2 Mooneys Touch Mid-Air Inbound to OSH?

[Alan Fox]

29 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Someone should measure how many inches are between the wing root and the propeller tips.   and the aft rudder to the airilon

Just to be clear , A wingtip struck an elevator , Draw yourself a picture , and realize , that this was beyond luck....

[Alan Fox]

34 minutes ago, Hank said:

Is that so? All that has been disclosed is that two non-specified parts of two particular Mooneys contacted each other in flight somewhere between Madison and Osh. Nobody who knows what happened is saying anythingat all . . . . 

          --"King of the Mushrooms"

 I forgot to sign the non-disclosure...

 

[orionflt]

10 minutes ago, Alan Fox said:

 I forgot to sign the non-disclosure...

 

No need to Alan, the only wingtips you had rubbing were in the trailer you were towing. 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Alan Fox said:

Pretty full of yourself there, Had the prop of the trailing aircraft , which was INCHES from the leading aircrafts wing , struck the aileron , A minimum of two people perish...  ZERO in a Cirrus.....

Loosing an aileron and wing tip is a scary proposition hot sure but it does not gaurantee a loss of control.

[Alan Fox]

19 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Loosing an aileron and wing tip is a scary proposition hot sure but it does not gaurantee a loss of control.

Losing an aileron WILL cause a loss of control.... We can agree to disagree..

[Cyril Gibb]

57 minutes ago, Alan Fox said:

Losing an aileron WILL cause a loss of control.... We can agree to disagree..

Just willing to learn, not starting a war...

If one aileron is broken off entirely or was flopping, wouldn’t the opposing aileron be almost as effective?

If it were a worst case scenario where the whole aileron mechanism were jammed in full deflection, wouldn’t the rudder be able to counteract the roll?  In my plane, based on my slipping practice, if the speed is >90 knots, the rudder has more authority than fully deflected ailerons.  Below 90 knots, the ailerons have more authority than the rudder, so keep it fastish.  It wouldn’t be a pretty landing trying to flare at 90 knots, but it would be survivable.

 

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Speculation often lends to one reading and hearing such speculation to be fact. We saw this happen in Mark B's recent accident about training, as innocent as the speculation might have been intended. Because of the high profile of the 2 groups involved, I understand the "gag" order to prevent the confirmation bias of "fake news". It is extremely easy to believe something to be true that isnt when it is framed in a supporting scenario, and with lawyers involved, this could easily call for an investigation to the investigation  The council of elders will no doubt have a public position when they are prepared, as will the NTSB and the FAA. It happened,  It will not go away with silence now, and all the parties know that answers to the questions this high profile incident must be given. Fortunately, this is an event that falls under "err" and doesn't take a long time to know the facts. Pilots as a whole are an intelligent community that putting a spin on the facts will be apparent and destructive to the parties so I dont look for that. (There I speculated)

Personally I think this is where it's starting to go wrong.   It's sounding to me like all of a sudden being able to discuss incidents is bad practice and gags are good practice.   I think the opposite is true.

One of the things I've always found refreshing about aviation is that information about incidents isn't suppressed, it's shared, because it helps to keep everybody safer.   This is true even before the results of official investigations are published.  Even the feds often publish preliminary reports.   It sounds to me like that paradigm is being shifted here.    I hope not, because I think it sets a bad precedent.

In some other areas (e.g., auto racing with some large organizations) it is normal practice to lock down information, forbid photographs, discourage discussion, etc., etc.   Even after investigations are over information isn't widely shared for privacy reasons or whatever.   One result is that the same mistakes get made over and over again, and another is that there is nothing to prevent errant speculations and misguided action going forward because the relevant information got suppressed.

So I think some of us are a little alarmed to see a potential culture shift happening in a direction where the effects are demonstrably counter-productive.

[ijs12fly]

Background:  In the 1990's I worked for the DOD as a civilian engineer in charge of radar systems that track Missile launches.  In the 90's Theater Missile Defense was a top priority of the military.  I have participated in 100's of missile firing efforts across the globe and I know how the military conducts exercises and the methods/procedures that are in place to insure safety and success.  

