Brand new pilot training in a Mooney?

[flight2000]

So, I'm going to jump in and say, yes, you can learn in a Mooney.  Why, well, why not?  Every person is different and one size does not fit all.  I would not have any issues putting my 18 year old son in our M20E (before I sold it...) and allow him to get his PPL with it.  He already had almost 150 hours of observation in the right seat and had hand flown it numerous times.  My insurance company was even okay with it and was surprised to learn that my premium would only go up an additional $750 a year to add him as a student pilot and there were no additional requirements like he must have 25 or 50 hours dual before solo.

Having said that, the right instructor is CRITICAL to making it work.  You don't want someone that still has a soaking wet CFI ticket doing the training.  You would need to find a Mooney instructor that has tons of hours instructing in Mooney's.

Really, flying a 180 hp M20A/B/C/G or 200 hp M20E/F/J is not rocket science.  There are a few extra steps to work, but it's simply not that difficult.  If you are taught the basics from day one, you do not learn/develop bad habits.  That is why people have a hard time transitioning from the Piper and Cessna trainers to Mooney's or Beech's or what ever.....they have to have the bad habits they learned in a more "forgiving" aircraft beat out of them before they become proficient with a slicker air frame.  The more time you have developing those bad habits, the rougher the transition will be. 

Would I put him in an Turbo M20K/M/TN for primary training, probably not.  Would probably skip trying it in the long body M20R as well.  Those are higher performance aircraft that need some more time under your belt to conquer, but it does go back to the same premise above, everyone is different and if taught the skills up front.....anything is possible.

Just my $.01 for what it's worth.

Cheer,s

Brian

 

[BradB]

2 hours ago, rbridges said:

my two cents is get his feet wet in a rental.  I felt sorry for the 172 that I slammed into the runway on multiple occasions.  Definitely glad that it wasn't my mooney.

I remember the repeated crash and goes that I did in rental 152 and 172's during training while learning to land.  I eventually moved up to flying arrows for the complex and retract experience.  I got my high performance endorsement in a staitionaire and spend a lot of time in G1000 172's before moving up to my Mooney.

 

Brad

[JimColeman1]

1 hour ago, Dave Colangelo said:

Another thing to consider is Insurance costs when computing your total cost as this can vary heavily. If you plan to have your son on the insurance there may be stipulations around what he has to do in the plane before he can fly it solo (there will be stipulations for you as well) since its going to be used for training that will most likely raise the costs. Going through this now (with all my hours in Pipers) i can tell you the insurance companies will only lower rates for time in type when I asked them what I can do to mitigate costs. The rates alone may make it a big cost difference between a fixed gear/fixed prop plane. 

From my hunting I would also (generally) say that most of the Mooney's out there tend to have less over all hours on the air frames than your run of the mill 172 or cherokee from the same year. As you know this generally has nothing to do with quality but its something to think about. In a similar vein many of the older Mooney's I have seen, have in some way shape or form been modded from their original config. Be it the 201 windshield or some avionics updates, a panel overhaul or some kind of GPS addition they are all a bit different. On the flip side Cherokees with a classic Narco stack and the same avionics they have always had are a dime a dozen. 

 

Regards 

Dave

 

Great points, Dave. Along the lines of insurance, how does it generally work if you are the one insured, but allow someone else to fly the aircraft? Does each person need to be signed up by your insurance company? If I understand correctly, if I'm insured for the Mooney, I could let my son fly it, but only if I'm in the airplane with him? Else he would need to also be insured? Trying to get a grasp on how that all works.

[JimColeman1]

1 hour ago, flight2000 said:

So, I'm going to jump in and say, yes, you can learn in a Mooney.  Why, well, why not?  Every person is different and one size does not fit all.  I would not have any issues putting my 18 year old son in our M20E (before I sold it...) and allow him to get his PPL with it.  He already had almost 150 hours of observation in the right seat and had hand flown it numerous times.  My insurance company was even okay with it and was surprised to learn that my premium would only go up an additional $750 a year to add him as a student pilot and there were no additional requirements like he must have 25 or 50 hours dual before solo.

Having said that, the right instructor is CRITICAL to making it work.  You don't want someone that still has a soaking wet CFI ticket doing the training.  You would need to find a Mooney instructor that has tons of hours instructing in Mooney's.

Really, flying a 180 hp M20A/B/C/G or 200 hp M20E/F/J is not rocket science.  There are a few extra steps to work, but it's simply not that difficult.  If you are taught the basics from day one, you do not learn/develop bad habits.  That is why people have a hard time transitioning from the Piper and Cessna trainers to Mooney's or Beech's or what ever.....they have to have the bad habits they learned in a more "forgiving" aircraft beat out of them before they become proficient with a slicker air frame.  The more time you have developing those bad habits, the rougher the transition will be. 

Would I put him in an Turbo M20K/M/TN for primary training, probably not.  Would probably skip trying it in the long body M20R as well.  Those are higher performance aircraft that need some more time under your belt to conquer, but it does go back to the same premise above, everyone is different and if taught the skills up front.....anything is possible.

