To IFR or Not IFR - that is the question.

[flyboy0681]

Just now, kmyfm20s said:

 A couple of weeks ago I went to Las Vegas for CES one night and the flight was in solid IMC for a hour of the flight it was fun! 

I must admit, flying in smooth IMC, at least to me, is pure fun.

[M016576]

6 minutes ago, kmyfm20s said:

Most of the best days to fly are IFR. Get above the clouds in GA territory and your all by yourself...

Days aren't IFR or VFR... they are IMC or VMC- but I get your drift.

while it might be fun/peaceful sometimes to be IMC, some of the most terrifying days/nights of flying are also IMC.  Simple problems can become quite complex when IMC.  

An instrument rating opens you up to more possible environments, and hazards.  Clouds, poor visibility, and the weather systems and phenomenon associated with those environments.  It is nice to have the instrument skill set to fall back on, should VMC change to IMC unexpectedly  in flight.

[M016576]

9 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I must admit, flying in smooth IMC, at least to me, is pure fun.

Then you haven't had a potentially life threatening emergency in IMC, yet.

not to say I don't fly IMC- I'm required to for my job, at times hard IFR from 200' until I break out at 300' an hour and a half later.... for me- IMC flight and VMC flight are similar in enjoyment, it's just that I don't get to see anything out the window, and my risk matrix is ticked a few notches higher, as I'm constantly anticipating and running through "worst case scenarios" in my mind while mentally preparing to action those scenarios. VMC flight I do the same, but the plans tend to be less complex and the stakes potentially less high (i.e., I can see where I'm going- that can mitigate some issues).

Edited January 18, 2017 by M016576

[flyboy0681]

1 minute ago, M016576 said:

Then you haven't had a potentially life threatening emergency in IMC, yet.

No I haven't, but my remark was made about the serenity that IMC brings when then ride is smooth and everything is coming up roses.

[M016576]

1 minute ago, flyboy0681 said:

No I haven't, but my remark was made about the serenity that IMC brings when then ride is smooth and everything is coming up roses.

That's valid- I edited my response to clarify my meaning.  And not come off as such a huge jerk (sorry)

Edited January 18, 2017 by M016576

[flyboy0681]

Then there are the times when you break out and there in front of you is a long stretch of concrete. That's what makes all of the training and frustration worth it.

[kmyfm20s]

3 hours ago, M016576 said:

Days aren't IFR or VFR... they are IMC or VMC- but I get your drift.

Correct! 

Edited January 18, 2017 by kmyfm20s
Original post didn't make sense

[Marauder]

I think it comes down to utility. For the couple of years I was VFR only, I found I canceled a fair number of flights that would have been considered easy IFR. Once I got the rating, I still canceled flights but less frequently and usually for a better reason than I had an 1800' stratus layer to deal with.

I still fly a lot of VFR more due to the challenges of going in a straight line in the Northeast.








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[DXB]

I am hating being vfr only at this very moment - sitting in the Philly terminal under a 2000ft overcast waiting to get on a flight for NOLA for a work trip. Frontier Airlines. Ugh.

Although getting the instrument rating may make me a more facile vfr pilot, that is certainly not the motivator.   There are enough other ways to grow as a vfr pilot to amuse me until the end of my flying days (e.g. tail wheel, aerobatic, seaplane, commercial).  I want to use the instrument rating.

However I am very concerned about maintaining currency, and also proficiency - a related but separate issue, once I have the rating.  I want to have a plan and infrastructure in place to ensure at least the currency happen with minimal scheduling effort.  Does anyone here use simulators exclusively for currency? That would seem to be a simple thing to have on the schedule every six months and bang it out in 3 hours with an instructor without worries about my plane being down, prohibitive weather, etc.  

[flyboy0681]

8 minutes ago, DXB said:

   That would seem to be a simple thing to have on the schedule every six months and bang it out in 3 hours with an instructor without worries about my plane being down, prohibitive weather, etc.  

You raised a very valid point. I thought staying current and proficient was going to be the easy part once I got my ticket, but it has turned out to be anything but. Unless you are going to fly regularly in IMC and shoot approaches at the same time, you'll need to go up with a friend or instructor to fulfill the requirements. My partner and I typically go up once a month so that we both stay current, but it doesn't always work out that way.

 

[Marauder]

I am hating being vfr only at this very moment - sitting in the Philly terminal under a 2000ft overcast waiting to get on a flight for NOLA for a work trip. Frontier Airlines. Ugh.
Although getting the instrument rating may make me a more facile vfr pilot, that is certainly not the motivator.   There are enough other ways to grow as a vfr pilot to amuse me until the end of my flying days (e.g. tail wheel, aerobatic, seaplane, commercial).  I want to use the instrument rating.
However I am very concerned about maintaining currency, and also proficiency - a related but separate issue, once I have the rating.  I want to have a plan and infrastructure in place to ensure at least the currency happen with minimal scheduling effort.  Does anyone here use simulators exclusively for currency? That would seem to be a simple thing to have on the schedule every six months and bang it out in 3 hours with an instructor without worries about my plane being down, prohibitive weather, etc.  

