Good, not great landing

[cnoe]

Oh hell, you can dispense with all that British decorum! Considering all the talk about Comanche 400s we have to endure on MOONEYSpace he's lucky to still be on here.


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[Marauder]

Oh hell, you can dispense with all that British decorum! Considering all the talk about Comanche 400s we have to endure on MOONEYSpace he's lucky to still be on here.


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Well I find it quite refreshing having endured years of Philly's "whatsamatterforyou?" As long as they don't pull out the tea and crumpets or is that crickets or rickets or whatever they eat with tea?


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[Mooneymite]

46 minutes ago, cnoe said:

 Considering all the talk about Comanche 400s we have to endure on MOONEYSpace he's lucky to still be on here.

And considering that Clarence is from that "other" American country, he's really pushing our tolerance level!  

Darn good thing we're all so open minded!

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

In a J isn't the Electric Trim that big switch on the bottom edge of the panel along with all the other switches.  I didn't believe it had a CB, I thought the "switch" was the CB.

My K is that way. There is a large Kixon switch to turn it on and off, but no circuit breaker.

[DVA]

11 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

My K is that way. There is a large Kixon switch to turn it on and off, but no circuit breaker.

I bet if you pull the A/P breaker you will have no electric trim.

[cnoe]

I bet if you pull the A/P breaker you will have no electric trim.

Hmmmmmm. Maybe I'll learn something today. I wouldn't have thought this to be the case but will check on it soon.


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[Hank]

1 hour ago, cnoe said:

 

 

Hmmmmmm. Maybe I'll learn something today. I wouldn't have thought this to be the case but will check on it soon.


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Guaranteed, if it's electrical, there's a breaker that will kill the power. Somewhere . . .

[cnoe]

Guaranteed, if it's electrical, there's a breaker that will kill the power. Somewhere . . .

True, but the Klixon switch that controls my electric trim system has an integral breaker. Additionally it's still functional if my AP is turned off. So I never considered that the AP "breaker" would affect the trim system. It might; sounds like it does for some planes. Always learning. I'll report my findings here once I know.

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[Amelia]

I believe the circuit breaker IS in that trim switch in my 231. There surely was no separate circuit breaker in the right panel labeled 'trim'. And turning the trim switch off and on made no difference in this situation, nor did any other electronic wizardry I could think of. It seemed purely, mechanically, jammed.

One more thing. You Mooniacs are the absolute BEST. Not only have you made a really psychologically bruising situation much more tolerable, but the practical wisdom has been remarkable.  I received a call from one Mooney owner in mid-Virginia who has been most generous with his time and expertise in helping me sort through repair options, when that time comes.  Amazing and gratifying, to say the least. My most humble and hearty thanks for all the good-ness.

;

[Bob_Belville]

As can be seen in the pic of my CBs above, there's a 2 amp CB for "trim" that is separate from a 5 amp CB for the autopilot. There are separate toggle switches for each on the pilot side of the panel in addition to an A/P disengage button on the pilot yoke. (The plane has a STec 50 A/P and a separate STec Pitch Trim System.) 

I believe that the servo clutches are supposed to be set such that the pilot can overpower a malfunctioning A/P or Trim. Is that not so? Of course that might not help if there's a flashlight or other foreign object jamming the mechanism. 

[cnoe]

I believe that the servo clutches are supposed to be set such that the pilot can overpower a malfunctioning A/P or Trim. 

Yep. That's part of my pre-flight check prior to every run-up.

But as you said FOD is a whole 'nuther matter.


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[sleepingsquirrel]

2 hours ago, Amelia said:

I believe the circuit breaker IS in that trim switch in my 231. There surely was no separate circuit breaker in the right panel labeled 'trim'. And turning the trim switch off and on made no difference in this situation, nor did any other electronic wizardry I could think of. It seemed purely, mechanically, jammed.

One more thing. You Mooniacs are the absolute BEST. Not only have you made a really psychologically bruising situation much more tolerable, but the practical wisdom has been remarkable.  I received a call from one Mooney owner in mid-Virginia who has been most generous with his time and expertise in helping me sort through repair options, when that time comes.  Amazing and gratifying, to say the least. My most humble and hearty thanks for all the good-ness.

