Buyer's Brokers cost

[ChrisV]

First time buyer considering using a buyer's broker.  I met an independent broker many months ago who is an A&P, aircraft appraiser and flies a gorgeous 201.  His fee is $3500 + travel expenses and + transition training (which I will need).  His fee covers finding a suitable aircraft, conducting the pre-purchase evaluation, and transporting the plane back to me.

What are your thoughts on using a buyer's broker?

What are the typical costs?  His fee seems high to me since I am finding my own aircraft and will transport it home.

[cbarry]

If you feel comfortable to find your own aircraft and transporting  it home, then maybe ask the broker if he’s willing to perform the other tasks such as the prepurchase....Maybe he’ll negotiate.  There’s an old saying: “if you think it’s expensive to hire a professional, then hire an amateur.”  Not knowing the broker you’re mentioning, I’m sure his fee includes pricing the value of his experience which should hopefully help your purchase go a little smoother.

Good luck on your upcoming purchase!  You’re already a step ahead of the rest by searching for a Mooney!

[FloridaMan]

It depends on how much the search and learning about the fleet interests you. If life's got you busy and you can't afford to spend a lot of time searching for planes, evaluating them, aren't sure what to look for, and this guy will negotiate the fair market price for you, it's probably worth it. The market is a lot tighter now than it has been in years and good planes that are priced right move quickly, which was one thing that burned me numerous times during my search -- uncertainty on planes that were good and priced correctly; someone who knew what they were looking at would move in quickly and buy while I was making up my mind. 

[ChrisV]

Thanks gents.  I have and have had plenty of time to research and search (sorry about that stupid sentence).  Now I am waiting for something that matches closest enough to what I want.  I check the usual websites at least twice a day.  

I can see a broker being worthwhile if he negotiates a better price than I could, based on his wisdom.  Still not ready to write him a check tho.

[ArtVandelay]

If a plane is far away a broker can save you travel time and money by test flying, preliminary inspection, etc.
That’s assuming the broker is located near the plane.

[David_H]

This is actually a very interesting question in my mind. There is a lot of work involved on the front end. I do wonder how many Brokers would actually be worth the cost.

If they did their job, probably invaluable. However, if you are hiring a Broker, chances are high that you wouldn't know what a good job looks like.

I say that because I don't know that I could really be able to tell what a good job looks like either since value is subjective.

Edited October 19, 2018 by David_H

[Bravoman]

If he is good at what he does that sounds reasonable for all the services which are included 

[RobertGary1]

Buying a plane is a massive pain in the rear and extremely time consuming. Sounds like a great idea to me 

-Robert 

[Guest]

Why not call All American and tell them you budget and wants to see what he has on hand or has coming?

Clarence

[DonMuncy]

Although All American typically represents their seller, they are honest and straightforward. If they say it, you can rely on it.

[jaylw314]

6 hours ago, ChrisV said:

First time buyer considering using a buyer's broker.  I met an independent broker many months ago who is an A&P, aircraft appraiser and flies a gorgeous 201.  His fee is $3500 + travel expenses and + transition training (which I will need).  His fee covers finding a suitable aircraft, conducting the pre-purchase evaluation, and transporting the plane back to me.

What are your thoughts on using a buyer's broker?

What are the typical costs?  His fee seems high to me since I am finding my own aircraft and will transport it home.

I'd be a little leery of having the broker conduct the prepurchase exam.  That's nice, but I'd still insist on having a 3rd party perform one.  You don't want the mechanic doing it to have any kind of stake in the sale.  Typical exams for Mooney's cost $900-1200

On the other hand, if he's charging $3500, that's pretty good if you're looking for a mid-body or newer.  Most brokers I've heard of charge a fee that's a percentage of the sales fee, I think I remember something similar to real estate agents (3% but don't quote me).  If you're looking around the country, he'd be obviously more useful than if you were only looking locally. 

You mentioned you plan on finding your own plane and transporting it home, and if that's the case, I'm not sure what the broker would actually help with other than some of the headaches about conducting the actual purchase.  I looked up ferry costs a few years ago buying my plane, and I recall seeing numbers like $2500 ($1200 plus fuel and mileage) from TX to OR

 

[WaynePierce]

19 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

Although All American typically represents their seller, they are honest and straightforward. If they say it, you can rely on it.

