Ramp and Other Fees AGAIN!

[aviatoreb]

Just now, Cyril Gibb said:

Yup, Quebec City (CYQB).  I landed to wait out a thunderstorm across the river at my destination, St. Jean Chrysostome (CSG5), rather than circle for 10 minutes.  I wasn't even going to go into the FBO.  One of the line guys walked to the plane and told me I owed a ramp fee of 60 something plus tax.  A few weeks later I got a landing fee bill for $28.

We tied down at Republic (KFRG) a couple of months ago.   Nice airport and very convenient visiting NYC.  U.S. customs fee of $150.00 that they don't tell you when you're calling to make an arrival appt.  Luckily, they didn't have a slot available so we did customs in Buffalo.

KFRG was another example of a post-post-visit surprise.  I got a landing fee bill in the mail for US$2.50.  It cost them $1.36 in postage to send it to me.  Similar to the US$8.00 customs ramp fee in Erie I received a few months after stopping there.. I wish they would tell me so I could pay it while I'm there.

 

Huh!  Thanks for the warning - we were in Quebec City - by car - this weekend - and I was thinking gee - next time I should fly.

So does CSG5 have reasonable fees?

[Cyril Gibb]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

Huh!  Thanks for the warning - we were in Quebec City - by car - this weekend - and I was thinking gee - next time I should fly.

So does CSG5 have reasonable fees?

Yes, no landing fee and I think it was around 10 bucks a night tie down.  Pocket change in US$.  It's a tiny skydiving school airport, so ya gotta dodge the parachutes constantly raining down.  Make SURE you're in Unicom contact to avoid picking up a hood ornament.  We travel by bicycle, so I don't know how convenient a cab or Uber would be.

[FloridaMan]

7 hours ago, Tom said:

 

I explained in another post (in a similar thread) discussing the problem I had trying to open a small ~FBO.  The reality is de facto exclusive rights are given by local airport authorities all over the country.  This has been the norm for years, perhaps decades in some areas.  FAA knows it.  AOPA knows it.  When fees were more "reasonable" no one noticed or cared.  After the MegaFBOs started turning themselves into palaces, and jacked up their prices to pay for the marble, the little guys finally noticed and are fed up.

 

In the best case scenario, where competition could be allowed, I described the big problem for the municipality earlier in this thread.  The other big problem for the airport authorities is the guarantee of lawsuits from MegaFBO if/when the municipalities start allowing competition, stealing the MegaFBO's low-hanging fruit/profits from the piston crowd.  Of course the MegaFBO's argument would be "the city guaranteed us a monopoly and they're taking it away" but the two municipalities I tried to work with didn't want to mess with the status quo precisely for this reason.

 

The above is from the horses mouths to me.

I was at PBI some time before the elections and the conversation of Trump came up while I was down there. There was a story about him getting incredibly pissed off at the FBOs for charging the ramp fee for his 757 and not wanting to offer a fuel discount on their significantly overpriced fuel. I would not be surprised in the least if the FBOs aren't on his backlog to enter his crosshairs. 

[yvesg]

1 hour ago, Cyril Gibb said:

Yes, no landing fee and I think it was around 10 bucks a night tie down.  Pocket change in US$.  It's a tiny skydiving school airport, so ya gotta dodge the parachutes constantly raining down.  Make SURE you're in Unicom contact to avoid picking up a hood ornament.  We travel by bicycle, so I don't know how convenient a cab or Uber would be.

CNV9 (Neuville) is also an option for Quebec city. I have not used it yet... it is been years since I flew to Quebec city. Last time was 5-6 years ago to see a Madonna's show. That is when I realized that standing-up for hours in a crowd not fitting (squeezed like sardines) is not something I like at my age.

Yves

[Simon]

On 6/19/2017 at 9:47 AM, DonMuncy said:

Suppose you taxi in and pick up passengers and take off; but your passengers have been hanging around the FBO for two hours, eating their cookies, drinking their coffee and bugging their receptionist for information. There are so many variations of circumstances, it would be very difficult to set up guidelines to fairly cover all circumstances. I agree that excessive fees are a real problem, but I don't know a very good answer for keeping FBOs alive in a tough business, and treating plane owners fairly. 

 

Maybe that's the answer.

Tell your pick up passengers that it's mandatory to eat as many cookies as possible and drink all the ice tea.

I have to say, Signature does offer an impressive variety of snacks.  The snack area is bigger than reception usually.

[HRM]

Just now, Simon said:

Tell your pick up passengers that it's mandatory to eat as many cookies as possible and drink all the ice tea.

...and then get in a Mooney for a few hours? 

[chrisk]

I'm actually a big fan of the "City FBO".   Typically a small building with a unicom combination lock on the door, a slot to pay for overnight parking, and the managers phone number posted.   I simply get to park my plane, where no one will move it and mess up the the nose truss.  I can go inside to use the bathrooms, call for a weather briefing, and use the computer.   If I want fuel, I can pump it myself.   Some even have a courtesy car you can sign out on the honor system.  Typically an old city car which has seen far better days.

