Surefly electronic ignition question

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

I wonder if 28° is the maximum or is it +3° above factory specs.

It's 38 deg max. From the SureFly website:

"For non-turbocharged engines, SureFly controls spark advance up to 38º before TDC as determined by manifold pressure and RPM (engine power setting). Each engine's base timing advance is read off the data plate and set into the SureFly Ignition Module or, "SIM" at installation.   The timing advance schedule is hard set at the factory,  when the SIM is manufactured, to provide the highest possible combustion efficiency."

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[ArtVandelay]

How do you get to use a 2 degree tolerance?  The engine data plate data sent show one.
Clarence

An AP told me up to +/-2° is allowed.


Tom

[PT20J]

26 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

I wonder if 28° is the maximum or is it +3° above factory specs.

Frankly I can’t get excited by +3°, especially since I can legally set timing to 22° on a 20° factory limited engine, so it’s 1°. So now it’s a question of what’s more dependable.


Tom

How do you get to use a 2 degree tolerance?  The engine data plate data sent show one.

Clarence

I assume you are confusing the common practice of some mechanics of not adjusting the timing if the mags are with two degrees of the timing mark with purposely adjusting the setting on the advanced side. There's no "legal" basis for that that I'm aware of.

Note if you install a SureFly to replace the mag with the impulse coupling, it will take care of the lag angle and you can set an IO-360 to 25 deg and change the data plate.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

An AP told me up to +/-2° is allowed.


Tom

From my read of the Lycoming manual the 2 degree tolerance is applicable to D2000/3000 series magnetos. Independent magnetos are to be synchronized at the correct timing mark.

Clarence

[McMooney]

woot, 10+ hours of flying coming up this weekend, anyone have any ideas on how to get the most out of the surefly?

I generally fly between 9000 and 14000( fly over those pesky) class B's.  2300 to 2500 rpm, wot and whatever mp I get.

thinking, I should fly the same but lean to just lean of peak.

If I can make kdwh -> keye  without a fuel stop, i'd consider this a success.  with favorable winds of course.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

From my read of the Lycoming manual the 2 degree tolerance is applicable to D2000/3000 series magnetos. Independent magnetos are to be synchronized at the correct timing mark.

Clarence

 

Even more reason to have the dual mag!   You can actually run +27 degrees! 

And we actually covered that just today in A&P school, that there is no tolerance specified for ignition timing (for non-dual mags).   It is expected to be set accurately.

[carusoam]

Austin to Indy... 740nm...?

LOP and Vz...

Got Some Cies fuel gauges and a good FF instrument to support the long flight? and a decent JPI to collect/display data along the way?

Do you have more than 52gallons on board to fly with?

In typical LOP mode in a short body Mooney, 18mpg is possible (statute miles) and no winds....

740nm is about 850mi... 850/18... 47+ gallons....

Too close to Expect everything to work perfectly well... but within the window of success if everything works as planned...

Double and triple check the math before and after departure...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI at all...

Best regards,

-a-

[J0nathan225]

@Bob_Belville how's the install coming? 

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, J0nathan225 said:

@Bob_Belville how's the install coming? 

Hi Jon, the installation went very well. Lynn and I are really pleased. We had company this week end so I have not reinstalled the interior side panels or flown yet so no performance pirep but I did run it on the ramp.

Starting was perfect - started in about one rev. I then got it hot and shut it down, waited about 20 minutes to simulate a fuel stop restart. Again it started immediately. I shut it down and restarted 4 or 5 times - behaved like a DMax hot start instructional video!

One little oddity. Upon shut down when the engine is killed, by pulling mixture to cutoff, as the RPM drops below 300 the engine comes back to life! It eventually stops but it dies hard.

I believe what''s happening it that the SEM switches back from 20 BTDC to TDC when the RMP drops which is the startup timing. So, as occurs doing a hot start, there's enough fuel vapor to "restart"!

I think there are 3 steps I can take at shut down as the engine is trying to die: 1) push in the throttle to throw in enough air to ruin the fuel/air ratio, 2) turn off the switch, 3) turn off the left "mag" which is the SEM. 

[takair]

11 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Hi Jon, the installation went very well. Lynn and I are really pleased. We had company this week end so I have not reinstalled the interior side panels or flown yet so no performance pirep but I did run it on the ramp.

Starting was perfect - started in about one rev. I then got it hot and shut it down, waited about 20 minutes to simulate a fuel stop restart. Again it started immediately. I shut it down and restarted 4 or 5 times - behaved like a DMax hot start instructional video!

One little oddity. Upon shut down when the engine is killed, by pulling mixture to cutoff, as the RPM drops below 300 the engine comes back to life! It eventually stops but it dies hard.