Just my $.01 for what it's worth.

Cheer,s

Brian

 

Thanks for this, Brian. Great points. I appreciate you shedding a bit of light on the insurance piece as well.

[Raptor05121]

3 hours ago, Dave Colangelo said:

Depending on when his birthday is I can give @Raptor05121 a run for his money on the youngest one around (Im also 25).

Dave

1

Dave, I was born July 22.

[pinerunner]

My son is getting his private and he is NOT doing it in my Mooney M20E. Yes I think its possible but I think it makes so much more sense to keep it simple until he gets his private. We've found an excellent instructor who doesn't overcharge ($35 for instructor $100 for his Piper Archer if you put $1000 in advance) with lots of students and great attention to detail so my son can easily compare notes with the others.

I checked with my insurance company for their guess at covering him in the Mooney when he's a new private pilot and their guess was half again the price I get with my commercial and 400+ hours and they'd require him to get 10 hours in it with an instructor. I didn't ask them what the insurance cost to do all the student work in a complex aircraft....

When my son goes flying with me I get tips of things he's learning that help me polish up my game and of course I let him take the controls a bit and help me with the navigation.

[JimColeman1]

Just now, pinerunner said:

My son is getting his private and he is NOT doing it in my Mooney M20E. Yes I think its possible but I think it makes so much more sense to keep it simple until he gets his private. We've found an excellent instructor who doesn't overcharge ($35 for instructor $100 for his Piper Archer if you put $1000 in advance) with lots of students and great attention to detail so my son can easily compare notes with the others.

I checked with my insurance company for their guess at covering him in the Mooney when he's a new private pilot and their guess was half again the price I get with my commercial and 400+ hours and they'd require him to get 10 hours in it with an instructor. I didn't ask them what the insurance cost to do all the student work in a complex aircraft....

When my son goes flying with me I get tips of things he's learning that help me polish up my game and of course I let him take the controls a bit and help me with the navigation.

Sounds great! Thanks so much for chiming in.

[carusoam]

Unfortunately the insurance companies can dictate your decisions.  Give them a call to find out their rates to include everything, plane and pilots. Check on the life insurance to make sure you are covered for flying as well.

First year with the new plane cost an extra AMU. (1k)

Private Pilot ideas.

Best regards,

-a-

[flight2000]

27 minutes ago, JimColeman1 said:

Great points, Dave. Along the lines of insurance, how does it generally work if you are the one insured, but allow someone else to fly the aircraft? Does each person need to be signed up by your insurance company? If I understand correctly, if I'm insured for the Mooney, I could let my son fly it, but only if I'm in the airplane with him? Else he would need to also be insured? Trying to get a grasp on how that all works.

Jim, if you are allowing someone else to fly your plane, they can do so with no changes to the insurance policy IF they meet the open pilot qualifications.  For my Mooney and now my Beech, the open pilot clause is 500 total time, 125 complex, and 25 Make and Model.  If they don't meet those requirements, they need to be a named pilot on your policy, which usually incurs a small increase in the yearly premium (sometimes it does not) based on their qualifications.  For training, I was going to add my son as a named pilot on the policy and that would have caused my policy to go up by $750 for the year.  Best bet is to just call some insurance companies as carusoam mentioned above and find out what they can get for you with quotes.  Insurance is a very individual thing.

When my son is flying from the right seat, I'm still overall responsible for the flight as PIC.  Just make sure you aren't allowing them to put you in a situation you can't recover from.

As a side comparison, our auto insurance went up by $1,600 a year when we added him to the policy...ouch... 

Cheers,

Brian

[JimColeman1]

5 minutes ago, flight2000 said:

Jim, if you are allowing someone else to fly your plane, they can do so with no changes to the insurance policy IF they meet the open pilot qualifications.  For my Mooney and now my Beech, the open pilot clause is 500 total time, 125 complex, and 25 Make and Model.  If they don't meet those requirements, they need to be a named pilot on your policy, which usually incurs a small increase in the yearly premium (sometimes it does not) based on their qualifications.  For training, I was going to add my son as a named pilot on the policy and that would have caused my policy to go up by $750 for the year.  Best bet is to just call some insurance companies as carusoam mentioned above and find out what they can get for you with quotes.  Insurance is a very individual thing.

When my son is flying from the right seat, I'm still overall responsible for the flight as PIC.  Just make sure you aren't allowing them to put you in a situation you can't recover from.

As a side comparison, our auto insurance went up by $1,600 a year when we added him to the policy...ouch... 

Cheers,

Brian

That makes perfect sense, thanks, Brian! Yeah, crazy how much more the car insurance went up compared to the plane's insurance. Reminds me of the fact of how ironic I found it when I was renting an airplane at 20, but couldn't rent a car until I was 25. =) 

[Dave Colangelo]

@flight2000 seems to have covered the insurance answer (I am only looking at the stuff for just me so I didn't have the answer). I also would advise to just make a call (if you haven't already) to the AOPA insurance people they were able to answer way more over the phone than the policy paper explained which was nice.

