Bad day for Mooney’s on Spruce Creek

[ilovecornfields]

22 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

simple rule to keep the instructor shut up during an IPC on approach....keep the needles centered. (and dont forget to put the gear down)

I thought you guys did this on purpose? My first instructor pretended to have a panic attack and opened the door and acted like he was trying to climb out of the airplane as I was about to do my first solo in an Arrow. When we landed I basically asked him “what is your malfunction?” and he replied that he just wanted to make sure I didn’t get distracted and forget to put the gear down. He didn’t like the idea of someone doing their first solo in a complex airplane so he wanted to make sure I didn’t get distracted and forget the gear (in retrospect, he had some other issues as well).

I’ve had a couple of instructors pull the gear circuit breaker to see if I noticed and I just assumed that all the talking was intended to distract me to see how well I managed things. It seems like the only plausible explanation since my needles are always perfectly centered! 

[kortopates]

12 hours ago, Marauder said:

The worst violator of my sterile cockpit rule has been instructors giving me an IPC. Always telling them to shut up.


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No doubt, I am sure I’ve been one of them to some too. But sometimes things like 91.175 may require some discussion. In fairness, the gear should have been down by the FAF, and I try to ask what’s wrong if it’s not well before getting to short final and minimums. It’s a tough call because we all want to learn from our mistakes but our #1 responsibility as a CFI is provide a safe environment for learning and I look at a pilot deviation in the same way. I’ll be in more trouble than my client.


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Edited March 12, 2018 by kortopates

[tigers2007]

Having the gear down is the only way I can control my descent speed. No way I can slow down without them for my “carrier style” landings.


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[Bennett]

I thought you guys did this on purpose? My first instructor pretended to have a panic attack and opened the door and acted like he was trying to climb out of the airplane as I was about to do my first solo in an Arrow. When we landed I basically asked him “what is your malfunction?” and he replied that he just wanted to make sure I didn’t get distracted and forget to put the gear down. He didn’t like the idea of someone doing their first solo in a complex airplane so he wanted to make sure I didn’t get distracted and forget the gear (in retrospect, he had some other issues as well).
I’ve had a couple of instructors pull the gear circuit breaker to see if I noticed and I just assumed that all the talking was intended to distract me to see how well I managed things. It seems like the only plausible explanation since my needles are always perfectly centered! 

My dear friend and CFII is diabolical in his efforts to distract me on takeoff, cruise, and especially landing. Circuit breaker pulls while he directs me to look at something outside on the left are normal. In fact when I just get to land normally, I wonder why, or suspect there is something I may have missed. When I fly alone, which is most of the time, I mentally see him in the right seat giving me grief. Keeps me sharp and focused. In my J I tend to drop my gear a little early (just as I get to gear speed) as it helps to slow down to flap speed. At my home field terrain and complex airspace keeps you high to close to the airport. It may be heresy but I also use speed brakes to help out on the “slam dunks” that are sometimes necessary.


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[carusoam]

Wondering...

Does discussing GU landings help us prevent them from happening?

Does being a member of the MS community have inherent value?

Or just wishful thinking... 

We certainly learn about the multiple facets of distractions.  We clearly recognize a CFI intentionally throwing us a few...

I try to get three gumps, and on short final, a glance at the green light, prior to committing to the final deed...

The long body has four powerful braking systems while flying...

1) Put the gear down...

2) push the prop control in...

3) deploy the speed brakes...

4) full flaps and balanced trim...

Any two can mask the presence of the others.

 

there are at least two types of pilots...

1) One that thinks distractions are easy to ignore.

2) One that understands how distractions inhibit the usual brain’s pseudo-multitasking ability.

 

Then there is the unfortunate pilot that ignored the distracting sound of the gear horn.... perfect GU landing...

 

+1 for the P2 and other voiced gear up alerts....

 

Solution.... checklist.  

Chance of it working... <100%.  No better solution available...?

 

 

Reading this thread at least makes me think about it again...

Best regards,

-a-

[Mooneymite]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Solution.... checklist.  

Chance of it working... <100%.  No better solution available...?

Checklists are a wonderful aid.  I believe in them and use them "religiously".  However, I can tell you for certain that the same distraction that makes one put the gear down will make that same pilot forget the checklist.

Obviously nothing is 100% except death and taxes.  However, the airlines' track record would substantiate the answer is the EGPWS.

[Andy95W]

13 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

I thought you guys did this on purpose? 

My favorite thing to do on a BFR, as we join the traffic pattern, is to ask, "So, what are you doing for Christmas this year?"

The reason is that most guys our age fly with their wives.  A lot of our spouses, especially the ones that aren't regular right seat passengers, can sense the heightened state of our minds as we enter the traffic pattern, and seem to subconsciously think "oh, good, I have his attention".  And then they start talking.

If you tell me to shut up, I do.  If you don't, I make sure to order a go around on short final.  Either way, we have something to talk about after landing.

 

 

[MIm20c]

58 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

I wish that is what they were talking about. It is usually a bunch of questions on how things work on my panel or them trying to figure out how to fail a triple redundant panel.


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This happens on every approach but I’m in the process of instrument training so I think he’s trying his best to distract me at critical times. 

[gsxrpilot]

18 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

My favorite thing to do on a BFR, as we join the traffic pattern, is to ask, "So, what are you doing for Christmas this year?"

The reason is that most guys our age fly with their wives.  A lot of our spouses, especially the ones that aren't regular right seat passengers, can sense the heightened state of our minds as we enter the traffic pattern, and seem to subconsciously think "oh, good, I have his attention".  And then they start talking.

If you tell me to shut up, I do.  If you don't, I make sure to order a go around on short final.  Either way, we have something to talk about after landing.