;

For a good bruIsing and 200 posts of no wisdom you have only to mention this on the RedBoard!

[bradp]

Amelia you did a fantastic job.  I'm a frequent reader of the crash talk and every trim issue that comes across there results in a prayers and condolences string.

I'm happy to offer you no prayers and no condolences, just congratulations on a job well done.  Too often GA is under the microscope for stupid pilot mistakes - this was a smart pilot save.  Job well done.

[PeytonM]

Amelia, my sincere congratulations on a safe outcome on what could have been a tragic outcome. I lived the reverse of this: uncommanded trim full down during the landing phase.  Please review a post I made on this forum a couple months ago: "Runaway trim. Scary stuff." At the end of that post, I even wonder what might have been the outcome for runaway trim "up," or in IMC conditions. Prophetic?  However, I think your situation was even scarier than mine.  Obviously, you did all the right things. I am so thankful you and your passenger are ok.  

As an update, my avionics tech DID find a broken wire in my trim switch on the yolk, but could not determine whether that was the cause, or whether it came un-soldered when he lifted the switch out to examine it.  (I need to follow up with Century; they did not offer any reason why several transistors on the trim board failed.)  I'm over a month out since getting the repair completed on and I'm doing manual trimming during critical phases of flight  e.g. takeoff and landing.  Lastly, I'd seriously recommend changing your subject line to include "runaway trim," or "uncommanded trim failure," or some such.  Your experience needs to searchable for what happened.  It sounds like this is happening too often.  

 

 

[Bob_Belville]

7 hours ago, Amelia said:

I believe the circuit breaker IS in that trim switch in my 231. There surely was no separate circuit breaker in the right panel labeled 'trim'. And turning the trim switch off and on made no difference in this situation, nor did any other electronic wizardry I could think of. It seemed purely, mechanically, jammed.

One more thing. You Mooniacs are the absolute BEST. Not only have you made a really psychologically bruising situation much more tolerable, but the practical wisdom has been remarkable.  I received a call from one Mooney owner in mid-Virginia who has been most generous with his time and expertise in helping me sort through repair options, when that time comes.  Amazing and gratifying, to say the least. My most humble and hearty thanks for all the good-ness.

;

We'll all be watching for the silver linings - in addition to your safety. (I had a prop strike and discovered a bad cam that I would not have known about.)

I touched based with my Stafford Caravan safety pilot "Sox" to see if he could be of assistance and discovered that low and behold he was already all over it.

Mimi, I flew with him at a PPP in September, what a nice guy, your Marvin has a good champion in his corner. Mooniacs are indeed special friends.

[Bob_Belville]

Mimi, I had an exchange with Don Maxwell sharing some pics. He says repairs wold be "easy" and that he'd be willing to ferry Marvin to his shop if you'd like. I passed that info on to Lee. 

There are indeed great people around these parts.

[mike_elliott]

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 10:45 PM, Bob_Belville said:

Mimi, I had an exchange with Don Maxwell sharing some pics. He says repairs wold be "easy" and that he'd be willing to ferry Marvin to his shop if you'd like. I passed that info on to Lee. 

There are indeed great people around these parts.

Speaking of Don, he just posted this on the Mapa list

I receive about 6-8 calls a year about stuck trim wheels. Recently an accident was caused by one. There has been a Service Instruction regarding this since 1990. Why it is a Service Instruction instead of a Service Bulletin or AD, I do not know. What usually happens is the pilot is using the electric trim in the landing flare. The trim runs up against the stop and it will lock the wheel and trim full up. Not too bad unless you have to go around. If you encounter this, fly the plane, get some altitude, use less than full power if need be. Once safely  at altitude you can break the wheel loose but you must get real ruff with it as we say here in East Texas. Real ruff!! You can’t break the wheel. This service instruction changes the stops so that it will not happen. It seem like the worst model is the K model. Check to see if you have an affected model or SN. I recommend compliance if you do. Someone please share this with the other lists.

Someone recently asked in another thread why I take the Bravo to Texas for it's annual. Don's knowledge to make sure these kinds of things are dealt with before they become my issue is one reason why. I am not saying that there are not other very knowledgeable shops/IA's, just Don has my back on this one.