 

@Raptor05121 I'm March 22nd so you have me 4 months, if you are every in the KPHL/KPNE ill buy you a beer. 

 

Regards

Dave 

[Oldguy]

3 hours ago, JimColeman1 said:

Great points, Dave. Along the lines of insurance, how does it generally work if you are the one insured, but allow someone else to fly the aircraft? Does each person need to be signed up by your insurance company? If I understand correctly, if I'm insured for the Mooney, I could let my son fly it, but only if I'm in the airplane with him? Else he would need to also be insured? Trying to get a grasp on how that all works.

The other thing to consider is renter's insurance if he does use another plane to get his PPL. Cheap but valuable.

[Conrad]

Hey, I am doing the thing which you describe. I did 10 hours in a 152, bought my Mooney, and am starting to draw to the close of my training. I pay 1700ish a year for my insurance. I've had a few landings which I felt were probably a bit unkind to the tank sealant, and I think two now that I had to reject due to the porpoising tendency. Especially with only one person in the airplane it takes some getting used to how little back pressure on the yoke is used to bleed off any excess speed over the runway. Financial and instructor delays to my training have been significant over time (annuals cost $$), as well as delays due to instructor availability, since there will be many instructors out there who your insurance will not allow you to use. Combined with weather, training has been a sloooow process, and an expensive one.

So I'm proof that it can be done, but do you want to? I'm happy to answer any more questions you have.

[Brian Scranton]

Of course you can do it. And you should. Buy that damn plane. It will take 3 weeks to get your financing, pre-buy, etc...in that 3 weeks, go fly a 172 for 4 hours. Get your muscle memory back, nail your landings, and move onto your new bird. Unless of course you're a shitty pilot--then you'll need some extra time! 

[Yetti]

It's about how good you can be about walking and chewing gum.  Things happen faster in a mooney, so you always have to be on your game.   Ride a motorcycle and be able to do lots of things at once great.   Solo in something else.

[gsengle]

Of course you can do it. And you should. Buy that damn plane. It will take 3 weeks to get your financing, pre-buy, etc...in that 3 weeks, go fly a 172 for 4 hours. Get your muscle memory back, nail your landings, and move onto your new bird. Unless of course you're a shitty pilot--then you'll need some extra time! 

All the comments were about his 21y/o son doing his primary training in it - not him...

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[Brian Scranton]

13 minutes ago, gsengle said:

All the comments were about his 21y/o son doing his primary training in it - not him...

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Doh. Reading is such an important aspect of understanding. 

I take it back. But a 172, get your chops back, teach you son. Then sell that 172! 

I bought and learned in a 182 for my first 150 hours. Sorry for my confusion! And have fun!!!

[JimColeman1]

On 9/22/2016 at 8:31 PM, Conrad said:

Hey, I am doing the thing which you describe. I did 10 hours in a 152, bought my Mooney, and am starting to draw to the close of my training. I pay 1700ish a year for my insurance. I've had a few landings which I felt were probably a bit unkind to the tank sealant, and I think two now that I had to reject due to the porpoising tendency. Especially with only one person in the airplane it takes some getting used to how little back pressure on the yoke is used to bleed off any excess speed over the runway. Financial and instructor delays to my training have been significant over time (annuals cost $$), as well as delays due to instructor availability, since there will be many instructors out there who your insurance will not allow you to use. Combined with weather, training has been a sloooow process, and an expensive one.

So I'm proof that it can be done, but do you want to? I'm happy to answer any more questions you have.

Excellent perspective, thanks so much for sharing. $1700 a year is a lot, but doesn't seem crazy given the circumstances. 

[JimColeman1]

2 hours ago, Brian Scranton said:

Of course you can do it. And you should. Buy that damn plane. It will take 3 weeks to get your financing, pre-buy, etc...in that 3 weeks, go fly a 172 for 4 hours. Get your muscle memory back, nail your landings, and move onto your new bird. Unless of course you're a shitty pilot--then you'll need some extra time! 

Haha! I guess "shitty" is relative. =) 

[Yetti]

it took me about 50 hours to flying a mooney acceptable...  ie not so crappy

[N5756v]

There is no way my mooney would have survived my training . I am at 180 hrs and I owned my plane for a year before I had my license , listen to the experienced guys around here . I would not let my son train in my mooney, when he flys with me he sometimes " times takes the controls " but that's about it no landings . When I was getting my license I remember one time I dropped that poor 172 , felt like 3 feet , probably was 18 inches . In the mooney well there would have went landing gear I am sure of it


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[ArtVandelay]

There is no way my mooney would have survived my training . I am at 180 hrs and I owned my plane for a year before I had my license , listen to the experienced guys around here . I would not let my son train in my mooney, when he flys with me he sometimes " times takes the controls " but that's about it no landings . When I was getting my license I remember one time I dropped that poor 172 , felt like 3 feet , probably was 18 inches . In the mooney well there would have went landing gear I am sure of it


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Nope, they can handle 27 inches free drop, required by FAA certification.