I've used the isolate button on my PMA450a.

[PTK]

4 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

That may well be true.  And I have a hard time imagining it.  And yet it keeps happening.  Therefore I choose to believe it is not inconceivable and could happen to me, knock on wood, and I must humbly work to keep my imperfect self from making this and many other mistakes by deliberate attentiveness.

There's no good excuse for it to be occuring at such epidemic proportions. If we are forgetting to put the gear down we are forgetting other items too. Hence my question: are we also forgetting to slow down? And I don't necessarily agree with the "there are those who've done it and those who will." In my opinion that attitude diminishes and trivializes the importance of the checklist. 

[SpeedyJoe]

FWIW, I got trained a while back to never mess with the flaps as long as the gear is up. So every time I feel like I should lower the flaps now, I automatically check if the gear is down because otherwise I shouldn't be messing the flaps. What about the the "no flaps" practice landing, you ask? Well, I also use a check list and the GUMPS check twice (FAF/abeam #s + short final).

IMHO live is about managing probabilities. With the hard connection "no flaps without gear down" I helped to significantly lower the probability that it will happen to me. As others have stated, that doesn't make it zero probability, but it does help.

 

[gsxrpilot]

Yep, I've got no use for instructors trying to be a bit too clever for their own good.

[wishboneash]

8 hours ago, amillet said:

On the few occasions I have forgotten the gear, the inability to slow down on final has been a reminder.

Never usually happens on the first approach since the damn thing won't slow down without gear down - more likely on a go-around/multiple approaches or pattern work when one is not really flying fast to notice. So I do check twice or more for gear down.

[Guitarmaster]

GUMPS works fine and is generally done further out, but i add, "short final check.". Four items said out loud....

Gear in the green
Flaps set for landing
Prop full.
Mixture appropriate for go around.



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[ArtVandelay]

As I have forgotten things I added and changed my gumps check to
Prop
Electric boost pump
Gear
Flaps
Autopilot
Radio
Mixture
Speed Brakes

[Piloto]

I have one of these voice gear alert, and found it to be a must to have.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/voicegearalert.php?clickkey=46870

José

[DonMuncy]

7 minutes ago, Piloto said:

I have one of these voice gear alert, and found it to be a must to have.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/voicegearalert.php?clickkey=46870

José

I agree. Probably the best value of anything I have put on my plane.

[N5937Q]

Electronics international, AV-17 is cheap insurance. It only cost $250 and I will tell you for sure she is so annoying yelling at you to put the gear down that you will not forget.


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[MyNameIsNobody]

22 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

I agree. Probably the best value of anything I have put on my plane.

+1

These don’t have to occur from pilot error.  Distractions do happen with VERY expensive consequences.  Those that only use a check list and super pilot skill...Good luck with that.  Last time this came up I was ripped on for the investment by a member on this site.

I chuckle in his general direction.

Don’t be that guy.  <than .5AMU plus install and you get the added benefit of a verbal pre-stall warning.  This is as much a no-brainer as a shoulder strap for front seats an engine and CO monitor.

[M20F-1968]

I recently put in the P2 system.   It is activated at a programmed airspeed (such as <85 knots) and has a male voice which states gear down is gear is safe and a female voice stating Gear, Gear if unsafe.  It remindes me to do Gumps a final time, and tug on the Johnson bar to insure it is indeed latched.  Seems to be a worthwhile investment.

John Breda

[Seth]

11 hours ago, carusoam said:

Wondering...

Does discussing GU landings help us prevent them from happening?

Does being a member of the MS community have inherent value?

Or just wishful thinking... 

 

Actually yes

I'll have to pull the study, but by actively participating in a type group organization, your accident rate drops by something like 100x vs the rest of the general aviation population.  

So by discussing these incidents and being a member of MooneySpace - YES - it makes you statistically a safer pilot.

Watch, we'll be the two next to gear up . . .

Now I have to find that study!

-Seth

 

[xcrmckenna]

I totally understand there are far better pilots out there than me. And there are pilots out there that will never gear up their plane. But I don’t view myself in either category. I believe I can get distracted and forget to put the gear down and I try to prepare myself with every flight and never think it can’t happen to me.




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[Jeff_S]

Bad things happen to good pilots.  Let all of those who have never bent metal, or at least come awfully close, raise their hands. My hand is not raised.

One thing I do find a bit hard to fathom, though, being an Ovation driver like the incident pilot, is that for me the gear is a primary method for slowing down. It is certainly possible to be on final with speed brakes and flaps out, but flaps can't come out until 105 knots, whereas gear is out at 140 knots.  So gear is always the first thing that comes out for me on any landing. It would just feel downright WEIRD to be in that position, especially since if you look at the track on FlightAware he flew a normal pattern.

But again, distractions can be a powerful thing. One day, once I've analyzed it enough internally, I'll write up a story about a recent flight where I found myself low and slow trying a circling approach to a gusty mountain airport with my mother-in-law on board.  Even SHE was wondering why it took me three go-arounds before finally getting it right. Fourth time was the charm there!

[co2bruce]

Was always taught.......if it doesn’t feel right it isn’t. There is no way your speed will be correct with the gear tucked away. Your power will be way off if you are slow enough. Same goes for the flaps. Speed and configuration (especially in the Mooney) will be and feel the same every time. If something feels weird Go Around and see what it is. Do not continue the approach.

[aviatoreb]

I find it interesting that several people take the position that it is inexcusable and a gear up could never happen to them.  As I said earlier, I feel that it could happen to anyone including me, and the best way to avoid such things is to understand that, and therefore to humbly take every sincere action possible to avoid it by always being the humble student.