Flying passengers and a commercial Pilot with my own mooney

[yankele]

Hey Mooney lovers, question for you guys.

 

As a student pilot, I'm considering buying a 231 or newer for myself. But considering the costs of it, I'd feel way more comfortable if I would know that on my free time i can earn money with my plane once I have my commercial license.

 

If part 135 would not exist, life would be awesome!

 

I would just offer friends great prices to Florida (from new york) on a private plane. But 135 exists and It seems pretty complicated to open my own 135 operations.

 

I was wondering if there is such a thing where I take myself and my plane to a charter company and tell them hey, if you need me to fly anyone anywhere I'm down. Or any other idea.

 

Meaning I'd love to make money with my hypothetical plane by transporting folks around. But because of 135 rules I'm kinda limited to have that certificate or join a 135 and ask them if I can work for them with my plane.

 

Would love to hear from you folks.

 

(Please feel free to share anyway I can make money with me flying my own plane even if it would be a Bush plane n not a mooney.)

 

Thanks for flying by

 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

 

[carusoam]

Yank,

Nice idea, just takes a whole lot more than a commercial license to carry human passengers... and more insurance than an ordinary GA pilot can usually afford.

The CL allows for some flexibility to get paid as a pilot. But carrying passengers isn’t one of those things...

Back in the day, checks got moved between cities using GA. The digital world took up that source of income...

we have one Mooney around here that was born into traffic watching for a living...

If you are an instructor, you could sell a lot of first flight lessons... Ask your insurance broker what the add on cost is going to be.

There is also 100hour inspections that you may want to be familiar with...

PP thoughts only. We have a few ATPs that might have better answers...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[yankele]

Yank,
Nice idea, just takes a whole lot more than a commercial license to carry human passengers... and more insurance than an ordinary GA pilot can usually afford.
The CL allows for some flexibility to get paid as a pilot. But carrying passengers isn’t one of those things...
Back in the day, checks got moved between cities using GA. The digital world took up that source of income...
we have one Mooney around here that was born into traffic watching for a living...
If you are an instructor, you could sell a lot of first flight lessons... Ask your insurance broker what the add on cost is going to be.
There is also 100hour inspections that you may want to be familiar with...
PP thoughts only. We have a few ATPs that might have better answers...
Best regards,
-a-
 

Thanks for the input man. Seems like I'm limited to sight seeing tours n flight instruction. Was just trying to explore all other options.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

See what’s required for flight seeing ops...

there have been a couple of helicopter accidents recently... Grand Canyon and NYC...

The NYC accident was caused by the passenger, Accidently shut off  the fuel, drowned the passengers...

Discuss what you find...

Search around MS...

Look up the Uber for aviation thread...

The FAA has allowed a lot of flexibility in the rules. passenger safety isn’t a place for (their) flexibility.

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[RLCarter]

Sight seeing has a limited range (50 nm?), flight instruction would be a grey area. If you didn't own the aircraft it's easy, your just a charter pilot

[Yetti]

There is a kind of a way.  It is actually how a fair amount of corporate flight departments operate Part 91.  You would want to be well versed to pull this off.

Let's say your friend owns a plane.   He can "hire" you to fly his plane with your commercial certificate. But he would most likely not be able to charge other passengers to fly on his plane.

Rules are so wacky that I won't give rides to fellow work people when we are going to the same meeting.  If there is any sort of reimbursement then it would be like I am transporting them for my employer.

Once you own a plane you realize that you want to be very good friends with the people you fly.    They should trust your skills and you have a duty to keep your skills and equipment sharp to keep them safe. 

Keep the enthusiasm for flying going.

 

[Marauder]

7 hours ago, yankele said:

 

Hey Mooney lovers, question for you guys.

 

As a student pilot, I'm considering buying a 231 or newer for myself. But considering the costs of it, I'd feel way more comfortable if I would know that on my free time i can earn money with my plane once I have my commercial license.

 

If part 135 would not exist, life would be awesome!

 

I would just offer friends great prices to Florida (from new york) on a private plane. But 135 exists and It seems pretty complicated to open my own 135 operations.

 

I was wondering if there is such a thing where I take myself and my plane to a charter company and tell them hey, if you need me to fly anyone anywhere I'm down. Or any other idea.

 

Meaning I'd love to make money with my hypothetical plane by transporting folks around. But because of 135 rules I'm kinda limited to have that certificate or join a 135 and ask them if I can work for them with my plane.