Dev - simulators are fine for reinforcing the procedural steps of flying IFR. Most of the sims aren't set up for your exact panel, so you still need to do some adjustment when you get back in your own plane.

For me personally, I do an IPC whether I am current or not. I'm fortunate that I have a good friend who is a CFII and my cost is usually a nice sushi dinner. I also try to do some flights with anyone I can find as a safety pilot. Between this and the IPCs, I feel current.

Another thought is perhaps we can convert some of these lunch events that the NJ Mooney group does into "lunch and learn" and do some flying together. There are a few instructors in our group as well as some experienced pilots. I think I saw the New England group is trying to do something like this as well.


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[gsengle]

The most annoying trip cancellation for the VFR pilot: weather is great Friday! But chance of ceilings Sunday... :/

Can't risk getting stuck and unable to return for work. Weekend scrubbed.


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[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, M016576 said:

Then you haven't had a potentially life threatening emergency in IMC, yet.

I have.

[Wildhorsesracing]

3 hours ago, larryb said:

But there is the thing, You are only working 1 weekend a month. You could work more, make more, and then have more to spend on aviation. You also have plenty of time to work on your training. 

This reminds me of the Mexican fisherman story...

An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked.  Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna.  The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.

The Mexican replied, “only a little while. The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs. The American then asked, “but what do you do with the rest of your time?”

The Mexican fisherman said, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siestas with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine, and play guitar with my amigos.  I have a full and busy life.” The American scoffed, “I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing, and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually New York City, where you will run your expanding enterprise.”

The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, how long will this all take?”

To which the American replied, “15 – 20 years.”

“But what then?” Asked the Mexican.

The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part.  When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions!”

“Millions – then what?”

The American said, “Then you would retire.  Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”

------------------------

Suffice it to say I am mid 50's, retired from my 1st business at 46 and am trying not to work so hard on my current business.  My current "job / businesses" is saturated at one weekend a month, we tried years ago to expand but it just degraded the quality.  I did the whole story above, made the money but now prefer to sleep late, fly a little, play with my kids and sip wine in the evenings.

So far I have heard many good reasons to get an IFR rating, but since I am older it is a tough decision especially since I prefer to fly low and slow and smell the aroma of the fields and villages.  If I was 10 yrs younger, I'd have it done in a week!

[Oscar Avalle]

I earned my IFR rating soon after I got my VFR. That was in 94... Most of my flying is done under IFR rules. I just feel that I am safer by being in constant contact with ATC. On the other hand by having my IFR ticket (and currency) you are readier to face weather situations that otherwise may be too challenging. However, the key from where I see it is to keep currency and train, train and train. Otherwise, the IFR ticket may even make you less safe, because you may believe that you are ready to face weather situations that as a VFR pilot you would have never dared to get close to. 

[Mooneymite]

24 minutes ago, Wildhorsesracing said:

I prefer to fly low and slow and smell the aroma of the fields and villages.  If I was 10 yrs younger, I'd have it done in a week!

Wildhorses.....I think you have it figured out.

Carry on.

[201er]

20 hours ago, Wildhorsesracing said:

I have been flying VFR for a few years(8) now and usually have plenty of time whenever I travel in my Mooney.  I spent last summer learning to fly tailwheel and aerobatics in a biplane.

So you go and learn to fly tailwheel but your Mooney ain't got a tailwheel. You learn to do aerobatics but your Mooney ain't rated to do aerobatics. And now you're telling us to justify why you should learn to fly instruments when that is one thing the airplane you bought is actually meant to do? 

[Wildhorsesracing]

Just now, 201er said:

So you go and learn to fly tailwheel but your Mooney ain't got a tailwheel. You learn to do aerobatics but your Mooney ain't rated to do aerobatics. And now you're telling us to justify why you should learn to fly instruments when that is one thing the airplane you bought is actually meant to do? 

It cost less that $2 AMUs to learn tailwheel and aerobatics (which were both fun to do).  My '62 M20C isn't equipped for IFR, although it did have a Loran in it, but my A&P convinced me years ago to take it out, especially since it was a tube radio.

[bonal]

I think you are the best judge for the question. from what I can tell there is not a single IFR guy that regrets the rating but as someone that is happy to limit my flying to VMC (not hard in Calif) I dont sweat not being IFR. would it make me a better pilot I'm sure it would. would it make me safer that may not be true.  How many stories have we read about qualified instrument pilots that end up dead because of weather that over whelms them or their airplane.  If you really need to travel then it makes perfect sence but if not and the weather is not perfect I say wait for a nicer day.

[gsengle]

I hate to say yes, but...

The problem is often not waiting for a nicer day. It's that you have to consider the return flight if you are going for any duration.


