That dangerous pilot on your field

[bob865]

I feel like every one of us has had this experience at some point.  There's this guy on your field that you know is not safe.  Maybe you now him personally, maybe you've just heard about his antics.  In my case, I’m in the process of getting my experience.  Sit back while I regale you with my tale. Sorry in advance for the wall of text.

I met this acquaintance when he bought a share of the plane I was partners in.  After buying in, it became obvious his flying skills were below par, but that was somewhat know when he bought in.  It was a Cherokee after all and he was getting back into flying and had to do some flying with an instructor to get current again so he could fly solo.  Many of us have been there.  Well on one of his first training flights, he makes a bad call on a touch and go (forgive me for mentioning a touch and go for now).  He lands long and still decides to ‘go’ anyway but because he landed long scared himself because he was so close to the trees on the departure end.  Well his conclusion was not, “I should not have forced that landing,” but rather “there has to be something wrong with the plane.  It’s not climbing fast enough to clear the trees”  Lots more story in here, but we’ll skip to the relevant parts for this discussion. After being incognito for a while he pops back up with a pic of his foreflight where he has a ground speed of 181kts in a Cherokee 140 with a Vne of 170mph!  We see him taking off another day and decide to listen to the radio to hear this radio exchange:

Tower: Cherokee 123 contact approach on 123.45

Tower: Cherokee 123, did you hear me?

Cherokee: Oh!.....Yeah…this is Cherokee 123, go ahead.

Tower: Cherokee 123 contact approach

Cherokee: Contact approach Cherokee 123

Cherokee: What the frequency for approach? 123.45, right?

Tower:  Yes, approach on 123.45

Approach: (talking to a heavy)

Cherokee: Yeah, I was waiting on you to finish talking to that other guy, this is Cherokee 123

This day had some low clouds and the plane is not equipped for IFR.  When asked he said, “yeah the clouds were a little low.  I had to fly though one at one point, but I was being vectored so it’s all good.”

Now he is buying a v-tail bonanza.  When he brings it up, we ask how he’s planning to do it since he doesn’t have a high performance or complex endorsement.  He appears surprised but concedes he guesses he will stay the weekend and get his time and endorsement before he flies back.

I should add I sold my share of the Cherokee shortly after he bought his so I could buy my Mooney, so this is a mix of hearsay and fist hand accounts.

What would you do?  I feel like there should be someway of addressing issues like this because they are not only endangering their own lives, but also the lives of those on the ground and those in the air with them.

[DualRatedFlyer]

5 minutes ago, bob865 said:

After being incognito for a while he pops back up with a pic of his foreflight where he has a ground speed of 181kts in a Cherokee 140 with a Vne of 170mph! 

 

Aside from the other valid points you brought up, there is nothing wrong with this.  Vne is not based groundspeed. 

[bob865]

36 minutes ago, DualRatedFlyer said:

 

Aside from the other valid points you brought up, there is nothing wrong with this.  Vne is not based groundspeed. 

I am aware, however....to keep the numbers on a level playing field and maybe make the point more clear, he had a groundspeed of 210mph(183kts) with a Vne of 170mph.  If you can help me come up with a safe way to get a plane with a normal curise speed of 110mph to a groundspeed of 210mph, I'll conceed the point.  With a 170mph airspeed he would still need a 40mph tail wind to reach this.  To reach 170mph airspeed I can't see how you could reach it in a fixed pitch airplane without overspeeding the engine/prop.  Basically, I cannot come up with a way to do this in a normal, safe, operating envelope. 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, bob865 said:

I feel like every one of us has had this experience at some point.  There's this guy on your field that you know is not safe.  Maybe you now him personally, maybe you've just heard about his antics.  In my case, I’m in the process of getting my experience.  Sit back while I regale you with my tale. Sorry in advance for the wall of text.

I met this acquaintance when he bought a share of the plane I was partners in.  After buying in, it became obvious his flying skills were below par, but that was somewhat know when he bought in.  It was a Cherokee after all and he was getting back into flying and had to do some flying with an instructor to get current again so he could fly solo.  Many of us have been there.  Well on one of his first training flights, he makes a bad call on a touch and go (forgive me for mentioning a touch and go for now).  He lands long and still decides to ‘go’ anyway but because he landed long scared himself because he was so close to the trees on the departure end.  Well his conclusion was not, “I should not have forced that landing,” but rather “there has to be something wrong with the plane.  It’s not climbing fast enough to clear the trees”  Lots more story in here, but we’ll skip to the relevant parts for this discussion. After being incognito for a while he pops back up with a pic of his foreflight where he has a ground speed of 181kts in a Cherokee 140 with a Vne of 170mph!  We see him taking off another day and decide to listen to the radio to hear this radio exchange:

Tower: Cherokee 123 contact approach on 123.45

Tower: Cherokee 123, did you hear me?