When I first attended a Caravan in 2015 as a passenger I was expecting to meet a group of folks who were all good pilots,  big ego's, and had some experience and figured out how to do formation flying.  I couldn't have been more wrong with my "outside" view of what formation flying was going to be.  My first experience started with a flight brief by a Lancer Test Pilot.  Not Lancair,  this pilot was a Boeing B-1B Lancer Test Pilot who contributed to much of our training philosophy (as well as a long history of prior military and professional pilots input).  The pre/post briefs were a carbon copy of what I had sat thru at Launch Control during my many years of missile testing at White Sands missile range, the only key difference is no one was wearing camouflage (while many I am sure have theirs hanging in the closet).  The Formation clinics and flights are as good as any military operation I have ever been a part of. 

2018 I flew in my first Caravan, and came back this year in 2019 and brought my son.   I will be back in 2020, 2021....  My son was my passenger this year, and for 5 days in a row since we returned he is asking when can go up and do some 4 ship work.  He loves it,  I love it.

The pilots give a lot of their free time up to help folks that are interested in learning.  There are no ego's,  those with experience are willing to help anyone and answer all questions.  But mostly its about building new friendships,  sharing knowledge, and fine tuning our skills as aviators.

My only suggestion is for some of the folks here that have interest, doubts, fear, suggestions, concerns, curiosity -  Come and attend a local ground clinic,  you may surprise yourself with what you can learn.  Maybe you do or don't take the next step and try it for yourself - it doesn't matter.  The minimum thing that will happen is you meet a room full of folks that all love flying Mooneys and have a combined knowledge of 100's of years of flying Mooneys.  I have learned more about recognizing and resolving mechanical issues, how to fly with no flaps, and how to get back to Stick and Rudder with my head up looking out the windscreen.  Since I started formation flying my landings have improved dramatically.  We use no flaps, i carry a little power, and this year when we landed at Osh on my Leads Wing, my son turned to me and said, are we down yet,  I smiled!     

Edited August 3, 2019 by ijs12fly

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Cyril Gibb said:

Just willing to learn, not starting a war...

If one aileron is broken off entirely or was flopping, wouldn’t the opposing aileron be almost as effective?

If it were a worst case scenario where the whole aileron mechanism were jammed in full deflection, wouldn’t the rudder be able to counteract the roll?  In my plane, based on my slipping practice, if the speed is >90 knots, the rudder has more authority than fully deflected ailerons.  Below 90 knots, the ailerons have more authority than the rudder, so keep it fastish.  It wouldn’t be a pretty landing trying to flare at 90 knots, but it would be survivable.

 

Many, many war time aircraft have lost multiple control surfaces in flight and landed safely. Indeed it’s a serious situation but the assertion that losing aileron is akin to assured destruction is  false. It’s a silly argument to make.

[gsengle]

Personally I think this is where it's starting to go wrong.   It's sounding to me like all of a sudden being able to discuss incidents is bad practice and gags are good practice.   I think the opposite is true.
One of the things I've always found refreshing about aviation is that information about incidents isn't suppressed, it's shared, because it helps to keep everybody safer.   This is true even before the results of official investigations are published.  Even the feds often publish preliminary reports.   It sounds to me like that paradigm is being shifted here.    I hope not, because I think it sets a bad precedent.
In some other areas (e.g., auto racing with some large organizations) it is normal practice to lock down information, forbid photographs, discourage discussion, etc., etc.   Even after investigations are over information isn't widely shared for privacy reasons or whatever.   One result is that the same mistakes get made over and over again, and another is that there is nothing to prevent errant speculations and misguided action going forward because the relevant information got suppressed.
So I think some of us are a little alarmed to see a potential culture shift happening in a direction where the effects are demonstrably counter-productive.

Speculation is fine by people involved in the activity. So we all get to speculate on general GA accidents and incidents. I am however bored and annoyed by those who don’t participate in a particular specific activity (I do not) speculating about a specific activity (formation flying) that I and they know little about - certainly not enough to have an informed discussion that doesn’t muddy the water in an unhelpful way.

It’s not like a formation accident is going to sneak up and get you. Risk mitigation is simple. Don’t participate!

So no this isn’t the general “don’t speculate it’s disrespectful” trend, which I often push back on myself.


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[M016576]

On 7/29/2019 at 3:33 PM, DonMuncy said:

I find it nothing short of a miracle that two planes can touch in flight, both land and both (apparently) fly home. As I understand it, there is some sort of maintenance available at Osh, but even at that, it would appear to be very minor damage. 