I believe what''s happening it that the SEM switches back from 20 BTDC to TDC when the RMP drops which is the startup timing. So, as occurs doing a hot start, there's enough fuel vapor to "restart"!

I think there are 3 steps I can take at shut down as the engine is trying to die: 1) push in the throttle to throw in enough air to ruin the fuel/air ratio, 2) turn off the switch, 3) turn off the left "mag" which is the SEM. 

Bob

i have not experienced what you are describing ref. Shut down.  Might be worth trying to have them lean your idle mixture.  I’ve been running mine at zero rise and it makes for a clean shut down.  I pull the mixture to cut off rather slowly, not sure if that makes a difference.

[Bob_Belville]

11 minutes ago, takair said:

Bob

i have not experienced what you are describing ref. Shut down.  Might be worth trying to have them lean your idle mixture.  I’ve been running mine at zero rise and it makes for a clean shut down.  I pull the mixture to cut off rather slowly, not sure if that makes a difference.

I'll try that. I lean aggressively on the ground already but probably not during the start/stop sequence I was playing with.  

[McMooney]

13 hours ago, takair said:

Bob

i have not experienced what you are describing ref. Shut down.  Might be worth trying to have them lean your idle mixture.  I’ve been running mine at zero rise and it makes for a clean shut down.  I pull the mixture to cut off rather slowly, not sure if that makes a difference.

Same, mine shuts down clean.  

couple quick notes,  I ran for 10+ hrs last weekend@ 11k.2350rpm.22inhg out and 8k.2350rpm.23inhg back.  unfortunately, due to the autopilot going completely nonfunctional, I really didn't take exceptional notes but i'd say it runs a bit stronger.

AS i'm a nubz when it comes to lop operations,  what is it supposed to feel like ?  Is running LOP supposed to be smooth or slightly rough?

I tried lop but my engine goes peak, to slightly rough really quickly.

[takair]

19 minutes ago, McMooney said:

Same, mine shuts down clean.  

couple quick notes,  I ran for 10+ hrs last weekend@ 11k.2350rpm.22inhg out and 8k.2350rpm.23inhg back.  unfortunately, due to the autopilot going completely nonfunctional, I really didn't take exceptional notes but i'd say it runs a bit stronger.

AS i'm a nubz when it comes to lop operations,  what is it supposed to feel like ?  Is running LOP supposed to be smooth or slightly rough?

I tried lop but my engine goes peak, to slightly rough really quickly.

Rough hints at the flows being unbalanced.  At least on that particular power setting.  How far LOP did you go.  There is a rapid drop off as you start going beyond about 25.

[Bob_Belville]

We had to make adjustments to idle settings, wound up leaning 2 full turns on the screw. 

Engine starts in less than 1 revolution cold or hot. I suppose I had not noticed how much the SOS had gradually weakened.

Lynn @AGL Aviationdid the install and is impressed. He expects this to be a popular upgrade. Figure about 6 hours which involves running a wire from the battery so probably means R&R of the interior panels. 

So my total cost is under 2 AMU less what I can sell the replaced Mag for.  

Hope to fly tomorrow.

 

[McMooney]

On 8/27/2019 at 11:31 PM, carusoam said:

Austin to Indy... 740nm...?

LOP and Vz...

Got Some Cies fuel gauges and a good FF instrument to support the long flight? and a decent JPI to collect/display data along the way?

Do you have more than 52gallons on board to fly with?

In typical LOP mode in a short body Mooney, 18mpg is possible (statute miles) and no winds....

740nm is about 850mi... 850/18... 47+ gallons....

Too close to Expect everything to work perfectly well... but within the window of success if everything works as planned...

Double and triple check the math before and after departure...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI at all...

Best regards,

-a-

what is Vz

[carusoam]

4 hours ago, McMooney said:

what is Vz

 

Something I copied from a search....

For mostefficiency ... read up onVz ... Karsen’s/carson’s (?)speed... get used to flying slower...efficiency is very much about reducing drag. Normally aspirated NA engines lose MP with altitude... it is hard to fly over square when you can only generate 20” of MP... The latest POH...

For more....

https://mooneyspace.com/search/?q=Carson’s speed&updated_after=any&sortby=relevancy&search_and_or=and

MS has a Vz person...who wrote a college thesis... whose name isn’t hard to remember... until after midnight. 

Find @testwest... Norman Howell.   Norman has shared some interesting aviation knowledge that he has gained along the way...

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

Not an FAA defined V-speed. Most efficient (by one measure) climb speed Vz = 1.32 x Vy.

IntroducingVz.pdf

 

[cliffy]

That is one GOOD paper to read. Long and detailed, not for the faint of heart to read but what great information it contains and I'm not done with it yet, WOW is all I can say. What an education contained therein!