Cherokee: Oh!.....Yeah…this is Cherokee 123, go ahead.

Tower: Cherokee 123 contact approach

Cherokee: Contact approach Cherokee 123

Cherokee: What the frequency for approach? 123.45, right?

Tower:  Yes, approach on 123.45

Approach: (talking to a heavy)

Cherokee: Yeah, I was waiting on you to finish talking to that other guy, this is Cherokee 123

This day had some low clouds and the plane is not equipped for IFR.  When asked he said, “yeah the clouds were a little low.  I had to fly though one at one point, but I was being vectored so it’s all good.”

Now he is buying a v-tail bonanza.  When he brings it up, we ask how he’s planning to do it since he doesn’t have a high performance or complex endorsement.  He appears surprised but concedes he guesses he will stay the weekend and get his time and endorsement before he flies back.

I should add I sold my share of the Cherokee shortly after he bought his so I could buy my Mooney, so this is a mix of hearsay and fist hand accounts.

What would you do?  I feel like there should be someway of addressing issues like this because they are not only endangering their own lives, but also the lives of those on the ground and those in the air with them.

Honestly, I would say that there is nothing in your post that much surpasses what I would call airport gossip. Also, the pearl clutching over the ground speed kind of tells me that you're prone to getting excited about non-events... It takes time to get comfortable on the radio. Some take longer than others. Some never really get there. I hear the pros making poor calls and using lousy phraseology sometimes. 

BTW, my F model has a Vne of 173KIAS...please don’t “turn me in”...

 

 

[Davidv]

I know I'm deviating from the topic slightly, but I'll share an interesting story that happened to me in KEYW a few weeks back.  I was approaching the airport from the northeast and talking to Naval approach.  At the same time, there was a Delta 737 and a Citation approaching from the North.  The Delta was sequenced right before me and then the Citation.  I don't recall the Citation's call sign so I've made one up below.

Navy App: Mooney 46BL fly direct to the VOR, you're following a 737 on a 3 mile final

Navy App: Citation 45V expect the RNAV RWY 9 approach

Navy App: Mooney 46BL contact tower

Now on tower

Tower: Mooney 46BL runway 9, cleared the land.  There's a citation following you so please keep your speed up as much as practical.

Tower: Citation 45V turn left heading 360 

Citation: I thought I was cleared for the RNAV 9 Approach? (the pilot seemed a little timid with her communications - at least a lot different than what I'm used to hearing from the crew of  part 135 charter or regional airline).  He was trying to vector her north to provide spacing behind me and had not yet cleared her to land (and it was a perfect VFR day).

Tower: Citation 45V turn left heading 360 (firm voice)

I land and the citation lands behind me.  Because of the short distance between us, we are both on parallel taxiways next to each other waiting for ground to clear us to ramp.  However, the citation doesn't hold short of the taxiway but rather joins Alpha to starts taxiing to the ramp.  A very annoyed controller says "Citation 45V, what are you doing?!? You can't just start taxing without me clearing you".  She slams on the brakes and apologizes.  I'm then cleared to follow the citation to the ramp and park next to it.  The Citation parks with full spoilers and flaps deployed and finally cleans up the plane just before shutting down.  A single pilot emerges from the plane and after doing a little research on flight aware it appeared to be a part 91 owner operated plane.

Now I'm not saying this person is a bad pilot because I only witnessed one event, but I was absolutely shocked that someone who is flying this type of aircraft could be making these type of mistakes.  

 

[DXB]

Your hunch about the guy might be right, but there's really nothing solid here  to go on or do much about, as far as I can tell.  Maybe you could guide him to a particularly capable and somewhat demanding Bonanza-specific instructor for his transition.  He will need that anyway for insurance in addition to complex and high performance.  It might be just what he needs (and anyone really needs for that type of transition).

[bob865]

So I think the thread is drifting from my original intentions but in this case, it's a good thing. 

