Should I buy a Mooney (for business travel)?

[Tater]

Regarding time: If you work like me, and it sounds like you do, you would be working on the airline while travelling enroute, similar to the drive. I tend to make quite a few phone calls in the vehicle  while driving ( bluetooth headset ). I sometimes even toy with the idea of getting an assistant just to drive me around and increase the amount of time I can respond to calls/emails/texts/issues, etc.
None of this is really practical when flying yourself. I tried the bluetooth in the Bose A20 for calls, but cell coverage is typically poor at altitude and non-existent in many of the areas I travel over.
Ultimately, I do choose the Mooney for the time savings from the security at the airports and that I can depart on MY schedule, rather than lingering around the airport for hours waiting for the return flight. All of this ultimately leads me to be home at a reasonable hour or not staying over night so I can spend more time with my family ( and on Mooneyspace  )

I do take care of a lot of phone calls while driving so that is a good point about not doing the same while flying.

Getting home at reasonable hours and having dinner with the family, that is what I'm wanting. Hearing that the plane actually delivers that is what I'm looking for.

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[Tater]

Hi there..
Ive flown much of your potential route...basically out of Spokane you will be dealing with some icing conditions in the winter,but you already know that.If you are flying into regional airports with fbo s than you prob can take advantage of crew cars for 4 hrs or less...so no rental car but you have to buy fuel.Figure on a two year training investment to get you thru the IR and enoughexperoence under your belt to safely make the trips.

How much can you rely on crew cars being available? Is it a coin toss or pretty close to guaranteed?

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[Robert C.]

23 hours ago, SantosDumont said:

3. Training in a Mooney.

I would never want to do to my Mooney what I did to the poor Cherokee 140, Cessna 150, 172, and 175B that I trained in.  Also I would recommend training in just one plane if you can.  While you can get insurance to fly a Mooney as a student, it's going to be expensive and you'll need to find a CFI that is willing to give you the high performance and complex endorsements.  I have 100 hrs in my M20F now and I think I'm starting to get OK at landings.

Don't worry about spending too much time on training.  Due to weather and other things it took me 90 hours before I passed my checkride.  Keep training until you are comfortable.  Once you get your PPL then it's time to start looking at planes.

If this is a business proposition, then time=money. The traditional training route means you'll be at least 2 years before you can safely start relying on your own flying skills and judgment to have a good dispatch rate. You can cut this a bit by taking along an instructor as suggested in earlier responses. However, I have a better (I hope  ) suggestion.

1) Sign up for an "accelerated" program. It's quite easy to get that PPL in 14 days (hectic, drinking from a fire hose style training).

2) So now you are a 50hr PPL. Rent for a year, and make sure you fly another 100hrs during that year. Now you have a pretty good idea of what you are doing. On really nice days you can even use the rental plane for business trips without running too much risk

3) Buy your Mooney, sign up for a combined IFR and Transition training program. 10 days and you have 40hrs in your Mooney and the IR ticket. You'll never be as current as the day after getting that IR ticket after doing 10 days of approaches, holds, etc.

4) Start flying for business in earnest while you remember it all   

Good luck!

[201er]

5 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

So here's a guy with moneys to spend, he wants to spend it on aviation, he wants to ultimately own his own airplane...  And here is a bunch of airplane owners trying to talk him out of it.

No wonder GA is in trouble. Are you all the same bunch trying to shut down the airport in Santa Monica? Geeees.....

All I'll say is that flying is the best thing I've spent money on in many years... and I spend a fair amount of it. 

I don't think anyone doesn't want another aviation enthusiast to join in the hobby of flying. The problem comes with the reliability required for it to be strictly for business and whether or not it genuinely pays off when it comes to dollars and sense.

I try to make use of my plane for business at every opportunity. It is fun and often useful. However, as a hobby pilot, I am perfectly aware of the limitations and set backs. I fly for business because I enjoy it, not because I am under the delusion that it the most economic way of getting around. 

It takes a lot of flying and effort to keep the plane and pilot sound and proficient. When you factor in how much training, for how long, and for how much is required not onto to be rated but also to stay proficient in airplane, makes it not so viable a business proposition if the personal enjoyment factor isn't primary. Looking at this kind of airplane strictly from the purpose of business will probably be disappointing, over priced, not sufficiently reliable, too time consuming, and potentially dangerous.

[201er]

3 hours ago, Tater said:

How much can you rely on crew cars being available? Is it a coin toss or pretty close to guaranteed?