We do it all the time in my line of work... when fighters are executing aerial refueling.

Edited August 3, 2019 by M016576

[steingar]

I have a rather serious concern for the Caravan. I’ve not flown the Caravan, though I’ve had some formation training, enough to know how badly things went wrong. The Caravan got lucky, and escaped the incident with minor damage. It could have been far worse.

All I’ve heard from Caravaners is how professional they are and how wonderful everything is. I’ve worn a regulatory hat more than once. I KNOW the leaders of the Caravan will have to discuss this with some sort of officialdom before they do a formation flight into Oshkosh again. I am positive that if they go into that with this B.S. circling the wagons defensive attitude, there will be no Caravan ever again.

The trick to getting past this is humility, thought and analysis. Not who was at fault, but what about the process allowed this to happen, and what procedural changes are going to be made to prevent it happening again. I promise that the person or persons who evaluate this will have a far more jaundiced eye than me. If all they hear is how wonderful everything is, well, as I’ve stated previously, this is not supported by the evidence.

I don’t post this to insult, or be a gadfly, or throw mud at anyone. I am doing what I can do to make certain there is a Caravan for me to fly in in the future.

[Becca]

20 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

The thing I've noticed from the 130+ posts on this thread is that all the concern, and calls for changes in training, procedures, etc. are coming from pilots who do not fly formation, or did not fly with the Caravan, or have not attended Caravan Clinics. And also those who probably never will fly formation or attend Caravan training. 

Those of us that have, are not concerned.  Many members of the Caravan formed up on their own and flew formation all the way across the country, home after Oshkosh. 

If you're not a formation pilot or member of the Caravan, you have nothing to fear, and wouldn't understand the explanation anyway. Or as I said before, come participate in a Caravan Clinic and learn why those of us who have are not concerned.

This is all very much like the non-flying public who just don't understand why anyone ...e @ilovecornfields

This post concerns me...

 It’s ok to be confident that what you are doing can be done safely (and it can - I have no issue with either formation flying or the coolness of the caravan as an event... being concerned with safety for an event is NOT the same as being so risk adverse as saying you shouldn’t do it..  well except for the people that are afraid of Fisk, apparently..).  However though I am not concerned with the overall safety of caravans or formation flying, the more posts I read the more I am concerned about whether the Mooney Caravan is responding to this Incident adequately and improving rather than digging in their heels.   

I am sympathetic - the 130 posts here do feel like an attack on the caravan and it’s probably easy to try to get a little defensive.  But don’t let defensive stand in the way of acknowledging what happened... 

The Caravan just had a near miss of a fatal event.

If the rumors are to believed - there are several procedural, pilot qualification, and training issues that do need to be fixed.  You keep repeating concerns about insurance - which says to me it’s possible that something happened that might have either deviated from what’s covered by the caravans insurance or an individuals owners’ insurance coverages.  I have been avoiding posting these rumors here out of consideration for all the legalease, but this is not some freak-event, things went wrong and everyone is really lucky no one got hurt. 

I’ve worked on accidents before, and I’ve worked with “not concerned” managers, and things don’t turn out well in that sort of safety culture. Google “normalization of deviance”, for one.  “not concerned” is a sign of an indifferent safety culture.  Until root cause is found and corrective measures are taken you should be concerned.  I am not saying cancel the event, stop caravans, or abandon formation flying.  But even professional aviators in the military have a safety stand down after a near miss - they don’t just go on with “not concerned” and keep doing what they are doing.  Same thing in the spaceflight business.  A bunch of amateurs trying to prove the professionalism of the operation should not be ignoring what the professionals do.  Be concerned, a professional aviation operation would be. 

Edited August 3, 2019 by Becca

[Gary0747]

The more I read on this thread the more disturbed I become. Having spent my career around many chemical process safety accidents I am convinced the key to improving safety is primarily about establishing the right culture.  DuPont started the right culture by establishing that “all accidents are preventable”.  Anybody that showed up at an investigation saying “shit happens” just bought themselves a ticket to the unemployment line.   The other key to establishing corrective actions through a root cause analysis is that everyone had to be completely open with the facts with out worrying about the legal consequences. Having lawyers guide investigations often would not lead to the root causes and thus the corrective actions to prevent reoccurrence.    What troubles me here is it sounds like everyone has been sworn to secrecy.  Does this secrecy extend to the FAA inspectors?  Is the secrecy waved for the caravan investigation and do folks really think this info will not eventually make it to the legal process or to the FAA?  Is it thought that sharing that same info here with this group would really compromise or conflict with the other?  Something is really missing here. 

