Dynon Certified thread

[toto]

12 hours ago, JRam said:

If this thing works with a GTN 750 (and all my Garmin radios and xponder) and my current AP, this looks like a real option to replace my primary instruments and engine monitoring instead of the 500TXi for a much cheaper price...am I wrong here? Isn't the SkyView the CB version of the 500TXi? What am I missing here?

I think you'll have very limited integration with a Garmin transponder or navigator. I'm in the same boat, and basically waiting to see whether Garmin decides to compete with a G3X product against the Dynon product. If the HDX were available today I'd buy it. But if the G3X and the HDX were both available today, I'd buy the G3X in a heartbeat and I wouldn't think twice. I'd much rather have a fully integrated system, but it's really hard for me to imagine spending TXi money just to avoid a couple of extra button pushes. 

[ArtVandelay]

Dynon is a non starter for me, I simply don’t have any rs-232 ports available on the gps.

[Yetti]

8 hours ago, toto said:

I think you'll have very limited integration with a Garmin transponder or navigator. I'm in the same boat, and basically waiting to see whether Garmin decides to compete with a G3X product against the Dynon product. If the HDX were available today I'd buy it. But if the G3X and the HDX were both available today, I'd buy the G3X in a heartbeat and I wouldn't think twice. I'd much rather have a fully integrated system, but it's really hard for me to imagine spending TXi money just to avoid a couple of extra button pushes. 

So it looks like it's an integration/feature list.  The TXi looks like they separate out engine monitor and nav/primary flight display.   It's $16K + $12K to get engine and PFD with the TXI.     It $5K + $800 + $600 +$600  for engine and PFD display with Skyview

There is an elephant in the room in that the Skyview GPS 2020 is only ADSB certified and not IFR approach certified.   So you still need an IFR approach certified NAV unit.

 

Edited August 25, 2018 by Yetti

[David Lloyd]

11 hours ago, ShuRugal said:

Eh, wiring diagrams and D-sub connectors are not exactly rocket surgery.  Any A&P that can't read a wiring diagram is an A&P I won't be trusting my life with.

It isn't. However there is a lot more to it than a couple wires.  The D-sub connectors and computer like cables connect much of the Dynon parts to each other.  The main wiring harness for the displays has a 37 pin connector at on end and the other end goes to power, a/p disconnect, audio panel, ground, serial ports on transponder, gps antenna, etc.  When connecting Dynon to an audio panel or nav radio, that's where it gets tricky. Garmin shares their installation guides and wiring diagrams with their dealers, not you.  A whole bunch of connections need to be configured after everything is connected. Not difficult but must be figured out and done.  The Dynon install guide is now 571 pages, it can be downloaded from their website.  I've looked at and read pretty much every page.  Several times. I would not want to pay a first time installer, a really sharp A&P $75 an hour to read through that.

I'll go back and read the Dynon announcement.  When they said we could have a trusted shop named on the STC as being responsible for installation, surely they meant an avionics shop, someone accustomed to interconnecting various brands of equipment, someone with the manuals available, someone that's been there, done that.

Sure, anyone can do the install given enough time.  I've done it. Twice.  Oh, the user guide is also on their site.  It is an easier read at only 256 pages.

[ShuRugal]

It isn't. However there is a lot more to it than a couple wires.  The D-sub connectors and computer like cables connect much of the Dynon parts to each other.  The main wiring harness for the displays has a 37 pin connector at on end and the other end goes to power, a/p disconnect, audio panel, ground, serial ports on transponder, gps antenna, etc.  When connecting Dynon to an audio panel or nav radio, that's where it gets tricky. Garmin shares their installation guides and wiring diagrams with their dealers, not you.  A whole bunch of connections need to be configured after everything is connected. Not difficult but must be figured out and done.  The Dynon install guide is now 571 pages, it can be downloaded from their website.  I've looked at and read pretty much every page.  Several times. I would not want to pay a first time installer, a really sharp A&P $75 an hour to read through that.
I'll go back and read the Dynon announcement.  When they said we could have a trusted shop named on the STC as being responsible for installation, surely they meant an avionics shop, someone accustomed to interconnecting various brands of equipment, someone with the manuals available, someone that's been there, done that.
Sure, anyone can do the install given enough time.  I've done it. Twice.  Oh, the user guide is also on their site.  It is an easier read at only 256 pages.