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[Ron McBride]

I have been flying for over 45 years.  I fly VFR almost exclusively.  I got my Instrument rating about 9 years ago.   This made me a better pilot, and safer.  I have been solid IFR twice and felt much more comfortable than trying to weave my way around the clouds.  I do practice and complete a yearly IPC to maintain my currency.  A late afternoon approach into an unfamiliar airport, early evening approach even to a familiar airport, shoot the approach.  Currency will help with this.    IN the training, I shot many back coarse approaches with a circle  to land, I learned the fly the plane very well.  Mooney's have a reputation for being hard to fly, BS, just learn the plane.  This training created a much better pilot and happier owner.  My wife is also very happy.   I fly out of Central California mountain airport, know the area very well.    IFR approach minimum are higher than vfr minimums, but when ite bad, go somewhere else and rent a car.    When I flew to the MAPA homecoming, it meant a departure 45 minutes before sun up, very little horizon.  I was very comfortable doing this as I was current on the instruments.    Be safe, and make an intelligent choice of what is right for you.

There are old pilots, there are bold pilots, but there are NO old bold pilots.

Ron

[gsxrpilot]

On the other hand, don't do it. You don't sound to convinced, and actually a bit to lazy to be any good at it. IFR pilots are not lazy pilots. The IFR world is a bit of an exclusive community. It's nice to file, punch through, and then have the smooth skies above the clouds all to my self. So come to think of it, we really don't need any more IFR pilots. You don't even have an IFR airplane. Come back to us when you invest some money in your Mooney to bring it up to spec and you're serious about stepping up to the next level of skill and expertise. Until then, enjoy your VFR "aerobatics" in the pattern.

[kortopates]

I love my IA rating, I use it all the time. And love teaching IA clients; especially in high performance aircraft.

But allow me to be the contrarian here. Of course just my opinion, but from what I gather of the OP and interest in the IA, neither the value, need, nor interest are there yet to make an IA a worthwhile pursuit. Sure there are all the benefits to the IA that folks have enumerated above. But to realize these benefits its much more of an investment than just getting your IA. The IA is just the rating that opens the doot into the IFR structure where you continue to learn, grown and stretch your legs or minimums as you build your experience base in the amount of weather you are able to handle from maybe a thin layer to more challenging conditions. We all have limited flying time budgets, if not also limited flying hours budgets, and if we have neither the time nor interest to dedicate a sizable chunk of our flying time budget to maintain and build our proficiency flying in IMC conditions we really ought to think twice before starting such an endeavor; rather than feel forced to use it after we get the rating. This is the toughest rating to get and requires the most perishable flying skills to maintain. We really have to be motivated to get through the training and enjoy it enough to want to keep doing practice approaches every month. Otherwise we're kidding ourselves. We may say we never intend to fly in hard IFR, whatever that means, or stick to easy IFR, but we should never use that rational not to train for very challenging IFR. I think most of us never go looking for "hard" IFR, but it finds us one way or another if we fly long enough. It could be much worse than forecasted or some kind of equipment failure like a gyro or even a vacuum pump; but likely something unexpected. That's when all of our proficiency training and hard work pays off and we feel we gained some valuable experience or we might all read about it. But when we enjoy the challenge as well as the utility and am committed to continually learning and working on our proficinecy it can be one of the most rewarding kinds of flying for all the fringe benefits it brings up. Just realize its more than a rating and something akin to pilot lifestyle. Many, many of the post above are pilots that have eagerly embraced that as any IA pilot should IMO. You'll know when you're ready.    

[bonal]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

On the other hand, don't do it. You don't sound to convinced, and actually a bit to lazy to be any good at it. IFR pilots are not lazy pilots. The IFR world is a bit of an exclusive community. It's nice to file, punch through, and then have the smooth skies above the clouds all to my self. So come to think of it, we really don't need any more IFR pilots. You don't even have an IFR airplane. Come back to us when you invest some money in your Mooney to bring it up to spec and you're serious about stepping up to the next level of skill and expertise. Until then, enjoy your VFR "aerobatics" in the pattern.

That's not like you gixxer perhaps your having a crap day like I was last week. Your point is taken though I'm sure the time money and commitment to be a proficient IFR pilot is not for everyone and I would rather be a safe well practiced VFR guy than a minimally  capable IFR guy. Kind of like the so many idiots I would encounter that would get a 1000cc sport bike as their first ride then go kill themselves on my favorite back roads. I certainly don't think being VFR makes me a lazy pilot. I hope that's not what you were implying.

[midlifeflyer]

4 hours ago, bonal said:

That's not like you gixxer perhaps your having a crap day like I was last week. Your point is taken though I'm sure the time money and commitment to be a proficient IFR pilot is not for everyone and I would rather be a safe well practiced VFR guy than a minimally  capable IFR guy. Kind of like the so many idiots I would encounter that would get a 1000cc sport bike as their first ride then go kill themselves on my favorite back roads. I certainly don't think being VFR makes me a lazy pilot. I hope that's not what you were implying.

I read gixxer's comment as being with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek. 

Even thought of commenting earlier that while the humor sounded harsh he made a good point on how quiet and peaceful it is flying IFR in the lower levels in sunshine above that overcast.