[gsengle]

The more I read on this thread the more disturbed I become. Having spent my career around many chemical process safety accidents I am convinced the key to improving safety is primarily about establishing the right culture.  DuPont started the right culture by establishing that “all accidents are preventable”.  Anybody that showed up at an investigation saying “shit happens” just bought themselves a ticket to the unemployment line.   The other key to establishing corrective actions through a root cause analysis is that everyone had to be completely open with the facts with out worrying about the legal consequences. Having lawyers guide investigations often would not lead to the root causes and thus the corrective actions to prevent reoccurrence.    What troubles me here is it sounds like everyone has been sworn to secrecy.  Does this secrecy extend to the FAA inspectors?  Is the secrecy waved for the caravan investigation and do folks really think this info will not eventually make it to the legal process or to the FAA?  Is it thought that sharing that same info here with this group would really compromise or conflict with the other?  Something is really missing here. 

I’m an airline pilot, and know safety culture. You’re really over reaching. The right safety processes including an FAA investigation with hopefully people being very open are ongoing. You are not a part of that process. I am not a part of that process. This group is not a part of that process. That DOES NOT MEAN there isn’t a process.

We don’t have a right to butt in when someone’s certificate may be at stake.


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[jetdriven]

I don’t think there will be a certificate action. As long as it wasn’t intentional, the parties are cooperative and demonstrate a willingness to improve, it will most likely be closed with retraining and a period of no violations.  

[gsengle]

I don’t think there will be a certificate action. As long as it wasn’t intentional, the parties are cooperative and demonstrate a willingness to improve, it will most likely be closed with retraining and a period of no violations.  

I agree. However it doesn’t make it any more our right to demand that the people involved somehow have an obligation to be “open” with anonymous people on an Internet forum because somehow this implies a lack of safety culture...


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[Gary0747]

29 minutes ago, gsengle said:

I’m an airline pilot, and know safety culture. You’re really over reaching. The right safety processes including an FAA investigation with hopefully people being very open are ongoing. You are not a part of that process. I am not a part of that process. This group is not a part of that process. That DOES NOT MEAN there isn’t a process.

We don’t have a right to butt in when someone’s certificate may be at stake.
 

You are a pilot and know how to fly an airplane. That is not the culture I am talking about. How many accident investigations have you run or participated in?  I am talking about the safety culture that address the proper way to approach and conduct accident investigations. 

[gsengle]

You are a pilot and know how to fly an airplane. That is not the culture I am talking about. How many accident investigations have you run or participated in. I am talking about the safety culture that address the proper way to approach and conduct accident investigations. 

 

And an engineer from a prior life with expertise in human factors. So? An Internet forum is not a part of the Mooney caravans or the FAAs process. I guarantee you that.

 

Nor can you reasonably infer anything about them from the discussion here.

 

 

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[gsengle]

You are a pilot and know how to fly an airplane. That is not the culture I am talking about. How many accident investigations have you run or participated in?  I am talking about the safety culture that address the proper way to approach and conduct accident investigations. 

I’d also add if you think that all an airline captain knows is “how to fly a plane”...


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[bradp]

By function of his job, Gary knows and is an expert in human factors and CRM. I’m not an airline pilot but I do know they spend and extraordinary amount of effort doing human factors - in fact that industry has pretty much taught many of the others how to do human factors.  

One thing that needs to be clear is that safety culture / human factors or whatever you want the moniker to be is NOT the same thing as an accident investigation.  You do not need “all the facts” to be able to implement effective procedural or operational changes that are driven by speculation or hypothesis when those speculative or hypothetical factors are existing and or potentially valid within your organization. I think we as pilots are sometimes myopic to the NTSB process being the be all and end all of safety in flying.  Human factors / CRM (what your FAAST reps try to teach GA pilots) whatever you want to cal it are informed by the accident investigations certainly.  It needs them and is shaped by then.  But its scope is wider and can operate in parallel with the investigation process. 