I can't speak for out where you are, but my experience around the country has been that:

-Towered airports are almost guaranteed to have crew or rental cars during business hours with a reservation

-Smaller, non towered airports are hit or miss. Some will have a fantastic arrangement of cars and services and some are a desolate dead beat hunk of pavement in the middle of nowhere.

 

Keep in mind that the cost of fuel at the kind of airport that has car rentals available is usually substantially higher than at the kind of airport that does not. And I don't mean like the difference between an Exxon and a generic gas station. I'm talking about $1-$4 per gallon more! And depending on the airport, they could easily find a reason to slap on another $10-$50 in non-waivable fees beyond the cost of fuel or fuel-waived fees.

The cost of flying to where you "have" to be can easily be 25-50% more than where you "want" to be. Those airports know you have to be there and they charge accordingly.

[zaitcev]

On 3/24/2017 at 1:56 PM, Tater said:

1. Will I actually save time - door to door including: pre-flight, getting into a rental car, etc. - flying vs. driving routes that are 100 to 300 miles away. My office is 5 minutes from my local field, most of my customers are within 15 minutes of an airport.

2. Flying about 4 hours a week, is $160/hr a reasonable number for an all in cost to operate an M20C (including interest on a $45,000 loan, hanger costs, engine reserves, etc., etc.

3. If I go ahead with purchasing a plane I plan to get both PPL and IR as soon as I can, within 6 months or less. How terrible an idea is it to buy an Mooney and do all of my training in it instead of renting (172s are the only local option) or buying a Cessna 150 and selling it a few months later after PPL is complete?

I only have experience with 1., and I heard a few things about 3., but 2. is something I'm in denial about. It costs what it costs. That said...

1. Yes for 255 nm and no for 85 nm. Remember that you have to get a rental at your destination.

2. (too many variables)

3. It's not a terrible idea. People do that, even these days. It used to be more common.

I knew one guy, Mike "Spanky" Galloway, who flew his Bonanza on business. He was based in Dallas and he sold pharmaceuticals. His area was the south, so he ranged from Vegas to Atlanta or so. So, it can work in certain circumstances. But I have a harder time imagining a CEO flying a light single when he has employees.

If I were flying for business, I would only start it when I could write off $20k a year or so, and just get a Cirrus with FIKI. If you're a CEO and you need to get negotiations carried out, then you don't want to arrive beaten up and squeezed like a lemon after 2 hours in an M20C. Let auto-pilot do the job. And make sure to consult your tax professional. This would be my ignorant opinion.

[gsengle]

Ahem, or a M20R with FIKI. You'll get there sooner...


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[thinwing]

Or a Bravo with Fiki...tall mountains between Spokane and anywhere in a 360 degree direction.

[carusoam]

From the top...

1) Being a small business owner and sales guy, takes a tremendous amount of responsibility and dedication.

2) Flying around the country IFR, takes a tremendous amount of responsibility and dedication.

3) A successful small business isn't usually built in a day.

4) A successful path to IFR Mooney flying isn't usually built in a day.

5) there is a time to be on the phone, and there is a time to put the phone down.

6) I see a lot of similarity between the two.  

7) I Started flying after I became a sales guy.

8) Some of my best sales experiences came while I had an M20C.

9) I have benefited by saying I can be there tomorrow or later today, if you would like.  And had the ability to go execute the promise.

10) I have also rented a car, and driven through the night, to get to a customer meeting when my commercial connection left me Stranded in Detroit and I needed to be in southern Indiana in the morning...  I got an 'A' for customer dedication on this one...  (machine sales guy)

11) It really helps to become familiar with everything that is involved.  The second time you have been to a particular airport vs. the first time you get there.  You know all the people, the services, what's available, and how to get what you need.  No different than driving to see a customer....

 

Tater,

1) what keeps you from starting the flying portion now?

2) what kind of business are you in?

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 26, 2017 by carusoam

[Tater]

Thanks for the good input.

It sounds like we are in similar businesses, my company designs and builds custom automation for factories; robotic stations, part inspection systems, etc.

What keeps me from flying right now? I want to make sure that I'm launching into something worthwhile before I start pouring money and time down the drain.

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[thinwing]

I just checked departures out of Spokane felts field...service to Seattle/Portland..that's it!Yikes if anyone could make use of gen aviation it is you!

[carusoam]

Start asking about preferred flight schools...

And types of flight training...