[Ragsf15e]

On 9/10/2019 at 3:32 PM, Bob_Belville said:

We had to make adjustments to idle settings, wound up leaning 2 full turns on the screw. 

Engine starts in less than 1 revolution cold or hot. I suppose I had not noticed how much the SOS had gradually weakened.

Lynn @AGL Aviationdid the install and is impressed. He expects this to be a popular upgrade. Figure about 6 hours which involves running a wire from the battery so probably means R&R of the interior panels. 

So my total cost is under 2 AMU less what I can sell the replaced Mag for.  

Hope to fly tomorrow.

 

Bob, how’s the new mag been working?

[Bob_Belville]

1 minute ago, Ragsf15e said:

Bob, how’s the new mag been working?

On another thread here I have posted a preliminary pirep on the SureFly SEM4N.

I am very impressed. Engine starts like an automobile - cold, hot, flooded. The fire is clearly more potent. 

I have only had a couple of brief flights but on the last one once I was at 8500' I slowly turned back the mixture to 7 gph. I was LOP by 75-57-49-56 with a gami spread of 0.2 gph. Paul @kortopates (Savvy) says it looks very good. 

I will get a better chance to build more data flying to Summit Thursday though Nancy might not be too excited about leaning to roughness and doing a LOP mag check, particularly when the right mag is on its own. 

Lynn is installing another SureFly SEM today. A Mooney though I did not go in the shop to find out who... I know several owners either scheduled an installation or plan to.

After the first one Lynn thought it should be about 6 hours. 

I'll be selling a 472 hours since new Slick 4345 mag. 

 

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

On another thread here I have posted a preliminary pirep on the SureFly SEM4N.

I am very impressed. Engine starts like an automobile - cold, hot, flooded. The fire is clearly more potent. 

I have only had a couple of brief flights but on the last one once I was at 8500' I slowly turned back the mixture to 7 gph. I was LOP by 75-57-49-56 with a gami spread of 0.2 gph. Paul @kortopates (Savvy) says it looks very good. 

I will get a better chance to build more data flying to Summit Thursday though Nancy might not be too excited about leaning to roughness and doing a LOP mag check, particularly when the right mag is on its own. 

Lynn is installing another SureFly SEM today. A Mooney though I did not go in the shop to find out who... I know several owners either scheduled an installation or plan to.

After the first one Lynn thought it should be about 6 hours. 

I'll be selling a 472 hours since new Slick 4345 mag. 

 

Thanks!

[wishboneash]

I had a Surefly mag installed on my 201 yesterday. Replaced right mag with a SIM4N. Left is an impulse coupled mag which just got overhauled at a little over 500hrs. All spark plugs are Tempest massives. Only have started it a couple of times so far, but it starts quickly and easily within a few revolutions. RPM drop is around 50 on the Surefly and the temp rise is much slower when switching to single mag at altitude. LOP operations appear to be much smoother (FF difference is around 0.1 gph) but now I can do deeper into LOP without stumbling. I have not run it above 5,500 ft so I can't comment on higher altitude performance. There appears to be no increased power/speed performance but engine is decidedly smoother overall. No shutdown issues but a very slight hiccup when switching to the R mag.

[Niko182]

2 hours ago, wishboneash said:

I had a Surefly mag installed on my 201 yesterday. Replaced right mag with a SIM4N. Left is an impulse coupled mag which just got overhauled at a little over 500hrs. All spark plugs are Tempest massives. Only have started it a couple of times so far, but it starts quickly and easily within a few revolutions. RPM drop is around 50 on the Surefly and the temp rise is much slower when switching to single mag at altitude. LOP operations appear to be much smoother (FF difference is around 0.1 gph) but now I can do deeper into LOP without stumbling. I have not run it above 5,500 ft so I can't comment on higher altitude performance. There appears to be no increased power/speed performance but engine is decidedly smoother overall. No shutdown issues but a very slight hiccup when switching to the R mag.

Isnt the rpm supposed to drop like 300rpm when the eis is turned off?

[wishboneash]

300 rpm? That's excessive by any measure. I haven't had much time yet with the new mag and hope to quantify things a little more as I get longer flights under my belt.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

[DXB]

I’m reviving this thread - lots of good info here.  Any Surefly install / post install PIREPs from folks with carb’d O-360s with the shower of sparks systems?   
 

My Bendix mags are past due for their 500hr service at annual next month, and I am very close to deciding to replace the left one with Surefly.  

I am curious to hear about install details, potential snags, and observed benefits for starting, power, leaning.

I understand that I’ll need a new Slick harness for the left side?  

Can it interface with my JPI EDM900 tachometer?  The JPI pickup that goes in the right mag vent plug has been finicky.

Edited November 19, 2019 by DXB