I did this last month and also found out that many of their aircraft have come through their doors previously. I think it was the fourth time they sold the plane they sold me. That says a lot about their purchasing and selling character. Most of the planes they are selling are coming from buyers moving up.

One other thing they do for you that helped me tremendously as a buyer; you can get on a mailing list and they let you know ahead of time what they will have coming in soon. I got one of these and it all started with, "I'm interested in this one..."

Edited October 19, 2018 by WaynePierce
forgot something

[carusoam]

Wait a sec...

Brokers can be very useful...

When they really know the Mooney...

Transition training is very important for most people...

TT is very valuable when coming from a Mooney CFII...

Gambling all that 3.5 amus can go south if the person you selected isn’t very Mooney knowledgeable...

Select known Mooney services, from known Mooney providers, for best results...

Not perfect results, just better than a guy you know, or like, or heard was good from a brand C or P pilot...

AAA has nice Mooneys for sale,  they can arrange an independent PPI, and organize TT with known MAPA CFIIs, before helping you fly the new acquisition home in IMC...

Its not the price, it’s what you are (possibly) not getting for that price...

Who is your guy? Is he an MSer? MAPA member?

How much risk do you want to take on for this convenience...?

I have...

- Used AAA

- Used AOPA/Bank of A  financing

- Used Falcon for insurance

- Contracted with DMax for an independent PPI.

- Used MAPA resources for training and delivery...

- Read a lot of MS for Mooney specific thought processes... (This list probably sounds really familiar to most MSers...)

I have no relationship with any of them yet...

Make it happen! 

Always Compare your options... see what fits your needs... Call David at AAA...

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I'd be a little leery of having the broker conduct the prepurchase exam.  That's nice, but I'd still insist on having a 3rd party perform one.  You

 

This is a buyer’s broker. He has no relation to the seller. 

-Robert 

[ChrisV]

The buyer broker that I'm considering is definitely a Mooney guy.  If the paper credentials he showed me weren't enough to convince me of this, his plane was.  He  knew it inside and out and is getting ready to sell it to move up to a bigger mooney.  I'd buy his in a heartbeat, but it is 50% over my budget.

[carusoam]

Buying newer planes from known Mooniacs is one way to reduce your risk...

Keeping your PPI independent of the seller and prior mechanics, is best for the comfort of your wallet...

Getting Mooney Specific TT from a CFII is just the best of the best... to get started on the right foot...

Is your guy in NJ?  I would probably need to stop typing... as it would appear to be a bit biased...

Best regards,

-a-

[smccray]

13 minutes ago, ChrisV said:

The buyer broker that I'm considering is definitely a Mooney guy.  If the paper credentials he showed me weren't enough to convince me of this, his plane was.  He  knew it inside and out and is getting ready to sell it to move up to a bigger mooney.  I'd buy his in a heartbeat, but it is 50% over my budget.

What are you looking for?  What's your budget?

Using a buyers broker, you're buying someone to help you evaluate the the airplane.  What are you looking for from this guy?  If you think he can help you find a deal, you're probably wrong.  If you think he's going to let you avoid a prepurchase inspection by a mechanic, that's unlikely as well.  About the only thing he can do for you is save you time 1) reviewing log books, and 2) traveling to see the airplane on your behalf before you make a trip to see the plane.  Broker will do about the equivalent of a detailed pre-flight inspection- that's about it.  In other words, the broker will save you time, and the broker will hopefully save you some money avoiding a PPI on a bad airplane.  I used a buyers broker on my latest purchase.

Whether or not it's worth it depends on what you're looking for.  If you want to find a $60K J model, get a broker because you're going to be sorting through a lot of junk.  I doubt a buyers rep worth the fee would help you buy a J at $60K.  If you're looking for a $100K J, you can probably evaluate that yourself.  If you're looking for a $130K+ J, you shouldn't need any help.

[ChrisV]

I'm looking to stay under $100K for a 201.  The broker is not going to avoid the pre-purchase, he is going to do it. I think his value is that he is an A&P, an airplane appraiser, and a mooney guy.  When I first started looking about a year ago I considered not getting a pre buy inspection.    The pilots I work with convinced me otherwise.  And that has been backed up on MS.