@Shadrach My point about the speed is something that makes me go Hmmm...  Not necessarily a bad thing in an of itself, but not something I can explain.  Like I said before, I can't come up with a safe way to get 100mph above Vne in a Cherokee safely.  Maybe I'm wrong and if someone can help me understand why I am, I welcome it.  Those kinds of speeds in Mooney are lot more believable.  The adjustable pitch prop allows it go faster without necessarily speeding up the engine, the plane flies closer to the Vne mark in cruise and in normal operation is not unusual to see in the yellow arc, etc.  Comparing your Mooney and a Cherokee are not exactly apple to apples. 

Again, I'm asking to learn, can someone give me a plausible, safe way to get to 210mph in a Cherokee 140?

So to try to clarify where I actually meant for this to go.  A  more philosophical question direction. 

What do you do about the guy on the field who may or may not be dangerous?  Someone you have seen do something dangerous or the gossip says is dangerous.  Do you approach them?  Do you try to help a fellow aviator improve themselves?  How exactly do you do or word that?  Has anyone done it?  How did they react?  Is there any recourse outside of a pilot to pilot chat?  At what point would you feel the need to go that far?

 

[afward]

12 minutes ago, bob865 said:

a plausible, safe way to get to 210mph in a Cherokee 140

Put it in a cargo plane.

I'll see myself out...

[Air pirate]

I'm not qualified to judge any ones flying skills or intentions, from reading your post I would question the pilots judgment, "just because you could , doesn't mean you should". The V Tail is a cool airplane, solid and slippery, not to mention it can have tendency to want to get very snarly in an un coordinated stall ( know this from experience and had to toss a relatively un soiled pair of Fruit of the Looms upon landing). The nickname "Fork Tail Dr. Killer" was because pilots trained in relatively docile aircraft would get behind the airplane, when the airplane would hit the yellow or red arc pretty fast they would pull back and tear the tail off.

Natural selection usually takes care of things evident by the phrase "hold my beer", I hope the pilot in question spends time with a very good Bonanza instructor and becomes disciplined enough to fly it by the numbers.

I had a guy that owned a V-35 ask me to fly to OSH with him because he was nervous (only a throw over yoke) and in the same conversation he said "I wonder if you would feel anything if you slammed into one of these mountains in solid IFR?'  I never got in an aircraft with him . 

[gsxrpilot]

I'm sure there are folks around here that consider me to the one of those "dangerous pilots on the field" just because I sometimes land without flaps, and I'm never watching my speed on final. But that's fine, you don't have to ride with me. I'm certainly not qualified to criticize anyone else about their flying. And so I wouldn't ever tell anyone they were being dangerous. Having said that, there are pilots I'd probably not fly with. 

Pilots who take themselves and flying too seriously are a pet peeve of mine. This is a dangerous activity, almost as dangerous as the ride to the airport on the bike. Life is dangerous. But it's not rocket science, it's just flying an airplane. Anyone can do it. And will all due respect to the good doctor we lost this week, there are plenty of worse ways to go than in an airplane.

[Niko182]

2 hours ago, bob865 said:

I am aware, however....to keep the numbers on a level playing field and maybe make the point more clear, he had a groundspeed of 210mph(183kts) with a Vne of 170mph.  If you can help me come up with a safe way to get a plane with a normal curise speed of 110mph to a groundspeed of 210mph, I'll conceed the point.  With a 170mph airspeed he would still need a 40mph tail wind to reach this.  To reach 170mph airspeed I can't see how you could reach it in a fixed pitch airplane without overspeeding the engine/prop.  Basically, I cannot come up with a way to do this in a normal, safe, operating envelope. 

remember that VNE is IAS, while he was flying 210MPH GS, and GS is TAS with wind. If my VNE is 195KIAS, and i'm descending out of 12,000ft, 195KIAS, is going to be something like 235KTAS without any tailwinds if not more.

[Hank]

11 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm sure there are folks around here that consider me to the one of those "dangerous pilots on the field" just because I sometimes land without flaps, and I'm never watching my speed on final. But that's fine, you don't have to ride with me. I'm certainly not qualified to criticize anyone else about their flying. And so I wouldn't ever tell anyone they were being dangerous. Having said that, there are pilots I'd probably not fly with. 

Pilots who take themselves and flying too seriously are a pet peeve of mine. This is a dangerous activity, almost as dangerous as the ride to the airport on the bike. Life is dangerous. But it's not rocket science, it's just flying an airplane. Anyone can do it. And will all due respect to the good doctor we lost this week, there are plenty of worse ways to go than in an airplane.

I always glance at my ASI on final at least twice--as I roll wings level at 85 mph, and for my targeted short final speed of 70 or 75 mph depending on weight. Flaps always vary as needed to land where I want to, as does trim.

For your final point, while we all would prefer an easy, pleasant finale, one of my goals is to not go early, before my time, regardless of method or speed . . . . So my driving has calmed down a lot (can't tell you the last time I hit triple digits on the ground), and I try to make the scenery out the windows be the only "exciting" part of my flying. Sometimes boring is good!

[Niko182]

2 hours ago, Davidv said:

I know I'm deviating from the topic slightly, but I'll share an interesting story that happened to me in KEYW a few weeks back.  I was approaching the airport from the northeast and talking to Naval approach.  At the same time, there was a Delta 737 and a Citation approaching from the North.  The Delta was sequenced right before me and then the Citation.  I don't recall the Citation's call sign so I've made one up below.

Navy App: Mooney 46BL fly direct to the VOR, you're following a 737 on a 3 mile final

Navy App: Citation 45V expect the RNAV RWY 9 approach

Navy App: Mooney 46BL contact tower

Now on tower

Tower: Mooney 46BL runway 9, cleared the land.  There's a citation following you so please keep your speed up as much as practical.

Tower: Citation 45V turn left heading 360 

Citation: I thought I was cleared for the RNAV 9 Approach? (the pilot seemed a little timid with her communications - at least a lot different than what I'm used to hearing from the crew of  part 135 charter or regional airline).  He was trying to vector her north to provide spacing behind me and had not yet cleared her to land (and it was a perfect VFR day).

Tower: Citation 45V turn left heading 360 (firm voice)

I land and the citation lands behind me.  Because of the short distance between us, we are both on parallel taxiways next to each other waiting for ground to clear us to ramp.  However, the citation doesn't hold short of the taxiway but rather joins Alpha to starts taxiing to the ramp.  A very annoyed controller says "Citation 45V, what are you doing?!? You can't just start taxing without me clearing you".  She slams on the brakes and apologizes.  I'm then cleared to follow the citation to the ramp and park next to it.  The Citation parks with full spoilers and flaps deployed and finally cleans up the plane just before shutting down.  A single pilot emerges from the plane and after doing a little research on flight aware it appeared to be a part 91 owner operated plane.

Now I'm not saying this person is a bad pilot because I only witnessed one event, but I was absolutely shocked that someone who is flying this type of aircraft could be making these type of mistakes.  

 

We all have those days of shitty flying days. Some people land with their gear up, some people start with the towbar on the wing or attached to the front wheel, some people take off with the backdoor open, Some people forget to put the gear up (That one for sure never happened to me. I'm way to good of a pilot to do that). If you can learn from your mistakes, that's one thing that makes you a good pilot. The fact is you are gonna make mistakes. If you repeat dangerous mistakes over and over and over again, flying isn't for you and its only a matter of time before you destroy you plane, your self or someone else.

Additional Note: I have a couple of people I think are rather sketchy at john wayne. you'd be surprised how many people taxi at 30MPH, skip the runnup, start without any warning, or buzz the maintenance hangars at 45ft.

[Davidv]

2 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

We all have those days of shitty flying days. Some people land with their gear up, some people start with the towbar on the wing or attached to the front wheel, some people take off with the backdoor open, Some people forget to put the gear up (That one for sure never happened to me. I'm way to good of a pilot to do that). If you can learn from your mistakes, that's one thing that makes you a good pilot. The fact is you are gonna make mistakes. If you repeat dangerous mistakes over and over and over again, flying isn't for you and its only a matter of time before you destroy you plane, your self or someone else.

Additional Note: I have a couple of people I think are rather sketchy at john wayne. you'd be surprised how many people taxi at 30MPH, skip the runnup, start without any warning, or buzz the maintenance hangars at 45ft.

Agreed Niko, and we all know you are too good of a pilot to do any of those things  - so am I.  I remember taxing past the FBO one day when someone ran over and told me my pitot cover was still on (airspeed not alive).  I had my passenger untie the left side and that was a good learning experience for me! 

[EricJ]

I think most of us have had experiences hearing somebody's radio communications and wondering how they managed to get a license, assuming they have one.   And sometimes it is the people in the jets or the bigger than usual GA hardware.

The only time I've ever filed an ASRS about another pilot was after he buzzed me on the taxiway as I was turning off the runway, while he was complaining on the radio, "that guy is still on the runway".    This was at a Class D with an operating tower.