 

Would love to hear from you folks.

 

(Please feel free to share anyway I can make money with me flying my own plane even if it would be a Bush plane n not a mooney.)

 

Thanks for flying by

 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

 

 

When it comes to charging customers, not only would you be subjected to additional requirements, so would your plane. 100 hour inspections, complying with service bulletins, FAA inspections and who knows what else might be required. And those costs would be occurred whether you have a paying passenger or not.

Also reach out to Seth Meyers on this site. He was entertaining setting up some sort of shuttle service into the Washington D.C. area. Think he has a good understanding of the situation.

[Yetti]

If you are trying to make money with the plane, you could also look into leasebacks with a flight school.   Most people would say a Mooney is not a good choice for leaseback, but to each his own.

[neilpilot]

7 hours ago, yankele said:

As a student pilot, I'm considering buying a 231 or newer for myself. But considering the costs of it, I'd feel way more comfortable if I would know that on my free time i can earn money with my plane once I have my commercial license.

If want to buy a plane and need to reduce your cost of flying, consider a partner.  Either way, you need to realize that your costs only begin with the purchase.

[INA201]

How’s the sightseeing flight work as a business model? 

[SantosDumont]

There is no way to make money with a GA plane.  GA is only for turning big piles of money into smaller piles of money. 

If someone tells you they are making money it’s highly probable they are cutting corners and skipping some rules. 

[bradp]

You’re not going to make any money on a Mooney.  Unless you’re doing contract work for Ariel spotting / inspection etc and then it’s the wrong choice of plane anyway.  You could possibly swing a 91 subpart k to be the pilot for a fractional ownership model but you’re opening yourself up for mucho liability exposure.  Better to separate ownership aspirations from career aspirations unless you want into the 135  world. 

[jlunseth]

You basically need three certificates/authorizations. The pilot has to have a commercial certificate and a class 2 at least. That means the pilot can fly for money. But then you need to have an operators certificate for the organization (you) that hires the pilot and keeps the plane, and that is not simple. As mentioned, you would need to get commercial insurance, I don't know what that is for aviation but usually it is at least ten times more than private insurance in other insurance areas, i.e. you private insurance might be 2,400 and your commercial would be 24,000.  The ins. co. will have maintenance and other requirements for you to meet that are separate from the FAA requirements.  And of course the aircraft must be equipped and maintained to commercial standards (i.e. 100 hour inspections, TBO is mandatory, etc. etc.) and operated by the commercial operator. So there you go, have fun with the hoop jumping.

[Yetti]

You'd probably be better off flying for one of the 135s that do this kind of thing.   My former flight instructor is out of atlanta and flying for the people that have a bunch of Cirris and do charters.   Should be able to fly the Mooney to the job site though.

[FloridaMan]

You'd definitely be better off flying somebody else's airplane. If you're considering buying a 231 and subsidizing it by flying others then it may be out of your budget. I believe the regs allow you to have others pay into the actual operational expenses (fuel, oil, ramp fees) so long as you pay more than your fraction and you can offset some of your expenses that way.

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/1402/what-do-the-terms-holding-out-and-common-carriage-mean

[RLCarter]

the 135 cert is a pain to start from scratch, aircraft and pilot has to listed on the cert (can be changed), opts manual along with maintinance manual and a Director of Maintenance (DOM), Ins companies won't even look at you with less than 500hrs. Not wanting to discourage you but the min for Private Pliot is 40 hrs, 40 more for Instrument Rating, 50hrs of X-country and 20hrs for the Commercial, so if you fly your ass off and really study and make it at the min times your still 100hrs short for the min of 250hrs for the Commercial. If your like most it's hard to devote that much time in a short time frame. Get you PPL and gain some experience and take some trips, start your Instrument Rating at around 80 ~ 100 hrs, start the Commercial rating somewhere around 230 hrs and you'll be in good shape hour wise when you finish up. It's a lot better to come in from a flight and hand the dispatcher a squawk list and go home and let someone else write the checks 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Hello Yankele,

Parts 135 & etc weren’t crafted to be an inconvenience. They’re explicitly designed to prevent what you propose. 

Part 91 gives you great freedom to fly yourself all over the country at pretty much whatever risk level you deem acceptable. 

However you are not permitted to transfer that risk via a commercial transaction to third parties unable to assess those dangers for themselves.  

Have fun and keep flying.  Safely.  

