First and Second customer Mooney in for cowling mod.

[Sabremech]

I learned something today working on Matt's cowling. I am able to kee the ram air with some minor tweaking of a flange to make it fit my new lower cowling piece. We'll be able to see if the ram air makes a difference or not with the air filter moved into the high pressure area of the cowling. The real challenge with keeping the ram air is hooking up the under cowl air filter box to the original air filter chamber with the oil cooler in the original location. We'll get it but things are tight. I also installed my new carbon fiber spinner on my airplane and it fits perfectly! 

 

[Hank]

Looks good! I see the stripes have already been painted on the new nose piece, too.

[MB65E]

Will you be able to plug the ram air intake if you don't use it or just fit another lower bowl? That intake and the oil cooler are my 2 least favored things on my airplane to work with. 

Looks great Dave!

-Matt

[Sabremech]

8 minutes ago, MB65E said:

Will you be able to plug the ram air intake if you don't use it or just fit another lower bowl? That intake and the oil cooler are my 2 least favored things on my airplane to work with. 

Looks great Dave!

-Matt

Hi Matt, 

I cut out the ram air intake and the oil cooler on this one, so they can be left out if the customer chooses. 

Thanks.

David

[Marauder]

Hi Matt, 

I cut out the ram air intake and the oil cooler on this one, so they can be left out if the customer chooses. 

Thanks.

David

 

The original designed ram air on my F (which is only a few serial numbers from Matt’s) will produce and extra 1.25” of MP.

 

If the new air box located in the high pressure area drops that delta significantly, it may well be worth closing it off and getting rid of that expensive boot.

 

If it still provides a significant MP boost, it sounds like it would be best to relocate the oil cooler to make more room upfront.

 

Really anxious to see Matt’s performance numbers.

 

 

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[kpaul]

12 hours ago, Sabremech said:

I also installed my new carbon fiber spinner on my airplane and it fits perfectly! 

That looks better on the plane than it did at the Summit!

[Bob_Belville]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

The original designed ram air on my F (which is only a few serial numbers from Matt’s) will produce and extra 1.25” of MP.

 

If the new air box located in the high pressure area drops that delta significantly, it may well be worth closing it off and getting rid of that expensive boot.

 

If it still provides a significant MP boost, it sounds like it would be best to relocate the oil cooler to make more room upfront.

 

Really anxious to see Matt’s performance numbers.

 

 

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My oil cooler has already been moved and a second landing light occupies that spot which should mean much less on the backside to interfere. My RAM air is worth 1.0-1.1" vs. the Challenger Air filter below it.  

[mike_elliott]

12 hours ago, Sabremech said:

Hi Matt, 

I cut out the ram air intake and the oil cooler on this one, so they can be left out if the customer chooses. 

Thanks.

David

The oil cooler inlet on the E/F is in a low pressure area also, so much so the airflow actually is outward on those planes w/0 a cowl closure. It will be interesting to see how Davids cowl mod affects/improves this poor factory design

[Bob_Belville]

2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

The oil cooler inlet on the E/F is in a low pressure area also, so much so the airflow actually is outward on those planes w/0 a cowl closure. It will be interesting to see how Davids cowl mod affects/improves this poor factory design

I've been striving to reduce temps for 5 years. At this point I'm waiting to see what David's cowl does before further tweaking. Coming home from MA Tuesday (623 nm, 4.7 hours, 40.1 gallons), the port side CHTs (#2, #4) both averaged 309 in cruise; on the starboard side CHTs were 336 & 350. Very acceptable. Oil Temp, with the cooler mounted behind cyl #4 and with a full ARI cowl closure, averaged 197. Since it was a cool day and I was running at 60% LOP that's where I hope to see some help. (I think I've done everything except replace the cooler.) 

[Marauder]

I've been striving to reduce temps for 5 years. At this point I'm waiting to see what David's cowl does before further tweaking. Coming home from MA Tuesday (623 nm, 4.7 hours, 40.1 gallons), the port side CHTs (#2, #4) both averaged 309 in cruise; on the starboard side CHTs were 336 & 350. Very acceptable. Oil Temp, with the cooler mounted behind cyl #4 and with a full ARI cowl closure, averaged 197. Since it was a cool day and I was running at 60% LOP that's where I hope to see some help. (I think I've done everything except replace the cooler.) 