[smccray]

What model year are you targeting and how do you want the plane equipped?  How important is Paint, Interior, and the Panel to you?

[ChrisV]

I'd like to be in the 80's, later than 84 if possible.  A M20J, but would consider a K, but it would have to be a sweet deal.  Not concerned with interior or exterior (looks that is). 

Here were my needs:  Low to mid time engine and prop, no corrosion, autopilot with alt hold, large WAAS GPS (anything bigger than a 430), modern engine monitor, hangared and flown regularly, 

Here are my wants:  Garmin 750, ADS-B in and out, LR tanks, resealed tanks, engine with roller tappets, any speed mods, 

Mission set:  90% pacific northwest weekend getaways with the wife and toddler, 10% XCs back to Wyoming to see family (4 times a year).

[WaynePierce]

Chris as someone who was looking at J's in particular, I don't think you'll find what you are looking for for less than 125k. Mine was slightly less than that with GNS 430W and no ADS-B they had a plane that would fit your bill but it was 129k with high time engine. Great avionics though.

 

Good luck, it's a great platform.

[smccray]

Taking about 5 min on controller I'd take a look at this: https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/27973073/1978-mooney-m20j

Good P&I and interior.  Engine will need to be redone soon but that's okay.  Add a GTN750, 2 G5s and a GFC500 autopilot. Not much in Js out there right now.

Search on the forum- I think I read bad things about deal terms with the seller.  I may have them confused so I won't say anything else here.

This K looks interesting: https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/27219961/1979-mooney-m20k-231

Good engine times and AAA-https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/19508001/1979-mooney-m20k-231 May be able to get some attractive pricing on avionics upgrades which I agree that it needs.

 

[INA201]

1 hour ago, ChrisV said:

I'm looking to stay under $100K for a 201.  The broker is not going to avoid the pre-purchase, he is going to do it. I think his value is that he is an A&P, an airplane appraiser, and a mooney guy.  When I first started looking about a year ago I considered not getting a pre buy inspection.    The pilots I work with convinced me otherwise.  And that has been backed up on MS.

If he can keep you under $100k for all this and it has no squawks overall then he is well worth $3600.

[gsxrpilot]

I'll weigh in as one who would be very skeptical a buyers broker can earn his fee.

You've already said you're searching for the plane. There are only so many places to look and you probably know them all. (But you should be on AllAmerican's text list)

I'm also a bit skeptical of this broker doing the pre-buy. Does he travel to the sellers location to do it? Does he have the equipment required? For example, can he swing the gear?  I'd prefer to send the plane to a well known shop for the pre-buy.

I'm also a skeptic when it comes to finding a "sweet deal" or negotiating a "great price". The higher priced the airplane, the more room there is for negotiation. But on a sub $100K airplane, I don't think you'll find much negotiating room. Now there are plenty of sellers who are asking way too much, but they probably don't intend to actually sell. There's an M20B on my field that hasn't flown in 5 years and is all original including the panel, asking $40K FIRM. It will never sell. But there are so few of these airplanes on the market, that it's not too hard to do a valuation on the airplane and get to a fair price.

But on the other hand... buying an airplane can be a scary proposition and getting all the help you can could be good.

[MIm20c]

2 hours ago, ChrisV said:

I'd like to be in the 80's, later than 84 if possible.  A M20J, but would consider a K, but it would have to be a sweet deal.  Not concerned with interior or exterior (looks that is). 

Here were my needs:  Low to mid time engine and prop, no corrosion, autopilot with alt hold, large WAAS GPS (anything bigger than a 430), modern engine monitor, hangared and flown regularly, 

Here are my wants:  Garmin 750, ADS-B in and out, LR tanks, resealed tanks, engine with roller tappets, any speed mods, 

Mission set:  90% pacific northwest weekend getaways with the wife and toddler, 10% XCs back to Wyoming to see family (4 times a year).

I’d be checking the $85k J on barnstormers.  I don’t think you’ll need LR tanks unless you want to trade your toddler for a parrot.