[201er]

12 hours ago, yankele said:

I would just offer friends great prices to Florida (from new york) on a private plane. But 135 exists and It seems pretty complicated to open my own 135 operations.

Great prices to Florida wont even pay your gas! I see $140 round trip tickets. At that rate you don't even need a commercial ticket. Pro-rata share will more than take care of it.

[aviatoreb]

13 hours ago, yankele said:

 

Hey Mooney lovers, question for you guys.

 

As a student pilot, I'm considering buying a 231 or newer for myself. But considering the costs of it, I'd feel way more comfortable if I would know that on my free time i can earn money with my plane once I have my commercial license.

 

If part 135 would not exist, life would be awesome!

 

I would just offer friends great prices to Florida (from new york) on a private plane. But 135 exists and It seems pretty complicated to open my own 135 operations.

 

I was wondering if there is such a thing where I take myself and my plane to a charter company and tell them hey, if you need me to fly anyone anywhere I'm down. Or any other idea.

 

Meaning I'd love to make money with my hypothetical plane by transporting folks around. But because of 135 rules I'm kinda limited to have that certificate or join a 135 and ask them if I can work for them with my plane.

 

Would love to hear from you folks.

 

(Please feel free to share anyway I can make money with me flying my own plane even if it would be a Bush plane n not a mooney.)

 

Thanks for flying by

 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

 

 

You can do banner towing, crop dusting, ....

No "common carriage."

You can fly for compensation in someone elses airplane that THEY own personally.  But don't think you can setup something goofy where you really own it and they pretend to own it since the FAA is wise to all sorts of tricks.  But if they truly own it you can fly their plane, and them and get paid for it.

P.S.  I am not a lawyer so don't listen to anything I say regarding law.

Edited April 17, 2018 by aviatoreb

[yankele]

See what’s required for flight seeing ops...
there have been a couple of helicopter accidents recently... Grand Canyon and NYC...
The NYC accident was caused by the passenger, Accidently shut off  the fuel, drowned the passengers...
Discuss what you find...
Search around MS...
Look up the Uber for aviation thread...
The FAA has allowed a lot of flexibility in the rules. passenger safety isn’t a place for (their) flexibility.
PP thoughts only...
Best regards,
-a-
 

Thanks man.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[yankele]

Great prices to Florida wont even pay your gas! I see $140 round trip tickets. At that rate you don't even need a commercial ticket. Pro-rata share will more than take care of it.

If you'd divide it by 3-4 passengers for a private plane, the numbers are pretty good.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[yankele]

Hello Yankele,
Parts 135 & etc weren’t crafted to be an inconvenience. They’re explicitly designed to prevent what you propose. 
Part 91 gives you great freedom to fly yourself all over the country at pretty much whatever risk level you deem acceptable. 
However you are not permitted to transfer that risk via a commercial transaction to third parties unable to assess those dangers for themselves.  
Have fun and keep flying.  Safely.  

Great explanation man!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[yankele]

the 135 cert is a pain to start from scratch, aircraft and pilot has to listed on the cert (can be changed), opts manual along with maintinance manual and a Director of Maintenance (DOM), Ins companies won't even look at you with less than 500hrs. Not wanting to discourage you but the min for Private Pliot is 40 hrs, 40 more for Instrument Rating, 50hrs of X-country and 20hrs for the Commercial, so if you fly your ass off and really study and make it at the min times your still 100hrs short for the min of 250hrs for the Commercial. If your like most it's hard to devote that much time in a short time frame. Get you PPL and gain some experience and take some trips, start your Instrument Rating at around 80 ~ 100 hrs, start the Commercial rating somewhere around 230 hrs and you'll be in good shape hour wise when you finish up. It's a lot better to come in from a flight and hand the dispatcher a squawk list and go home and let someone else write the checks 

Good point. Thanks

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[yankele]

You'd definitely be better off flying somebody else's airplane. If you're considering buying a 231 and subsidizing it by flying others then it may be out of your budget. I believe the regs allow you to have others pay into the actual operational expenses (fuel, oil, ramp fees) so long as you pay more than your fraction and you can offset some of your expenses that way.
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/1402/what-do-the-terms-holding-out-and-common-carriage-mean

Thanks.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[yankele]

You'd probably be better off flying for one of the 135s that do this kind of thing.   My former flight instructor is out of atlanta and flying for the people that have a bunch of Cirris and do charters.   Should be able to fly the Mooney to the job site though.

Good point.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk