Vintage Mooneys and runout engines

[TheDyood]

Hi all,

I've had my PPL for all of a week but I have been looking at my options for a while now. I'm at a field with limited, if any, rental opportunities, and 250nm+ to the places I would like to be spending more of my time. The more I look at things, the more a C/E/F seems to be the way to go.

What I don't wholly understand, but have a grasp on, is trying to find a plane at a price that makes sense. There was a great discussion late last year about pricing a plane that has been sitting, and brought up the general economics of buying a vintage bird, trying to bring it to modern times, all the while not losing your shirt in the process (especially with a high time engine). This is where I get lost and have been trying to research to no avail. I get that avionics are expensive, as are autopilots. However, it seems that there is actually movement toward competition and competitive pricing. This is great, especially for someone who is VFR and looking to get into a plane for IFR and beyond.

Engines, engines I can't seem to find clear guidance. Looking at airpowerinc.com, who seem to have no problem publishing pricing, it looks like a new O-360-A1A is $75k, rebuilt is $50k, and overhauled is $44k, not including a core ($16k). I understand there are cheaper overhaul deals from reputable shops. Something crossed my eye about a shop not taking a core. How often is this the case?

Basically, I can almost argue myself into a $30k plane knowing that it might be another $30k for engine and avionics, and that if/when it comes to sell, you won't see most of that money again. What I can't see is throwing $60k at it for negligible resale increase. I tend to run things into the ground as opposed to trading up every couple of years, so this would kind of be a forever plane.

I've really enjoyed this site, and there seems to be a great amount of knowledge here. Please feel free to share any wisdom you might have.

[1964-M20E]

When looking at buying a plane you need to define you mission.  You already defined part of it 250NM +/- would be your typical trip.

How many people will yo have?

How much stuff do you want to bring?

The early models B to F are excellent planes that can be had for low initial investment.  As many will say get a pre purchase inspection done by an independent aviation mechanic.

For 250nm trips a Cessna 172 would be suitable as well and you initial insurance would be less than in a Mooney with retractable gear.

Tell us about your general location and where you plan on flying?  Mountains might change what you look at in planes.  Try to get with different people and fly different airplanes before you decide on any model and look at the  the capabilities of the plane are and get the one that fits 80% of the flying you will do.  Your location will help there are many here who are just itching for an excuse to fly and show off there machines.

 

[larryb]

It’s too early in your flying career to be thinking of a forever plane. Things change. A vintage plane only makes sense at this point to fly and maintain and gain experience in. But not to majorly upgrade.

[TheDyood]

 

7 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

When looking at buying a plane you need to define you mission.  You already defined part of it 250NM +/- would be your typical trip.

How many people will yo have?

How much stuff do you want to bring?

The early models B to F are excellent planes that can be had for low initial investment.  As many will say get a pre purchase inspection done by an independent aviation mechanic.

For 250nm trips a Cessna 172 would be suitable as well and you initial insurance would be less than in a Mooney with retractable gear.

Tell us about your general location and where you plan on flying?  Mountains might change what you look at in planes.  Try to get with different people and fly different airplanes before you decide on any model and look at the  the capabilities of the plane are and get the one that fits 80% of the flying you will do.  Your location will help there are many here who are just itching for an excuse to fly and show off there machines.

 

I'd like to carry four, but two is more than likely. Mountains are a possibility. I'm in E. Washington, the Cascade pass is at 5,440 and a lot of time to get there. Most of the peaks sit at 9,000 and under. There could be some real mountain travel (Sierra Nevadas/Truckee) but not until a mountain checkout down there. Otherwise, I can see the central coast and north bay of CA in the future as well. Mission and weight and balance wise, I don't see a lot of issues with the M20 (barring a high DA day in Tahoe, but that's going to hit a lot of GA planes). Most of time is in high wings (150/172/182) and a couple hours in an F. I liked it, but am definitely seeking more opportunities.

I think my big concern is if there really is a way to not get too upside down on a 50 year old plane whose engine is due, especially if you don't have any plans on selling it and it's well looked after at PPI and annual. And if the engine does need to be replaced/remaned/overhauled, what is the worst case scenario and how much of that can be a surprise post purchase.

[Marauder]

Hi all,

I've had my PPL for all of a week but I have been looking at my options for a while now. I'm at a field with limited, if any, rental opportunities, and 250nm+ to the places I would like to be spending more of my time. The more I look at things, the more a C/E/F seems to be the way to go.

What I don't wholly understand, but have a grasp on, is trying to find a plane at a price that makes sense. There was a great discussion late last year about pricing a plane that has been sitting, and brought up the general economics of buying a vintage bird, trying to bring it to modern times, all the while not losing your shirt in the process (especially with a high time engine). This is where I get lost and have been trying to research to no avail. I get that avionics are expensive, as are autopilots. However, it seems that there is actually movement toward competition and competitive pricing. This is great, especially for someone who is VFR and looking to get into a plane for IFR and beyond.

Engines, engines I can't seem to find clear guidance. Looking at airpowerinc.com, who seem to have no problem publishing pricing, it looks like a new O-360-A1A is $75k, rebuilt is $50k, and overhauled is $44k, not including a core ($16k). I understand there are cheaper overhaul deals from reputable shops. Something crossed my eye about a shop not taking a core. How often is this the case?

Basically, I can almost argue myself into a $30k plane knowing that it might be another $30k for engine and avionics, and that if/when it comes to sell, you won't see most of that money again. What I can't see is throwing $60k at it for negligible resale increase. I tend to run things into the ground as opposed to trading up every couple of years, so this would kind of be a forever plane.

I've really enjoyed this site, and there seems to be a great amount of knowledge here. Please feel free to share any wisdom you might have.

 

As we have seen a number of times on this forum, people who move into ownership seem to be surprised by the costs.

 

When I bought my F in 1991 I had a fixed budget. I found a low time F, paid for it with cash and over the past 27 years have been improving it as the budget allows. The budget also included saving money specifically for the plane. Not college education, not home remodeling, but for the plane. That tends to minimize the family discussions about priorities for the earmarked monies. If I couldn’t save for the plane, it wasn’t going to work. And when I say “saved” I mean for the engine overhauls, avionics and the money needed to fix the unexpected.

 

The first thing you need to do is find a healthy airframe. Don’t get caught up in the paint or the interior but rather concentrate on a clean airframe, with a solid engine or an engine that is near TBO and this is factored into the cost and working avionics that you want and/or need. Don’t get fooled into thinking costs are going to get lower. They won’t. Trust me I know.

 

Make a list of the things you want in the plane. Make sure that list includes must haves and wants. If there is a plane without one of the must haves you either factor that into your budget for the acquisition cost or you move onto the next plane.

 

In your plane search you will find the ones that have been maintained and those that have been held onto. You are looking for the best of the maintained ones that you can afford.

 

As for the budget, unless you have a lot of disposable income, don’t finance it. Something ugly may come up and now you are saddled with the monthly payment and a large cost. There is one guy on this site going through this now.

 

Even if you find a decent plane,plan to have at least $10k for the unexpected costs in the first year that may come up. And they do, stuff on the annual, a busted radio, a new servo or a jug on the engine.

 

As for the engine. There are options. If you find a decent plane with a runout engine and it is priced accordingly, you have the option to go with a field overhaul, a shop overhaul or a Lycoming refurbished/overhaul. And there is a range depending on how much of the accessories you plan on overhauling at the same time. For me, at a minimum it would be mags, fuel/carb accessories and other accessories depending on age and time on the engine.

 

Just do us a favor. Don’t talk yourself into something you can’t afford to own. Build out a spreadsheet of the costs associated with ownership and see if $X per year is palatable. I plan on $25k per year all in.

 

 

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[TheDyood]

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

 

As we have seen a number of times on this forum, people who move into ownership seem to be surprised by the costs.

When I bought my F in 1991 I had a fixed budget. I found a low time F, paid for it with cash and over the past 27 years have been improving it as the budget allows. The budget also included saving money specifically for the plane. Not college education, not home remodeling, but for the plane. That tends to minimize the family discussions about priorities for the earmarked monies. If I couldn’t save for the plane, it wasn’t going to work. And when I say “saved” I mean for the engine overhauls, avionics and the money needed to fix the unexpected.

The first thing you need to do is find a healthy airframe. Don’t get caught up in the paint or the interior but rather concentrate on a clean airframe, with a solid engine or an engine that is near TBO and this is factored into the cost and working avionics that you want and/or need. Don’t get fooled into thinking costs are going to get lower. They won’t. Trust me I know.

Make a list of the things you want in the plane. Make sure that list includes must haves and wants. If there is a plane without one of the must haves you either factor that into your budget for the acquisition cost or you move onto the next plane.

In your plane search you will find the ones that have been maintained and those that have been held onto. You are looking for the best of the maintained ones that you can afford.

As for the budget, unless you have a lot of disposable income, don’t finance it. Something ugly may come up and now you are saddled with the monthly payment and a large cost. There is one guy on this site going through this now.

Even if you find a decent plane,plan to have at least $10k for the unexpected costs in the first year that may come up. And they do, stuff on the annual, a busted radio, a new servo or a jug on the engine.

As for the engine. There are options. If you find a decent plane with a runout engine and it is priced accordingly, you have go with a field overhaul, a shop overhaul or a Lycoming refurbished/overhaul. And there is a range depending on how much of the accessories you plan on overhauling at the same time. For me, at a minimum it would be mags, fuel/carb accessories and other accessories depending on age and time on the engine.

Just do us a favor. Don’t talk yourself into something you can’t afford to own. Build out a spreadsheet of the costs associated with ownership and see if $X per year is palatable. I plan on $25k per year all in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

Like I tell people who are interested in the wine business, everyone needs a hole to throw money down. All great points, and all things to take into consideration. Thank you!

 

I'm definitely of the mind that there are a few things that it needs, and everything else is gravy. Airframe above all. 

[skydvrboy]

... and most of all.  CONGRATS ON PASSING YOUR CHECK RIDE!!!

[Oldguy]

34 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Just do us a favor. Don’t talk yourself into something you can’t afford to own.

Or maintain. 

Look at buying a plane and start throwing out worst case scenarios and make sure they don't wreck you. First annual after purchase and big chunks of metal in your engine. Avionics die and need repair/replacement. Things like all of us have experienced or read about here on MS.

And look at what your insurance will run as a low time pilot. That can be another chunk of change.

Like @Marauder intimated, put things down on paper and take all of the emotion out of it. There are some great pigs out there with nice lipstick, and your job is to find and avoid.

[TheDyood]

2 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

... and most of all.  CONGRATS ON PASSING YOUR CHECK RIDE!!!

Thank you! I'm oscillating between being stoked that I don't have to study anymore and wondering if I should start looking at some IFR material...

[gsxrpilot]

First of all, any Mooney model C through V will fit your mission. I currently fly a 252, but previously had an M20C and flew it across the Cascades a couple of times and into Colorado many times without any issues. If the backseat is always full, the short bodies C,E might not be as comfortable, but they will easily handle flights with four when needed.

Now to your real questions... how do you do vintage airplane ownership without getting upside down. The first thing I'd do... and I did... was to start tracking every Mooney listed for sale anywhere by model.  I think you'll find the ceiling for an M20C is about $50K, an M20E is about $65K and an F is about $80K. For that money you want a currently airworthy airplane, clean airframe, mid-time (500-1000 hour) engine, WAAS GPS and autopilot and regularly/currently flying.

The best "deal" on any of these airplanes will be to buy at the top of the price range. The owner will undoubtedly have $10K to $50K over the asking price, invested and you the buyer takes advantage of that. 

You'll also note by running the numbers, that a C that is in cherry condition, good avionics and autopilot, but with a runout engine, and an asking price over $25K, will likely put you upside down by the time you do the engine. With the E and F you have more room to work without going upside down economically.

As the size of the vintage fleet goes down, examples that are still good deals, get more and more rare. 

A neglected C that's been sitting for a few years with original avionics, leaky tanks, and either an engine that's runout or has just been sitting for some time, is really worth no more than it's weight in scrap aluminum. 

But if you find that good M20C, E, or F, like many on this forum, that is flying regularly and has been kept somewhat up to date, buy it. You'll love it. 

BUT... even this is no guarantee of ownership success... as @Marauder said, you need to be able to handle the worst case scenario. You really need to have the cash to be able to drop $10K immediately after purchase, and $5K per year above and beyond normal and expected expenses. And be able to locate funds equal to the cost of an engine in the worst case scenario (credit, home equity, etc.) And in the very worst case, write off the value of the airplane and walk away. (I almost had to do this with my M20K 252). 

In spite of all this... we here at MooneySpace, wouldn't do any differently. I've been a Mooney owner since March 2014 and my ONLY regret is all the years prior that I didn't own a Mooney.

[TheDyood]

9 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

First of all, any Mooney model C through V will fit your mission. I currently fly a 252, but previously had an M20C and flew it across the Cascades a couple of times and into Colorado many times without any issues. If the backseat is always full, the short bodies C,E might not be as comfortable, but they will easily handle flights with four when needed.

Now to your real questions... how do you do vintage airplane ownership without getting upside down. The first thing I'd do... and I did... was to start tracking every Mooney listed for sale anywhere by model.  I think you'll find the ceiling for an M20C is about $50K, an M20E is about $65K and an F is about $80K. For that money you want a currently airworthy airplane, clean airframe, mid-time (500-1000 hour) engine, WAAS GPS and autopilot and regularly/currently flying.