I wish there were more of these. 

 

[Skates97]

On 6/19/2017 at 0:56 PM, peevee said:

I'm at 36u today. They get 6.35 a gallon of gas plus a 25 or 50 dollar a night tie down. No wonder comments are off on airnav

Should have gone a little further north to Logan. I was there Sunday to drop my son off. Pulled off the taxiway and was being directed to parking by the FBO Leading Edge Aviation. He chocked the wheels and put out a "small" red carpet and offered cold drinks from a cooler. I told him I was just dropping off my son. After my son left with his friends family I went in and used their restroom. I talked with the gentleman for a couple minutes while looking at their pricing board to see if it listed fees. (I had an awkward feeling wondering if he was going to ask for a fee as he was standing at the computer behind the counter.) I finally said "So do I owe you anything?" His response was "No, we just try to treat everyone right. Are you sure you don't want a cold water to take with you?" He followed me back out to the plane to get the chocks, carpet, and cooler that he had left by the step and wished me a safe flight.

Great service, no fees.

[Alain B]

38 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

Should have gone a little further north to Logan. I was there Sunday to drop my son off. Pulled off the taxiway and was being directed to parking by the FBO Leading Edge Aviation. He chocked the wheels and put out a "small" red carpet and offered cold drinks from a cooler. I told him I was just dropping off my son. After my son left with his friends family I went in and used their restroom. I talked with the gentleman for a couple minutes while looking at their pricing board to see if it listed fees. (I had an awkward feeling wondering if he was going to ask for a fee as he was standing at the computer behind the counter.) I finally said "So do I owe you anything?" His response was "No, we just try to treat everyone right. Are you sure you don't want a cold water to take with you?" He followed me back out to the plane to get the chocks, carpet, and cooler that he had left by the step and wished me a safe flight.

Great service, no fees.

 

38 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

Should have gone a little further north to Logan. I was there Sunday to drop my son off. Pulled off the taxiway and was being directed to parking by the FBO Leading Edge Aviation. He chocked the wheels and put out a "small" red carpet and offered cold drinks from a cooler. I told him I was just dropping off my son. After my son left with his friends family I went in and used their restroom. I talked with the gentleman for a couple minutes while looking at their pricing board to see if it listed fees. (I had an awkward feeling wondering if he was going to ask for a fee as he was standing at the computer behind the counter.) I finally said "So do I owe you anything?" His response was "No, we just try to treat everyone right. Are you sure you don't want a cold water to take with you?" He followed me back out to the plane to get the chocks, carpet, and cooler that he had left by the step and wished me a safe flight.

Great service, no fees.

You better send this guy a Xmas card ! 

[steingar]

50 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

oh listen to you lot, a few bucks here and there.   we have had landing fees for years, you just get used to them. if i had access to the FBOs that you guys have for the low prices you have i would be smiling SO much.  as it is us poor europeans just have to suffer the social state and pay for all the free health care, oh wait, you have to pay for that as well.   

There are reasons why we had that little revolution...

[mooneyflyer]

Would a simple website with AIRPORT_ID, FBO_NAME, FEE be useful?  Such a website would be trivial to put together and be fed by actual pilots based on actual fees... and updated/revised by actual pilots?

[FloridaMan]

 

49 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

Should have gone a little further north to Logan. I was there Sunday to drop my son off. Pulled off the taxiway and was being directed to parking by the FBO Leading Edge Aviation. He chocked the wheels and put out a "small" red carpet and offered cold drinks from a cooler. I told him I was just dropping off my son. After my son left with his friends family I went in and used their restroom. I talked with the gentleman for a couple minutes while looking at their pricing board to see if it listed fees. (I had an awkward feeling wondering if he was going to ask for a fee as he was standing at the computer behind the counter.) I finally said "So do I owe you anything?" His response was "No, we just try to treat everyone right. Are you sure you don't want a cold water to take with you?" He followed me back out to the plane to get the chocks, carpet, and cooler that he had left by the step and wished me a safe flight.

Great service, no fees.

I work with a flight department that operates a number of aircraft including a G550 and a G650. FBO line training 101 should include that the guy who shows up in the old airplane may make the decision on where to take on 40,000lbs of fuel in the jet. In nearly 1000 hours of flying my Mooney, I have pulled the asshole card only once and that was at Landmark at KRDU. They were incredibly rude to myself and my passenger and damaged my nose truss slightly on top of that. I called our flight department and they instructed me to inform them that we also operate G550 (the 650 hadn't been delivered yet), the tail and serial number, and that we will no longer be using their services, which I did. 

I have noticed that the professionalism of the FBOs varies. I was astonished at how incredible the folks were at Signature at KMIA when I flew into there; I had prepared myself to keep cool. While there were some fees, as you would expect, they treated me as well in my 50 year old Mooney as I have been treated on any cabin class business jet arrival. 