Are the Garmin manuals really that hard to get? I've got a copy of the install manual for every piece of Garmin hardware in my bird, complete with connector pinouts (430, 340, 327).

And if an A&P told me he was going to charge me for the time it took to read the install manual, I'd find another A&P to do the work.



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[Yetti]

found it " At the time of purchase, the owner must nominate a qualified installer – either an A&P/IA or an avionics repair station – who will perform the installation. That installer will be specifically identified on the STC Permission Statement. The aircraft owner will contract directly with the installer for all labor related to the installation, including fabrication and finishing of the new instrument panel. "

Most IAs can run wires and do pin outs of schematics.  Many like mine prefer not to do it because they are better mechanics than lectricians.   Also with all this new stuff we are moving more into computers and Information Technology (although it is more 1990s computers) world than the world of A&P.

I've read the Skyview install manual once or twice and it pretty well laid out with it being very modular.

Edited August 25, 2018 by Yetti

[ArtVandelay]

The problem is what happens if there is a problem. A pin gets bent, bad CB, bad ground, etc can be tough to figure out unless you have lots of experience. I don’t blame Dynon for wanting certified installers, getting calls from some yahoo that can’t read schematic will just drive up costs and lower customer satisfaction.

[mike_elliott]

24 minutes ago, ShuRugal said:

And if an A&P told me he was going to charge me for the time it took to read the install manual, I'd find another A&P to do the work

You might be hard pressed to find an A&P then. If an A&P is going to spend a day in your benevolence to properly prepare to do a task that you ask him to do it would be only fair to pay him for that work in your behalf. Now if he spends a day looking around his shop to find a screwdriver to do the task, that is different. If you want to find someone who doesn't have to prep to do the task, IE a Dynon authorized installation shope, then expect to pay more for this higher skill set, and be prepared for additional repositioning costs. It is not a requirement for the A&P ticket to know how to wire every new wizbang thing that comes along. It is a requirement he has prior experience to complete a task unsupervised. To maintain quality, a level of knowledge, and dealer margins is why Garmin requires installation by authorized dealers. Their dealer authorization requirements and territory protection might be in question, but not their motives for the installation policies. 

[mike_elliott]

33 minutes ago, ShuRugal said:

 

 

Oh, stow the bullshit. The shop gets a very clear benefit from learning how to install the panel: they got the ability to install that panel in as many planes as they want. I'm not directly funding the business expansion of his shop.

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You are the one requesting him to expand his shop. This is about you, not him. The answer is simple then if you are so tight as to not pay for someone to work in your benevolence, Do it yourself, find a sucker IA who would sign off your work guaranteeing it with their ticket. Good luck, I wish you well.

 

[Yetti]

3 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

The answer is simple then if you are so tight as to not pay for someone to work in your benevolence, Do it yourself, find a sucker IA who would sign off your work guaranteeing it with their ticket. Good luck, I wish you well.

 

Actually that is what Dynon is pretty much setting up.   If the installer has a good relationship with the IA then the IA will be willing to sign off on the quality of work that the installer is accomplishing. No different than a owner assist annual.

[ShuRugal]

You are the one requesting him to expand his shop. This is about you, not him. The answer is simple then if you are so tight as to not pay for someone to work in your benevolence, Do it yourself, find a sucker IA who would sign off your work guaranteeing it with their ticket. Good luck, I wish you well.
 

The amount of condescension dripping from this post is unreal. I've never said I'm not willing to pay for work - I just don't consider reading the install manual, by itself, to be "work". When I apply for a job that lists a new technology as something I need to have knowledge of for the position, I don't tell the recruiter that they should pay me to learn it before I'm hired. This is no different.