As long as the other airplanes are flown by people there's going to be a wide variance in talent and experience level and competence.  The more we look out for each other the safer we'll all be.

[flight2000]

1 hour ago, bob865 said:

Like I said before, I can't come up with a safe way to get 100mph above Vne in a Cherokee safely.  Maybe I'm wrong and if someone can help me understand why I am, I welcome it.  Those kinds of speeds in Mooney are lot more believable.  The adjustable pitch prop allows it go faster without necessarily speeding up the engine, the plane flies closer to the Vne mark in cruise and in normal operation is not unusual to see in the yellow arc, etc.  Comparing your Mooney and a Cherokee are not exactly apple to apples. 

Have you seen some of the winds aloft over the last couple months?  I've seen 80-90 kts as low as 7000' in the Virginia area.  Catch one of those as a tail wind and you can easily hit 200 kts GS in a Cherokee, all the while showing about 115 KIAS.  Has nothing to do with the prop, engine, or airframe - it's all about moving with the air mass.  A Mooney or my Travel Air will be moving even faster than that since we are capable of higher indicated airspeeds which is how Shadrach got to 246 knots GS (which is totally amazing by the way....).  Going the other direction, well, he may run out of gas before getting home and the cars on the highway below will be passing him....

Brian

[flight2000]

28 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

Additional Note: I have a couple of people I think are rather sketchy at john wayne. you'd be surprised how many people taxi at 30MPH, skip the runnup, start without any warning, or buzz the maintenance hangars at 45ft.

Shoot, you've also got some really sketchy pilots there that like to land on taxiways instead of the runway... 

Cheers,

Brian

[aviatoreb]

46 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

...This is a dangerous activity, almost as dangerous as the ride to the airport on the bike.

I know - I was horrified when I researched the statistics a few years ago to learn how very dangerous it to ride my bike, which I do quite a lot of - because I enjoy it and it is a lovely thing to do on a lovely sunny day.  Sometimes I even ride my bike to the hangar and fly my airplane and then I ride home. Which is such a nice exercise in contrasts from noisy and fast, to quiet and slow.

But neither is as dangerous as riding the canoe, which I also do often as I live on the river.

Well at least Im safe right now, sitting on the couch.  I think.

[Hank]

13 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I know - I was horrified when I researched the statistics a few years ago to learn how very dangerous it to ride my bike, which I do quite a lot of - because I enjoy it and it is a lovely thing to do on a lovely sunny day.  Sometimes I even ride my bike to the hangar and fly my airplane and then I ride home. Which is such a nice exercise in contrasts from noisy and fast, to quiet and slow.

But neither is as dangerous as riding the canoe, which I also do often as I live on the river.

Well at least Im safe right now, sitting on the couch.  I think.

At least your super-dangerous canoe season is very short, limited by ice. This is off my back deck, and the large pond drains out of sight into a 44,000 acre lake that never freezes . . . .

Edited May 10, 2019 by Hank

[cliffy]

Let's go fishing :-)

[Runway37]

Ok, good time to confess.

I can't remember the flight at all but for some reason my passenger got out before I shut it down. I think we had parked the car in the tiedown area or something and he got out to move it. I didn't brief him about the prop - I mean it's obvious right? He started toward the plane and I immediately shut it down which made him stop. In the car on the way home I asked him if he had considered the deadly Hartzell. He laughed and admitted it never occurred  to him. My bad for sure. Never took passengers' unfamiliarity with ga for granted again. I can't stand pilots that dont give a good "clear" or just give a token "clear".

But that day I was the dangerous pilot.

 

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

At least your super-dangerous canoe season is very short, limited by ice. This is off my back deck, and the large pond drains out of sight into a 44,000 acre lake that never freezes . . . .

That is a fantastic view to start the day! Perfect place for a first cup of coffee!

[Hank]

11 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

That is a fantastic view to start the day! Perfect place for a first cup of coffee!

That's my breakfast view when the sun is up.

It's nice in the evening, too.

Good for canoeing and kayaking year round!

Edited May 11, 2019 by Hank

[skydvrboy]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Well at least Im safe right now, sitting on the couch.  I think.

Are you crazy?  Do you know how many people die from heart disease due to lack of exercise?  Now get off that couch!

[Skates97]

14 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

That is a fantastic view to start the day! Perfect place for a first cup of coffee!

Or end the day, or anywhere in between.