We should try to compare some actual numbers. I know OAT and whether running lean or rich of peak will have an influence. You have any temps recorded while running ROP?


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[Guitarmaster]

The oil cooler inlet on the E/F is in a low pressure area also, so much so the airflow actually is outward on those planes w/0 a cowl closure. It will be interesting to see how Davids cowl mod affects/improves this poor factory design

I have lots of good data for oil temp pre-mod.

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[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

 

We should try to compare some actual numbers. I know OAT and whether running lean or rich of peak will have an influence. You have any temps recorded while running ROP?


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Yes, but not necessarily with the same OAT, power settings, etc. I'd suppose that when all else is equal, going LOP reduces CHTs 10 or 15 F. I suppose it has less effect on OilT.  Add to that, I tend to tweak cowl flaps if temps rise.

[Browncbr1]

For my F, RPM has the greatest effect on oil temp.  LOP/ROP/MAP doesn't change much.   OAT of course has a big effect too.   (OEM cowl and oil cooler location)   I usually have to crack the cowl flaps in summer cruise. 

[Bob_Belville]

42 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

For my F, RPM has the greatest effect on oil temp.  LOP/ROP/MAP doesn't change much.   OAT of course has a big effect too.   (OEM cowl and oil cooler location)   I usually have to crack the cowl flaps in summer cruise. 

I do run @ 2550 most of the time. Since the IO360A1A with a Hartzell Top Prop has a prohibited RPM range of 2350-2550 for MAP > 24", I could run at lower RPM above 6000' but I usually leave it at 2550 because 1) the engine seems to like 2550, and 2) I don't have to move the prop when I change altitude and the MAP goes over 24".

I'll try a lower RPM and see if OTemp behaves as it does for you.

[Browncbr1]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

I do run @ 2550 most of the time. Since the IO360A1A with a Hartzell Top Prop has a prohibited RPM range of 2350-2550 for MAP > 24", I could run at lower RPM above 6000' but I usually leave it at 2550 because 1) the engine seems to like 2550, and 2) I don't have to move the prop when I change altitude and the MAP goes over 24".

I'll try a lower RPM and see if OTemp behaves as it does for you.

I have the same combo... A1A with top prop.   Down low, I'll cruise at 2300/23-24".. around 8000, I'll cruise at 2400/22-23", and at 10000, I'll do 2500/22"   

Usually, this keeps OilT right at or below 200 and I just crack cowl flaps as needed.   This time of year OilT is starting to maintain about 10F lower than in summer heat.

If I cruise at 6-8000 with 2500 or 2550 rpm, I routinely see my OilT climb until I reduce RPM or back off on MAP so much that I'm loosing too much speed,..  Mine seems to realize better efficiency at lower rpms.. .

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, Browncbr1 said:

I have the same combo... A1A with top prop.   Down low, I'll cruise at 2300/23-24".. around 8000, I'll cruise at 2400/22-23", and at 10000, I'll do 2500/22"   

Usually, this keeps OilT right at or below 200 and I just crack cowl flaps as needed.   This time of year OilT is starting to maintain about 10F lower than in summer heat.

If I cruise at 6-8000 with 2500 or 2550 rpm, I routinely see my OilT climb until I reduce RPM or back off on MAP so much that I'm loosing too much speed,..  Mine seems to realize better efficiency at lower rpms.. .

Is your oil cooler in the factory location or has it been relocated?

 

[Browncbr1]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Is your oil cooler in the factory location or has it been relocated?

 

Original configuration.  And there is a certain airspeed that makes it hot no mater what.  So, I reduce rpm by 100 to begin descent.  (Without changing MAP)

[Bob_Belville]

Original configuration.  And there is a certain airspeed that makes it hot no mater what.  So, I reduce rpm by 100 to begin descent.  (Without changing MAP)

What do your CHTs look like? Mine are fine, even while oil temp is pushing 210.

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[Browncbr1]

7 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

What do your CHTs look like? Mine are fine, even while oil temp is pushing 210.

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#3 is always hottest and usually 320-330 in cruise..  #2 is just a few dF less and #4 is usually 10dF below #3 (~310)..   #1 is always coolest, right at 300.. 

