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Lift AOA Monitor System

John Mininger

By John Mininger
in General Mooney Talk

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Bob - S50 Grand Master

Bob - S50

Posted
Posted

No experience, but if I was going to pay to install an AOA, that's the one I'd get.  The reasons?  Cheap.  Analog.  That means an infinite number of readings instead of a limited number of readings dictated by the number of LED's in the display.  With an infinite number of readings and some flight testing I could determine the proper indications for full flap final, no flap final, max range, max endurance, best glide, turbulence penetration, or any other AOA I found important.  And with a little tape on the glass and a fine tip pen I could label them all.

podair Rising Star

podair

Posted
Posted

I have the CYA 100 (www.ackemma.com)

easy to install , easy to use, and quite a few Mooniacs have it too. The designer is very responsive on email, helped quite a bit when deciding where to install the probe.

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  • 2 months later...
Petehdgs Contributor

Petehdgs

Posted
Posted (edited)

The Lift AOA system is very similar to the older Lift Reserve Indicator.  The owner of Lift Management redesigned the Lift system probe to be easier to install and to adjust than the probe used on the LRI system.  Other than that the two systems operate the same.  They are fully self contained and require no power from any existing aircraft systems.  

Last December, I sold my '68 Cherokee 140 after owning and flying it for 13 1/2 years.  I had installed an LRI in the panel back in 2007 and flew with it for about 10 years.  I trained hard with it and learned a lot about flying and about my aircraft as well.  It is definitely worth having, but you must train with it to fully understand it and what it can do for you.  It is also a lot of fun to play with your aircraft at minimum flying speed utilizing maximum AOA without going over the limit.  This is exactly what the Wright brothers did to teach themselves and the rest of the world how to fly.  The only instrument on the early Wright flyers was an AOA indication.

Right now I am in the process of purchasing a '64 Mooney E Super 21.  I have bought Lift AOA system to install on it and am looking forward to using it on my new (to me) bird.  

https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/angle-of-attack-indicator-3784

Read the last comment by me about using the LRI in N5586F

UPDATE 3/12/19:  I have owned my Super 21 for six months and have logged about 40 hours so far.  I have installed the Lift Indicator and set the needle at the bottom of the green at the best angle of climb.  The Mooney behaves much differently then my Cherokee.  The numbers are right much closer on the Mooney and the mush falls off rather quickly, meaning there is not much bottom performance to be gained like there was in the Cherokee.  I do find I can climb right much steeper with the lift indicator simply because I can hold the right AOA as the aircraft accelerates and it climbs quickly and steeply as as it accelerates out of ground effect.  The best way for me is to rotate in the white and hold the climb at best AOA as the needle rises and the airplane accelerates.  I then raise the gear after the steep climb is established.   With single pilot and full fuel on a cool day, things are happening too fast to lift the gear before establishing the steep climb.  On a hotter day and with more weight on board this method may need adjustment.  But for now, I have me a little hot rod! 

Edited by Petehdgs
exM20K Veteran

exM20K

Posted
Posted (edited)

From the videos I’ve seen of GA planes with AOA indicators, I just don’t see the value in adding another ice collector under the wing. The indicators seem to bounce around quite a bit on final, such that rather than chase an AOA, I would rather trim for a Vref. Maybe it’s the same thing. I have a table of weight, Vso, 1.2 Vso, and 1,3 Vso handy in the cockpit and in ForeFlight, and that works for me. (I did take the time to validate POH Stall speeds at different weights- really important with TKS installation)

 

about the only state of flight where the AOA seems to me to add information beyond airspeed is maneuvering at low speeds and high bank angles. My solution: I took the Vso at various weights and 45 degrees of bank and added those data to another table on my cheat sheet along with 1.3x the Vso. That becomes my minimum pattern speed. 

 

Yes: the AOA would tell me when I overbank, yank and rudder it around after flying through final, but at that point, I’m going around anyway. 

 

-Dan

Edited by exM20K
Stephen Mentor

Stephen

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Frozen Flying said:

That is a useless thing for him to say.

He *definitely was a very good and brave pilot*, but I have met him in person and he also solidly definitely de-rated my opinion of him. My take-away from him was that he is right ... he is such an elite badass that *very few* of his opinions (AoA most certainly included) seem to be relevant to pilots en masse...and should be treated as such (more for entertainment value than guidance to take seriously) -_-

gsxrpilot Grand Master

gsxrpilot

Posted
Posted
On 8/4/2018 at 9:22 AM, exM20K said:

From the videos I’ve seen of GA planes with AOA indicators, I just don’t see the value in adding another ice collector under the wing. The indicators seem to bounce around quite a bit on final, such that rather than chase an AOA, I would rather trim for a Vref. Maybe it’s the same thing. I have a table of weight, Vso, 1.2 Vso, and 1,3 Vso handy in the cockpit and in ForeFlight, and that works for me. (I did take the time to validate POH Stall speeds at different weights- really important with TKS installation)

 

about the only state of flight where the AOA seems to me to add information beyond airspeed is maneuvering at low speeds and high bank angles. My solution: I took the Vso at various weights and 45 degrees of bank and added those data to another table on my cheat sheet along with 1.3x the Vso. That becomes my minimum pattern speed. 

Yes: the AOA would tell me when I overbank, yank and rudder it around after flying through final, but at that point, I’m going around anyway. 

I'll agree with you that I don't see any benefit to an AOA when I'm landing on a runway. Hell, I don't even need an ASI. Once I'm in the pattern, I'll just look out the window and land the airplane.

But in that one off situation where I've lost the engine and am dead sticking it into a small clearing in the trees, or into some other small bit of level ground between fences, trees, cars, or whatever. Or worse if I've lost the engine on takeoff and am deciding which of my bad options to use... I'll be happy to have that AOA indicating my lift situation and allowing me to bank as steep as possible or slow as much as possible without stalling or spinning it in.

I doubt icing will be an issue at that point. And I won't trust my mental math enough to calculate 1.2 Vso, or have time to check my table or get out ForeFlight.

Full disclosure... I have the AOA feature active on my Aspen.

tony Mentor

tony

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 8/4/2018 at 10:22 AM, exM20K said:

 I would rather trim for a Vref. Maybe it’s the same thing. 

Its not the same thing at all.  Vref doesn't take into account weight, bank angle, power effects, CG, etc  AOA is what you need to understand how close you are to stall.  Vref just gives you a speed with a safe margin over stall established during certification testing.  

If you just want to take off from one 5000 ft runway and fly as fast as you can to the next 5000 ft runway, you wont find this device useful.  But if you want to start getting into places that might be a little short with obstacles, then you definitely will.  

Edited by tony

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