[gsengle]

By function of his job, Gary knows and is an expert in human factors and CRM. I’m not an airline pilot but I do know they spend and extraordinary amount of effort doing human factors - in fact that industry has pretty much taught many of the others how to do human factors.  
One thing that needs to be clear is that safety culture / human factors or whatever you want the moniker to be is NOT the same thing as an accident investigation.  You do not need “all the facts” to be able to implement effective procedural or operational changes that are driven by speculation or hypothesis when those speculative or hypothetical factors are existing and or potentially valid within your organization. I think we as pilots are sometimes myopic to the NTSB process being the be all and end all of safety in flying.  Human factors / CRM (what your FAAST reps try to teach GA pilots) whatever you want to cal it are informed by the accident investigations certainly.  It needs them and is shaped by then.  But its scope is wider and can operate in parallel with the investigation process. 

Absolutely. They are separate yet interrelated. But no one owes explanations of either here... and trying to bully information with cries of secrecy and no safety culture isn’t a good look for Mooneyspace.

Again I have nothing to do with the caravan, and have never flown formation. But I know we are living in a quick, grab for the pitchforks culture which I find disturbing, no matter who is doing it.


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[bradp]

10 minutes ago, gsengle said:

 

Absolutely. They are separate yet interrelated. But no one owes explanations of either here... and trying to bully information with cries of secrecy and no safety culture isn’t a good look for Mooneyspace.

Again I have nothing to do with the caravan, and have never flown formation. But I know we are living in a quick, grab for the pitchforks culture which I find disturbing, no matter who is doing it.


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Yes Gary totally agree.  

As I said before I’ll give the benefit of the doubt to the group. One of the accident pilots stood up and asked everyone to just wait and be patient during what I only imagine can be a very stressful time.  That wasn’t the caravan circling the wagons that was the pilot who almost bought the farm just asking folks to be patient until he could get a handle on the process. That’s fair.  

As soon as the ASRS narratives come out (I imagine they are held back for 60 days just so these investigations occur) - we will re-ignite this conversation.  

Although I personally may know just a tiny bit more based on unverified conversations,  having laid eyes on the accident airplanes, and casually knowing one of the two involved pilots, it’s honestly not that much more than any of the Caravaners (or Mooneyspacers) who weren’t in the tail element.  I’m totally okay being a little patient because I the circumstances that allowed this accident to occur will not be potentially repeatable until the clinics start rolling around next season.  If clinics are starting and we don’t have appropriate transparent process improvements in response then that will be a very different circumstance.  I do not want to learn how to do “battle damage checks” in a Mooney ;-)

-B 

[Andy95W]

51 minutes ago, gsengle said:

 

I agree. However it doesn’t make it any more our right to demand that the people involved somehow have an obligation to be “open” with anonymous people on an Internet forum because somehow this implies a lack of safety culture...


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I agree.  

I am still hopeful that once everything is done and the dust settled, we will be given a fair and honest account of what happened and why.  I hope this account is sterilized to protect the participants, because that frankly doesn't matter.  All that matters at this point forward is that we all have the opportunity to learn and get better, and that those of us who will one day participate in formation flying clinics will be able to benefit from the lessons learned.

[Skates97]

20 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

So, one last time. We will not discuss the details of this incident here on MooneySpace period.

I would have expected you to say there would be no discussion until after everything is sorted out, not that it would never be discussed here. If the Caravan truly means to never discuss this incident outside of their organization, any changes to training or procedures that are needed (if that is the conclusion reached) here, that is disappointing. 

5 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I agree.  

I am still hopeful that once everything is done and the dust settled, we will be given a fair and honest account of what happened and why.  I hope this account is sterilized to protect the participants, because that frankly doesn't matter.  All that matters at this point forward is that we all have the opportunity to learn and get better, and that those of us who will one day participate in formation flying clinics will be able to benefit from the lessons learned

I agree completely. I don't care who was involved, but it would be nice to eventually know what the chain of events were that led to the incident and what is being done to prevent it in the future. I have not done any formation flying but would like to and have been considering the Caravan next year. I already have Oshkosh on the calendar. If the gag order extends past the point where everything has been resolved that would not encourage my participation in the Caravan.