The best "deal" on any of these airplanes will be to buy at the top of the price range. The owner will undoubtedly have $10K to $50K over the asking price, invested and you the buyer takes advantage of that. 

You'll also note by running the numbers, that a C that is in cherry condition, good avionics and autopilot, but with a runout engine, and an asking price over $25K, will likely put you upside down by the time you do the engine. With the E and F you have more room to work without going upside down economically.

As the size of the vintage fleet goes down, examples that are still good deals, get more and more rare. 

A neglected C that's been sitting for a few years with original avionics, leaky tanks, and either an engine that's runout or has just been sitting for some time, is really worth no more than it's weight in scrap aluminum. 

But if you find that good M20C, E, or F, like many on this forum, that is flying regularly and has been kept somewhat up to date, buy it. You'll love it. 

BUT... even this is no guarantee of ownership success... as @Marauder said, you need to be able to handle the worst case scenario. You really need to have the cash to be able to drop $10K immediately after purchase, and $5K per year above and beyond normal and expected expenses. And be able to locate funds equal to the cost of an engine in the worst case scenario (credit, home equity, etc.) And in the very worst case, write off the value of the airplane and walk away. (I almost had to do this with my M20K 252). 

In spite of all this... we here at MooneySpace, wouldn't do any differently. I've been a Mooney owner since March 2014 and my ONLY regret is all the years prior that I didn't own a Mooney.

Thank you, this was what I was looking for in the ramblings that was the first post. Am I close with the following?

Overhaul: $20k

Avionics (say 2x G5 and a used 430): $15k

Paint or interior: $10k

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, TheDyood said:

Thank you, this was what I was looking for in the ramblings that was the first post. Am I close with the following?

Overhaul: $20k

Avionics (say 2x G5 and a used 430): $15k

Paint or interior: $10k

Yes, but that's probably best case. I personally wouldn't worry about paint or interior until a few years into ownership and you know you've got a keeper. 

With avionics the most expensive upgrade is an autopilot. Next would be a WAAS GPS like a 430W. So an Stec30 autopilot and a 430W GPS would be right at the top of my wishlist for any plane I was looking at. In fact, they might be on the must have list. If those are in the plane, I can take it from there...

Send me a PM with your email and I'll send you the wish list I was using and an example of what a good one looks like.

[Marauder]

Thank you! I'm oscillating between being stoked that I don't have to study anymore and wondering if I should start looking at some IFR material...

Start the instrument. More you know about flying the more you will appreciate what makes this different than most activities you can be doing.


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[Yetti]

Wait you are trying to make a plane make financial sense out of plane.  Did you do the same when you bought a car?   I was talking to the A&P today about how it may make more sense to just part out a plane when the motor gives up the ghost.

[MIm20c]

The way I look at it is flying is expensive. There are very few free rides. 

Local rentals are $150-200 per Hobbs hour in my area. I’m planning on 150-200 hrs per year. I hope to stay right side up for a couple years but who knows what will happen. If I have to put an engine in after a couple years I’ll just get the job done. 

Upside down? I’m not one who sells stocks when they are bottoming out. I’ll buy them when I feel they are a good value and keep buying during any further declines. It’s worked out great for me so far...

If I get upside down in my C I’ll just fly the piss out of it until I get my value out of it.  It does not take long with the savings vs renting a capable plane. 

My ramblings

[MB65E]

Double the time, double the cost. Cross your fingers and have fun!! 

There is a personal value of having an airworthy airplane. That value is usually much more than what others will ever think of paying for the same airplane. 

We've really enjoyed our little E. 

-Matt

[MB65E]

Sometimes triple and you'll be close!!

-Matt

[BKlott]

We could write volumes about buying and owning airplanes.

Back in the 1960s my Dad talked about the “big bills” and trying to avoid those while buying and owning an airplane. His “big bills” were the engine job, the paint job and the interior. If an airplane had a high time engine or a lousy paint job, he wasn’t interested. End of discussion.

Keep in mind that if you purchase an airplane with average or worse condition paint and interior, those items are going to continue to deteriorate during your period of ownership. When you go to sell, your potential buyers are going to be looking at fair to poor paint and interior. If they are knowledgeable, they are not going to pay you what you probably want for the plane. If you don’t maintain the airplane’s condition, you can’t very well expect to get out of it what you put into it.