I'm using collar piggy back probes on tanis heater probes and oem CHT..  The baffle is tight..   #3 & 4 peak together first, then #1 & 2 peak about .5 gph after.. sometimes less, sometimes more depending on power setting and leaning process.  I run #1 & 2 at peak and that gives 30-50dF LOP for #3&4.  It runs smoothly like this at the power settings noted in my previous post.  

Tempest finewires with 25BTDC Slicks

I have found that OilT seems to have little relation to CHT...  In climb, I can see 360dF on #3, 2600-2700rpm WOT and OilT steady at 190-195dF..  OilT seems to come up after establishing cruise.    120mph climb.

[MyNameIsNobody]

On 10/19/2017 at 12:54 PM, Bob_Belville said:

I've been striving to reduce temps for 5 years. At this point I'm waiting to see what David's cowl does before further tweaking. Coming home from MA Tuesday (623 nm, 4.7 hours, 40.1 gallons), the port side CHTs (#2, #4) both averaged 309 in cruise; on the starboard side CHTs were 336 & 350. Very acceptable. Oil Temp, with the cooler mounted behind cyl #4 and with a full ARI cowl closure, averaged 197. Since it was a cool day and I was running at 60% LOP that's where I hope to see some help. (I think I've done everything except replace the cooler.) 

Bob, for a reference I flew a couple hours yesterday. 4500' 25.5MP, 2520RPM, oil temp 175 in cruise burning 10.2. Outside temp was cool High 40's.   I never have to trail cowl flaps...

Maybe an overhaul on cooler?

[Bob_Belville]

2 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Bob, for a reference I flew a couple hours yesterday. 4500' 25.5MP, 2520RPM, oil temp 175 in cruise burning 10.2. Outside temp was cool High 40's.   I never have to trail cowl flaps...

Maybe an overhaul on cooler?

Thanks,

• Oil cooler was overhauled by Pacific 4 years (and 280 hours) ago. The vernatherm valve was checked out by Pacific at the same time.
• 2 years (155 hours) ago the vernatherm seat was reamed by Triad Engine. 

What model do you fly?

Where is your cooler mounted?

What are your CHTs?

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

Thanks,

• Oil cooler was overhauled by Pacific 4 years (and 280 hours) ago. The vernatherm valve was checked out by Pacific at the same time.
• 2 years (155 hours) ago the vernatherm seat was reamed by Triad Engine. 

What model do you fly?

Where is your cooler mounted?

What are your CHTs?

Bob -- I'm not an expert on the oil cooler system but I believe oil needs to be pumped through the cooler to make it work. Is it possible that you have an issue with your pump or some sort of weird blockage in the lines or through the pump? Scott's temperature readings sound like mine.  Here are a couple of photos from my JPI data for a flight. The first photo is during the initial climb and the second is at 8,500'. I don't think I have ever seen temps over 200 degrees.

[MyNameIsNobody]

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Thanks,

• Oil cooler was overhauled by Pacific 4 years (and 280 hours) ago. The vernatherm valve was checked out by Pacific at the same time.
• 2 years (155 hours) ago the vernatherm seat was reamed by Triad Engine. 

What model do you fly?

Where is your cooler mounted?

What are your CHTs?

Same. '66 M20E Super21 #1120

My temps on all cylinders that flight were 310-330. Even during summer that is the story. Stock oil filter and doghouse. No oil filter, only screen. 

[Captnmack]

On 10/4/2017 at 9:54 PM, mike_elliott said:

Wait, no question!

So I guess I'll hold off and send it back to Lasar. I've got lots of other mods to do anyway....

[Guitarmaster]

Did another fitting today.  We are finding, on the injected models, the oil cooler is simply in the way.  Dave thinks he could work around it, but it is uber tight. The command decision is to relocate the cooler  to clear up space and also make room for a second landing light.  
This will delay things a bit.  
The plan is to move the oil cooler and plug the with a plate allowing us to test the ram-air.  If the ram-air is ineffective, we remove it totally, making even more space and a cleaner installation. If we do remove the ram-air, I will have a nearly-new servo boot for sale.
Also for sale will be the LASAR cowl closure.