Read about the last two guys that have come through trying to finish their flight training while working at the same time.  One youngish guy, one mid life guy....(sorry Richard)  both with great writing skill...  both were successful getting their licenses.  One had a hard time selecting the proper tool for the job in the end.  Distracted by flashy lights and colored screens or something like that...

The nice part about some flight schools is you can get started and fit them into your schedule.  Some people like one flight instructor.  Some don't mind following a rigid syllabus.

If you only get part of the way into the program and then hit the brakes...  the only thing lost is your time and money spent up to that point.  It all goes into your log, resume when you have more time.

 

An example of a flight school I used for my instrument rating is... http://www.americanflyers.net/individual_training.htm

They had a handful of similar planes and a handful of similar instructors all with the same goal of getting you to the next level...  if one plane was down for service or out with another pilot, the next one was similar to the first one.... same with the instructors...

They had a lot of documenting to do.

As a businessman with a schedule to keep, this fit my lifestyle best...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 27, 2017 by carusoam

[bonal]

39 minutes ago, Tater said:

Thanks for the good input.

It sounds like we are in similar businesses, my company designs and builds custom automation for factories; robotic stations, part inspection systems, etc.

What keeps me from flying right now? I want to make sure that I'm launching into something worthwhile before I start pouring money and time down the drain.

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Unfortunately the only way to answer that question is to start flying and see if it fits your needs. As we all know there is no such thing as a free lunch. Even if you don't solve all your business travel requirements you may solve some of them and guess what worst case you find out you love to fly and have just discovered a new passion in your life. 

[rbridges]

I'm zipping past 3 pages of replies so it's probably a repeat. 

Its hard to justify, but it's nice to have. You can't always depend on it. Wind, fog, ice etc. can cancel a trip. You also have to plan the return trip. 

I live 15 minutes from my hangar. It's a wash on trips that are 1.5-2 hours because of preflight, loading and wiping down the plane. The difference for me is that I'd rather spend 2 hours preflighting and flying than sitting in traffic. I can fly 3 hours and feel pretty good.  I can't say the same about driving. Plus I've covered 2-3 times more distance whole flying. 

Im on vacation in Charleston, sc typing this. It was a 1.5 hr flight vs a 4+ car drive from home.  Sounds great but we originally planned to go to gatlinbirg but changed our minds when we saw the weather. 

A plane is like a hammer in your tool box. It definitely has its uses, but it doesn't work for every situation. If you love to fly and would want it anyway, I say get it. 

[whiskytango]

The main thing to keep in mind is that unlike a car, you can't assume with certainty that you will be able to fly your Mooney to a specific location on a specific day and time.  There are a number of things that have to be right, primarily weather-related, for a flight to be feasible, especially if you are a low-time pilot.  If you have a day or so of flexibility in your plans, flights can be accomplished.  If you absolutely have to be there, make that airline reservation that can be cancelled if the Mooney flights out and back become feasible.

[ArtVandelay]

Assuming you have a hangar, you can post flight the plane, check controls, oil level, fill fuel tanks, etc. That will cut down you preflight for next flight to a quick check of tires, fuel, and check for insects blockage in the various vent,tubes and you're done.

[Yetti]

They are tools and they have their uses.  I will say it was nice when I left the meeting was home by Ice cream time 8:30 with Mrs. Yetti     The other folks got stuck in a traffic jam on I-10 and did not get home till 11:30

Step one.  Find an AME and go get your medical.   By the time you are have enough money to afford to fly you are too old to pass the medical.... kind of rings true.... sadly

[jkhirsch]

Another thread full of haters and naysayers. My favorite.

[Yetti]

We could always do this:

When flying my aircraft for business should it be run LOP or ROP?

[rbridges]

On 3/26/2017 at 0:43 AM, gsengle said:

Ahem, or a M20R with FIKI. You'll get there sooner...


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I don't think mooney made anything past a C model. 

[Mooneymite]

2 hours ago, rbridges said:

I don't think mooney made anything past a C model. 

Definitely the financial "sweet spot" in the Mooney line up.

