980 airframe is 40 years old at this point, and 40-year-old airplanes nearly always have least minor damage events: couple of hail dents, a little hangar rash, a patch where a cowl screw or inspection panel pulled through due to over-tightening, and so on.  I'm sure a number of those airplanes have never been crashed into a hangar or gear-upped, but that's not the same as NDH.

Each person has to decide for themselves if an NDH claim is legit, but I'm quite certain there are more NDH claims in ads than their are actual NDH airframes.  I think we'd all be a little better off if the NDH purists admitted that philosophy is only practical on new-ish airframes.  It would go a long way toward combating the incentive for owners to fudge or omit logbook entries.

[PTK]

On 10/5/2019 at 8:29 PM, mike_s said:

Hi,

This is my first post here! A bit of information to start. I've been looking at Mooneys for a bit now. I've never owned an airplane so the process is new to me and so of course I'm a bit cautious. I've found these 2 and was hoping someone here could help me decide which one might be the better way to go. I live in Minnesota and so the one in Florida is a bit more difficult to get to and I've heard that the Florida weather can be rough on them, but no idea if that is true or not. Any advice is appreciated!

http://aircraftownershipsolutions.com/inventory/1977+mooney+m20j+201+n6188a/165

http://airplanesusa.com/?planes=1981-mooney-m20j

 

You can take a plane out of Florida, but you can’t take Florida out of an airplane. 

[PTK]

On 10/6/2019 at 11:46 AM, KB4 said:

Where logs are unclear as to the actual damage—run run away from that 1.

Increase your budget slightly and get a J that has not had prop strike and or gear collapse, 1 that has no damage history NDH    Or a minor issue only, no gear up’s. You don’t want a pandora box of hidden problems. I will say the 77 had Annual by Maxwell. He has a good reputation, but still . . .  

As fleet size shrinks, prices on J’s will continue to increase.  IMHO I don’t see J’s with NDH depreciating anytime soon

You are correct, it can be a Pandora’s box. Owners/sellers of geared up planes will of course tell you it’s a non issue, it has been repaired and documented properly, bla bla bla. The decision has to be made by you the buyer and the question boils down to this: do you really want to pay for an airplane that has DH? Irrespective of the price. It will always be in your mind every time you fly the thing. It is also the one thing that negatively affects its value and you can do nothing about. Like location location location in real estate. My personal opinion: I’d never even look at a geared up plane. There are plenty of NDH candidates. No matter what anyone wants you to believe. 

[gsxrpilot]

16 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

The reason is that old airplanes are extremely unlikely to have zero non-wear-and-tear damage events.  NDH claims on such airframes make me think the seller is either naive, or outright dishonest.

Or worse, it's a hangar queen and hasn't flown much at all.

[gsxrpilot]

Each of my two Mooneys had been gear-upped three times prior to my ownership. It was of  no concern to me at purchase  or at anytime since. And it certainly didn't effect resale on the first one.

[Vance Harral]

Our airplane (the one in my avatar) was gear-upped and repaired in 1991.  It was not a significant concern when we purchased it in 2004, and I can't recall ever once worrying about it in the 15 years of ownership since.  The incident is well documented in the logs, was pointed out by the honest seller, and we paid a price in accordance with that event and others.

When it comes time to sell, we'll be similarly honest with prospective buyers, and accept the fact some of them may choose to use a 30-year-old gear up incident as a price negotiating point.  Whether it actually has any impact on the sales price will just be a matter of market conditions - maybe none, but maybe some, and in the latter case I wouldn't begrudge anyone offering a slightly lower price based on the gear-up.

I would feel uncomfortable selling to anyone who felt a 30-year-old gear up in a 45-year old airplane was actually a meaningful safety risk, as opposed to just a price negotiation tactic.  It would indicate they don't understand the nature of old aircraft - or aircraft ownership in general - and would be likely to harass us about every imperfection anyone found in the airframe for years after the sale.

[jgarrison]

46 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

I would feel uncomfortable selling to anyone who felt a 30-year-old gear up in a 45-year old airplane was actually a meaningful safety risk, as opposed to just a price negotiation tactic.  It would indicate they don't understand the nature of old aircraft - or aircraft ownership in general - and would be likely to harass us about every imperfection anyone found in the airframe for years after the sale.

Quality words right there.

[KB4]

On 10/8/2019 at 12:54 PM, RogueOne said:

What “Pandora’s box” is opened by an airframe having a gear up in its history?  Give me the specific concerns you have:

And begin...

I am being serious I want you to tell me what you mean by that comment.

Couple thousand pounds slamming into the ground...

Why would I when there is plenty inventory that has not sustained that kind of damage.  Here is just one example I quickly found from Oct. 19' MAPA Log

 

[KB4]

On 10/6/2019 at 10:36 PM, gsxrpilot said:

NDH is nice to find but pretty far down my wish list. In fact, I'd much rather have a regularly flown plane with a couple of properly repaired gear-ups in it's logs, than a NDH hangar queen.

Okay but I don’t think I ever mentioned a hanger queen.

It’s was a gear up plane or not.  

So I’ll take a hanger queen over your couple of properly repaired gear-ups that is leaking fuel...  

[RogueOne]

Some get it.  Some don’t.  Not worth the effort.

[PTK]

On 10/8/2019 at 3:25 PM, Vance Harral said:

I would feel uncomfortable selling to anyone who felt a 30-year-old gear up in a 45-year old airplane was actually a meaningful safety risk, as opposed to just a price negotiation tactic.  It would indicate they don't understand the nature of old aircraft - or aircraft ownership in general - and would be likely to harass us about every imperfection anyone found in the airframe for years after the sale.

I would feel very uncomfortable and wouldn't even look at a geared up plane because I've yet to see one that wasn't "properly repaired."  It is a huge unknown and therefore a safety risk.

"Textron Lycoming must take the position that in the case of a sudden engine stoppage, propeller/rotor strike or loss of propeller/rotor blade or tip, the safest procedure is to remove and disassemble the engine and completely inspect the reciprocating and rotating parts including crankshaft gear and dowel parts. Any decision to operate an engine, which was involved in a sudden stoppage, propeller/rotor strike or loss of propeller/rotor blade or tip without such an inspection must be the responsibility of the agency returning the aircraft to service." 

So who decides? I disagree with Lycoming's position because they leave the decision open. What they should do is require the engine be replaced. 

No need to assume that type of risk when there is plenty of NDH inventory.

[Davidv]

I'm not an expert on the topic, but teardown does not equal overhaul.  If the strike happened prior to the last overhaul I'd feel a lot more comfortable than just saying the engine was taken apart and inspected.