The psychological aspects of fees are weird too. I try to keep some $10 bills around so I can tip the line guy on arrival. I figure the extra few bucks influences them to care a bit more for your bird, but the charging of a fee by the FBO, even though it's usually about the same, is an annoyance in principle. 

[FloridaMan]

5 minutes ago, mooneyflyer said:

Would a simple website with AIRPORT_ID, FBO_NAME, FEE be useful?  Such a website would be trivial to put together and be fed by actual pilots based on actual fees... and updated/revised by actual pilots?

I have parsed and subscribe to the raw aviation databases and have all of the airport information already available. I could easily throw something like this together in an afternoon for reporting this, or I can provide an API or data dump to anyone else who might wish to do so. 

[peevee]

So, to update my previous rant about Heber City 36u they waived one night parking with fuel purchase. I took on 28 gallons at 6.35 a gallon and paid 25 to park and 4 to land for a total of approx $206. Waiving one night of parking knocked the fuel cost down enough that it wasn't worth jumping 60 miles west to get fuel at 2 bucks cheaper. I didn't need much to get home.

 

Oh? Don't mind if I do! Except airnav comments are disabled!

[DonMuncy]

3 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Should have gone a little further north to Logan. I was there Sunday to drop my son off. Pulled off the taxiway and was being directed to parking by the FBO Leading Edge Aviation. He chocked the wheels and put out a "small" red carpet and offered cold drinks from a cooler. I told him I was just dropping off my son. After my son left with his friends family I went in and used their restroom. I talked with the gentleman for a couple minutes while looking at their pricing board to see if it listed fees. (I had an awkward feeling wondering if he was going to ask for a fee as he was standing at the computer behind the counter.) I finally said "So do I owe you anything?" His response was "No, we just try to treat everyone right. Are you sure you don't want a cold water to take with you?" He followed me back out to the plane to get the chocks, carpet, and cooler that he had left by the step and wished me a safe flight.

Great service, no fees.

That is the time for a nice tip.

[cliffy]

With any web site set up how would hacking be prevented?

I would think maintenance of this and other "injuries" would be time consuming?

[FBCK]

Ottawa international, $120 for a tie down, that actually didn't have a tie down. Landed on a cross country and bad weather, almost hurricane winds, asked how much for an overnight in the hangar, $600. Called them later to put my cover on and when I got there the next day, the cover was half on and slapping the side of the plane. 

[bradp]

I love calling ahead to the big FBOs asking that they not tow my plane and I'm happy to walk from wherever they would like to put me for the night.   It's like I'm an alien from outer space. 

 

There was a guy on beechtalk that put together a database that had end users submit fee updates. I think the project fizzled.  Last time I checked I got a 404 error.  The issue is it's not as robust  if our relatively small mooney group enters fees for the however many airports we frequent.  It's very robust if tens of thousands of users enter information across the country.  Seems like a low hanging tech project for AOPA or foreflight (or some combination) to be able to create a large and up to date database. 

[MB65E]

Foreflight's FBO comment section is helpful. I only use airnav to check their little clock that tells current time vs. UTC when my brain gets confused. Other than that Foreflight is worth every penny to me!!

-Matt

[Hector]

I posted fees in Foreflight and after a day or two they show up. I don't rant about the fee, just state the facts so the next guy can determine if the fee is appropriate or not.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[chrisk]

I'm thinking of a Colorado trip over the 4th.  I just called the FBO at Montrose (KMTJ).   A one night stay with my Mooney would be $72.   A $40 facility fee, $20 for parking, and $12 for security.  I'll go elsewhere!   --Now, how to make trouble for Atlantic.  Maybe a letter to the city explaining why my tourist dollars will not be spent there.  Some how, I suspect that will fall on deaf ears.

[FoxMike]

chrisk,

A letter would be a good idea but unlikely to do much damage.  I would suggest you address it to the Montrose County Airport Manager, 2100 Airport Road, Montrose, Co, 81401.

Edited June 24, 2017 by FoxMike
misspelling

[Hank]

12 minutes ago, FoxMike said:

chrisk,

A letter would be a good idea but unlikely to do much damage.  I would suggest you address it to the Montrose County Airport Manager, 2100 Airport Road, Montrose, Co, 81401.

And cc the Chamber of Commerce, with reference to how many days you plan to be there.

[cliffy]

Will someone PLEASE tell me what the H&*% a "Security Fee" is supposed to cover?

 It's just stick it to'um because there is no other way to access the city.

I can't tell you how much this c&^% ticks me off and I run an airport!

This stuff is rapidly going out if control!

AOPA! Get off your butt and do something effective rather than "write a letter" or collect data!

[peevee]

1 hour ago, chrisk said:

I'm thinking of a Colorado trip over the 4th.  I just called the FBO at Montrose (KMTJ).   A one night stay with my Mooney would be $72.   A $40 facility fee, $20 for parking, and $12 for security.  I'll go elsewhere!   --Now, how to make trouble for Atlantic.  Maybe a letter to the city explaining why my tourist dollars will not be spent there.  Some how, I suspect that will fall on deaf ears.

Most of Colorado ski country is about like that.