[Guest]

Mike,

You must be referring to S/I M20-88.  Here is the opening lines

SUBJECT: STABILIZER TRIM STOP/SCREW MODIFICATION

MODEL/S/N AFFECTED:

TIME OF COMPLIANCE: INTRODUCTION:

M20J - S/N 24-0001 THRU 24-1694 & 24-3000 THRU 24-3172 M20K - S/N 25-0001 THRU 25-1230
M20L - S/N 26-0001 THRU 26-0041
M20M - S/N 27-0001 THRU 27-0058

AT OWNERS DISCRETION

There have been occasions when the elevator trim control wheel has been manually turned to the extreme nose up or nose down condition and the electric trim system was unable to move the trim indicator nut off the stop at the next electrically activated command. Manual movement must be the initial action to get the trim indicator nut off the stop, then the electrical system will operate normally.

If an aircraft owner has experienced this situation in his routine habits of operation, the incorporation of this Ser- vice Instruction may be desired. 

 

Clarence

[Guest]

On November 30, 2016 at 8:30 AM, cnoe said:

Oh hell, you can dispense with all that British decorum! Considering all the talk about Comanche 400s we have to endure on MOONEYSpace he's lucky to still be on here.


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Having been chastised once for telling you all how wonderful a Comanche is, I really try to refrain now. 

Clarence

[mike_elliott]

29 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Mike,

You must be referring to S/I M20-88.  Here is the opening lines

SUBJECT: STABILIZER TRIM STOP/SCREW MODIFICATION

MODEL/S/N AFFECTED:

TIME OF COMPLIANCE: INTRODUCTION:

M20J - S/N 24-0001 THRU 24-1694 & 24-3000 THRU 24-3172 M20K - S/N 25-0001 THRU 25-1230
M20L - S/N 26-0001 THRU 26-0041
M20M - S/N 27-0001 THRU 27-0058

AT OWNERS DISCRETION

There have been occasions when the elevator trim control wheel has been manually turned to the extreme nose up or nose down condition and the electric trim system was unable to move the trim indicator nut off the stop at the next electrically activated command. Manual movement must be the initial action to get the trim indicator nut off the stop, then the electrical system will operate normally.

If an aircraft owner has experienced this situation in his routine habits of operation, the incorporation of this Ser- vice Instruction may be desired. 

 

Clarence

yep, thanks Clarence, I should have put the SB in Don's post.

[Hank]

". . . may be desired." Who has the decorum now, the Brits or the nice Texans who built planes in the 79s and 80s???  

[Seth]

Amelia-

Just sent you a PM.  GREAT job getting down safely.

The MSC at W00, Freeway Aviation, does a great job should you want to stay local (they are driving distance to Stafford).  Call Tommy Williams 301-262-6544 or Chris.  Both will be able to assist you should you not yet have made a decision.  They are also available for a second opinion.  Depending on the damage, they may be able to send a crew and ferry it to Freeway pretty quickly.

As mentioned, Don Maxwell is great too.  I'm just thinking of where the aircraft is located, where the Freeway MSC is located, and where you are located, it may make more geographic sense.

Also, let me know if you need transportation back and forth from NC to the repair process if your K stays at Stafford or gets transported anywhere locally.  I'm happy to help when my schedule permits.  My in-laws are located near Stafford, VA, so I'm very familiar with that airport and airspace near the SFRA.

Call or email anytime - my contact info is in the PM.

Good luck!!!  and again, GREAT JOB.

-Seth

 

 

 

[RocketAviator]

First I am thankful you and your passenger was not hurt, 2nd sounds like you did a fantastic job & last I'm sorry about you plane.

take care,

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Clarence my memory of the Comanche was it had REALLY comfortable seats and lots of room.  But hey we didnt leave the ground.   

I've heard that as well. Some even say that a Comanche will carry more weight, they can even fly off grass, they don't ever need fuel tank re sealing, they cruise faster, their engines cost less to operate and overhaul and they're flown by pilots not driver.  

But you'll never hear me say these things on a Mooney site.

Clarence

[cnoe]

Comanche... engines cost less to operate
Clarence

My average J gets ~17 nmpg in still air. You're saying the behemoth under your cowl can top that? Get-outta-here!


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