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[mike_elliott]

1 minute ago, ShuRugal said:

 

 

The amount of condescension dripping from this post is unreal. I've never said I'm not willing to pay for work - I just don't consider reading the install manual, by itself, to be "work". When I apply for a job that lists a new technology as something I need to have knowledge of for the position, I don't tell the recruiter that they should pay me to learn it before I'm hired. This is no different.

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I dont mean to be condescending, but my understanding was the A&P isn't applying for this work here, you are asking him to do this for you. Now if he were wanting to be a Dynon installation center and use you as his learning install I get your point and couldnt agree more with you. If you are wanting this  A&P to do this for you at your request solely, you should pay him. No different than if I asked you to set up DMARC and SPF MX records, prioritize SIP traffic and change my net to IPV6 if you are a good HTML coder vs a network engineer. 

If he comes to you and says "ShuRagal, I sure would like to put in your Dynon. I need to figure out this stuff anyway" you are 100% correct in your posture. I personally believe mechanics dont have a hobbs meter on them only when they have a wrench in their hands for their work when they do things for me.

[MIm20c]

I’m with Mike on this one.  Expecting a IA, who ideally you're building a relationship with, should NOT be expected to waste their time to learn a new system like this. If you want to pay or wait for the experience great.  

[ShuRugal]

I dont mean to be condescending, but my understanding was the A&P isn't applying for this work here, you are asking him to do this for you. Now if he were wanting to be a Dynon installation center and use you as his learning install I get your point and couldnt agree more with you. If you are wanting this  A&P to do this for you at your request solely, you should pay him. No different than if I asked you to set up DMARC and SPF MX records, prioritize SIP traffic and change my net to IPV6 if you are a good HTML coder vs a network engineer. 
If he comes to you and says "ShuRagal, I sure would like to put in your Dynon. I need to figure out this stuff anyway" you are 100% correct in your posture. I personally believe mechanics dont have a hobbs meter on them only when they have a wrench in their hands for their work when they do things for me.

That makes sense, but to flip this around, I'm also not saying I would force him to do it my way. I said right at the start that I would find another one who would do it that way - there will be one.

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[David Lloyd]

Sorry for sounding condescending. My spouse also complains. I will try to stick to facts rather than opinions.

 

[Mooneymite]

This thread was hot because a lot of us Mooney owners are looking forward to up-dating our panels without re-financing our homes.

As the thread morphed, the installed prices and the expectations started a meteoric climb.

Sad-to-say, but $22,000 + instalation in a plane that will probably wholesale for $30-35K when I die does not compute.  I can fly my old steam gauges/GNC 430 forever with a $2000 ADS-B up-grade virtually anywhere I need to go.  I suspect quite a few legacy Mooney owners have also done the math.  Reality check?

[Yetti]

If you look at if from a TCO over the years it starts to make more sense.  Replace two steam gauges and you have paid for half the Screen ($4K)   Have one of your Brittian parts go south and then you have paid for the rest of the other half of the screen.

 

[Mooneymite]

42 minutes ago, Yetti said:

If you look at if from a TCO over the years it starts to make more sense.  Replace two steam gauges and you have paid for half the Screen ($4K)   Have one of your Brittian parts go south and then you have paid for the rest of the other half of the screen.

In 20 years I haven't replaced any of my steam gauges, though I've had some overhauled.  The cost has been minimal.  How long will they continue?  Who knows?  How long will I keep flying?

[aviatoreb]

53 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

This thread was hot because a lot of us Mooney owners are looking forward to up-dating our panels without re-financing our homes.

As the thread morphed, the installed prices and the expectations started a meteoric climb.

Sad-to-say, but $22,000 + instalation in a plane that will probably wholesale for $30-35K when I die does not compute.  I can fly my old steam gauges/GNC 430 forever with a $2000 ADS-B up-grade virtually anywhere I need to go.  I suspect quite a few legacy Mooney owners have also done the math.  Reality check?