What irks me are the guys who list an airplane that has a run out or near TBO engine, the original but now faded and chipped paint job and a worn interior. They and all the former owners used up the airplane but didn’t want to spend their money fixing up the airplane. The plane is now essentially worthless but they still want an idiot buyer to come along and give them good money for the airplane.

Do the math. A good, quality engine job is probably closer to $25k and up. To do it right you need to do the complete job like pulling the engine mount and shipping it to a facility that is equipped to check it for internal rust and cracks along with repairing it. Remember, it has been supporting the engine for probably fifty years in addition to being subjected to g forces, heat and vibration. Some guys won’t do that because, well, it might cost them a little bit more. Of course, if the mount fails in flight, I wonder what that would cost?

A quality paint job is probably closer to $12k these days and a quality interior can run $8k to $10k. Of course, some guys try to do things on the cheap and there is nothing wrong with that unless it looks cheap. A knowledgeable buyer will look at a strange, weird or homemade paint job and walk away. He knows better. 

Now you can add avionics to my Dad’s list of big bills. Vintage avionics continue to decline in value as state of the art is a big box WAAS GPS NAV COM. Here again you can get mislead by the acquisition cost of the unit without considering the installation costs and related incidentals.

For example, I looked into upgrading to a big box unit. In my case, I would also need to acquire a new switch panel and a new VOR head as mine would not properly interface with the new technology. That would add a little bit to my bill right there, right? Of course, the big box would eliminate the need for my ADF so the ADF, it’s indicator, antennas and wiring would all need to be removed along with my separate 3LMB which would be included in the new switch panel.

Now my instrument panel is all screwed up and now you can add that to the bill. It just goes on and on....

I decided to stick with my vintage avionics which all works, by the way. That is another thing you’ll find when shopping for a plane. This radio doesn’t work, this is broken, this isn’t quite right and nobody made any effort to get them fixed and working properly. That would cost money.

Take your time and learn all you can about airplanes. Don’t get discouraged. Be patient and remember this. I have twenty one years of aircraft ownership experience. It is expensive but a very rewarding experience. I wouldn’t have missed it for anything.

[tigers2007]

Listen to these folks above. I bought my ‘64 D model which is same as C with the O-360-A1D carbureted 180HP that had about 2150 SMOH on the books (original motor on its second O/H). Was flight-club operated and flown at least once every 2-3 weeks for almost its entire life. Motor runs great and oil usage is under control. Good compressions. Fly it until it tells you it’s time to get serious. Watch closely for signs and symptoms.

I’ve got fifty hours on mine so far for owning it 14 months. I have no plans to prophylacticly O/H the motor; but I do have a fund building to handle the $25+k cost. Poplar Grove quoted me $21.4k including case repairs. New harness, o/h mags and carb. So add another XX for hoses and mounts and labour etc and a little more for a prop IRAN.


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[carusoam]

18 hours ago, TheDyood said:

...I don't have to study anymore...

When did this become an option?  

Didn’t somebody tell you... you have a license to learn...?

It takes a while to get all the weather info and apps, performance numbers, and AF/D details all worked out...

Studying is the minimum requirement to stay where you are.   No studying, results in negative progress...

I started with an M20C, just to find out if GA was going to work for me...

It worked.  I’m still studying... 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[carusoam]

Wait until somebody gives you spelling lessons for something Siri changed...

So you are looking at the B - G range...

They are generally in a row, from the lowest capital to the highest capital required to purchase....

Some pilots appreciate the fuel injection. M20E

Some pilots appreciate the added space in the back seats. M20G

Some pilots appreciate the simplicity and price of an M20B.

Some pilots appreciate getting many upgrades all at once. FI and space... M20F.

Some pilots want to get their feet wet first.  M20C/D.

Other pilots can look way ahead and know where they want to be 10 years from now.  M20J, K, R, U, TN.

Get onto the IR training. This will help with developing what you want to have in the panel. Radios that work, GPS, ADSB, Weather, AP...

Simple price outline... the rule of 10amus...

If a baseline M20B were to cost 20amu...

• Add 10amu for adding modernization...  M20C
• Add 10amu for extra space... M20G
• add 10amu for FI...  M20E
• If you got FI and extra space all at once, that is an M20F.
• Add 10amu For adding Instruments and radios...
• Add 10amu more you have entered the low end of the M20J market. Not a great place to start.
• Add 10amu on top of this will keep you off the bottom rung of the J ladder.
• Add 10amu for a turbo system. M20K.
• 10 to 100amu more, Long bodies are your destination... 

 

Fun stuff lies ahead...

Best regards,

-a-