[bhilgy]

I'm late to the game here but I'll share my story in the hopes that it helps.  I don't think I'd do things differently unless I didn't do it at all! ;-)

I fly pretty much exclusively for business travel.  I started my journey 5 years ago at the age of 45 with the intent of using it for business travel.  I now fly my 1992 M20J 160-180 hrs per year and have over 500 hours in it coming up on 3 years.  I live in the Omaha NE area and fly to Chicago, Minneapolis, Des Moines, and Kansas City most of the time.  Weather knocks out every 4th-5th planned trip or I'd fly every week and exceed 200 hours easily.  My local (5 minutes from home) FBO provides me with heated hanger, fueling, and pull in pull out.  This saves me some time but it's running $300/month for the service.  If this wasn't available the time for a 250 mile drive wouldn't save me much.  Most of my trips are longer.  Here's what I learned along the way:

1)  You buy (and you definitely buy) ultimate flexibility and save time vs commercial air and driving

2)  You trade that time savings against an investment in furthering your flying education and planning.  Be a student of the game to stay safe!

3) You MUST have an attitude of "I don't have to be there" to be safe.  Don't fly or go early or leave late to avoid putting pressure on your trip.

4) Despite a mentor who gave me all the details involved in getting through the training it still took much more of an investment in time than I thought it would.  I kept my day job so the private pilot took me over a year and a little less than another year to pass my IFR check ride.  

5)  I wouldn't start my training in a Mooney (but it's not impossible).  I did most of this training and started my business travel in a flying club that had a C172, C182, and a Piper Arrow.  This allowed me to learn as I advanced through the more complex aircraft...invaluable experience.

6)  You should commit to the plan for using it before you start spending time and money.  Too many get through the training then stop flying or don't fly regularly....what a shame.  Business travel is a great way to make sure you use it.

7) It's very cool to be part of the flying community.  You will gain flexibility and it will definitely cost you but the cool factor is priceless!

8)  Don't defer maintenance if you are flying for business, you don't want to get stuck somewhere on an issue that could have been avoided.  Budget accordingly:

Speaking of money.  Here's my breakdown for my 2016 expenses to give you an idea of what operating cost for 160 hours looks like.  I fly quite a bit but even a 1992 vintage Mooney has parts that age that need to be replaced as you go regardless of hours flown:

$8,500  Maintenance including $5,200 Annual

$7000  Fuel (I run 145kts LOP at 8.5-9 gal/hr)

$3,600  Hangar (you could save some money here but spend more time)

$2,200 Insurance (pretty much the same as when I bought the Mooney with only 120 flight hours but 20 hours of retrac time)

$750  Subscriptions (Jeppeson GPS charts, Foreflight, etc)

$450  Upgrades (I added Rosen visors in 16...love them!)  You'll want to add some things over time but you don't have too....except ADSB-out if your plane doesn't already have it)

Total Operating Expenses - Approx $22,000 and $138/flight hour

(I'm not including interest expense or Engine Reserves.......I've got another 6 years on this engine at this pace so not thinking about that yet)

 

Big disclaimer....this is my experience an opinions based on that experience.  I hope it helps others looking to fly for this reason

 

 

 

 

 

[Skates97]

I'm the recent "mid-life" guy as @carusoam so aptly put it so I'll chime in here. I have been reading your thread on and off so I can't remember, but have you ever flown in a small plane? I think the first thing to do is find out if you even like it...

I wanted to fly my whole life, so when I was finally to a point where I could I jumped on it. I have enjoyed every minute of it along the way. I have a friend who years ago was taking lessons and when he got to the cross country part he quit. He "sort-of" liked flying, but when it came to navigating he was too scared that he would get lost along the way. If he had loved flying I think he would have still pushed forward and gotten over his fear of getting lost. As it was, the motivation was not there for him.

Look up some schools and take one of their "Discovery Flights." It will give you a chance to get into a small plane, see what it feels like, and figure out if you enjoy it. If you love it then move forward. At that point even if it is a wash between driving and flying, you'll choose flying because you'll be doing something you love.

 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Skates97

[carusoam]

Summary: He flys to support his work, so he got a Mooney.   

Best regards,

-a-

[Tater]

On 3/26/2017 at 8:04 PM, thinwing said:

I just checked departures out of Spokane felts field...service to Seattle/Portland..that's it!Yikes if anyone could make use of gen aviation it is you!

Yep, exactly, this is why I've been looking into this. I think the majority on this forum are used to cities with normal commercial service options. In addition to Seattle and Portland there are once a day flights to Denver and LA but for regional travel that is not to Seattle and Portland then I'm driving not flying. And in Seattle and Portland, once I get there I'm still getting in a rental car and driving 30 minutes to 2 hours to my final destination (which has a GA field nearby). And while I totally get that a mile by airplane costs more than a mile by car, every minute saved has a few dollars of opportunity cost associated with it.