Keeping a plane at all never makes economic sense or math sense.  Take it from me I know lots of Math and nonetheless I have a plane but... no sense.

[Mooneymite]

2 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Keeping a plane at all never makes economic sense or math sense.  Take it from me I know lots of Math and nonetheless I have a plane but... no sense.

Economically, having a wife doesn't make much sense either.  Happily, there's more to life than math.  

If I had to scrap my plane today for zero residual value, I'd feel I'd gotten enough value from it.  I'd do it again.  However, $22K + install might up-set the equation!

[MIm20c]

3 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Economically, having a wife doesn't make much sense either.  Happily, there's more to life than math.  

If I had to scrap my plane today for zero residual value, I'd feel I'd gotten enough value from it.  I'd do it again.  However, $22K + install might up-set the equation!

It’s a good value for all you get but I can’t imagine putting one in unless you have a ifr waas approved gps unit to talk to it. That with installation will break into the 40’s.

[NJMac]

I can’t see doing a Dynon upgrade in my E. But I’d like to be in a K or M in 5 years and will likely consider some dated panels with this upgrade in mind.


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[Steve Dawson]

For me installing the Dynon will have to be a personal decision depending on pireps after the first installation, the cost for the actual installation, my need/want situation as well as what aircraft I have at the time. The alternatives to a panel with so many features now stands at only the Garmin TXi with the Dynon pricing considerably less. Here's my rendition of what a panel would look like with the Dynon. Plenty of room for the standby EFIS and Dynon's autopilot control. 

 

[Dave Morris]

From another forum (I think it was Piper), "the more you need to change out, the more the Dynon makes sense". Brittain is no more. So anyone with a Brittain vacuum-based autopilot is now on borrowed time. If you also need ADS-B and don't already have a WAAS navigator, that's another datapoint. If you want to remove your entire vacuum system for weight savings, there's another datapoint. So, having replaced all your flight instruments, most of your radios, all your fuel computing and engine monitoring with what the industry might call a "single point of failure", how risky is that? I guess it depends on how much you trust Dynon. They've been building stuff for experimentals for a long, long time. Maybe looking at failures in the experimental community would give us a clue.

 

[khedrei]

23 hours ago, Dave N1960 said:

From another forum (I think it was Piper), "the more you need to change out, the more the Dynon makes sense". Brittain is no more. So anyone with a Brittain vacuum-based autopilot is now on borrowed time. If you also need ADS-B and don't already have a WAAS navigator, that's another datapoint. If you want to remove your entire vacuum system for weight savings, there's another datapoint. So, having replaced all your flight instruments, most of your radios, all your fuel computing and engine monitoring with what the industry might call a "single point of failure", how risky is that? I guess it depends on how much you trust Dynon. They've been building stuff for experimentals for a long, long time. Maybe looking at failures in the experimental community would give us a clue.

 

That's sort of how I look at it.  I have a 430W.  Everything else I have is old.  My single axis Centry A/P rarely works and I wouldn't trust it in IMC even when it did happen to work.  I will need a 2020 xponder.  Friends have told me by the sound of my Turn Co-ordinator that it might have a year left.  I also only have a traditional DG and would like an HSI.  With the dual G5 and GFC500 autopilot (if it ever comes out) I am in for 12-13k plus install.  Add in 8k for a GTX-345 xponder.  Plus my second com is old and although it works fine, the display doesn't always...  I could also use a new audio panel.

 

Even if lets say I do everything and have to spend 30-40k to bring the panel completely into todays age it seems worth it to me considering just adding an auto pilot and transponder would run me in the low 20's.  Why not just do everything.  If not, what it my AI goes, or my vacuum pump goes.  2k here, 2k there.  Before I realize it I am spending the same money to keep my plane working but with mostly old technology.  If Garmin had their autopilot available today it might be a different conversation and I might be considering different options.

 

To me, Dynon is making more and more sense.  Especially since they allowed a shop of my choice to install it.