How does Mooney handle the Stall?

[Parker_Woodruff]

Go ahead...practice a highly uncoordinated stall in an aircraft that's certified to accept intentional spins...like a C172 in utility category.

[Fx1250]

I realize this post is getting a bit old, but I would like to add a few thoughts. I owned an M20F for 10 years, and used to practice stalls regularly. Even with the ball perfectly centered, the left wing would drop like rock (rigging?). The problem I have is that you must recover immediately, or you are really asking for trouble. Why push the edge of the safety envelope?

During the NASA general aviation spin tests in the 70's and 80's, Mooney's were one of the aircraft that entered flat, unrecoverable spins. The rudder is relatively small on Mooney, making spin recovery more difficult. If you get a chance read Rich Stowell's fantastic book "The Light Airplane Pilot's Guide to Stall/Spin Awareness" (2007). The first pages to read are 306-307, which discusses Mooneys.

Here is a quote from Bob Kromer, the Mooney test pilot for several of the earlier models:

"Outside of practicing deep stalls and realizing how to control any tendency to "drop a wing" with the rudder, the average Mooney owner has no business doing spins in a Mooney. They use up a minimum of 2,000' per rev and outside of finding all those lost things hidden on your floor, the experience isn't pretty"!

2000 feet per spin revolution - think about it.

 

[Magnum]

Quote: Fx1250

I realize this post is getting a bit old, but I would like to add a few thoughts. I owned an M20F for 10 years, and used to practice stalls regularly. Even with the ball perfectly centered, the left wing would drop like rock (rigging?). The problem I have is that you must recover immediately, or you are really asking for trouble. Why push the edge of the safety envelope?

During the NASA general aviation spin tests in the 70's and 80's, Mooney's were one of the aircraft that entered flat, unrecoverable spins. The rudder is relatively small on Mooney, making spin recovery more difficult. If you get a chance read Rich Stowell's fantastic book "The Light Airplane Pilot's Guide to Stall/Spin Awareness" (2007). The first pages to read are 306-307, which discusses Mooneys.

Here is a quote from Bob Kromer, the Mooney test pilot for several of the earlier models:

"Outside of practicing deep stalls and realizing how to control any tendency to "drop a wing" with the rudder, the average Mooney owner has no business doing spins in a Mooney. They use up a minimum of 2,000' per rev and outside of finding all those lost things hidden on your floor, the experience isn't pretty"!

2000 feet per spin revolution - think about it.

 

[KLRDMD]

Quote: Fx1250

I owned an M20F for 10 years, and used to practice stalls regularly. Even with the ball perfectly centered, the left wing would drop like rock (rigging?). The problem I have is that you must recover immediately, or you are really asking for trouble. Why push the edge of the safety envelope?

[mikefox]

A few thoughts on stalls:

• 
  
• Practicing stalls in any aircraft is critical to pilot skill (not just for airshow performers, as one member suggests!).  Training for all pilots should focus on: recognition and avoidance, aircraft control through the inadvertent stall, and proper recovery techniques.  We do indeed fly an aircraft close to critical AOA (but not beyond!) on every flight, if we are landing properly.
  
• Stalls in a Mooney are no different than any other aircraft, except that the airraft is a bit more sensitive to improper use of controls through the stall and recovery - remember - trying to pick up a "dropped" wing with aileron just increases the AOA of that wing, putting it deeper in the stall, and increases drag on that wing, promoting faster spin entry (pro-spin aileron) - so the members that have stated rudder use to keep the wings level through the stall and recovery are perfectly correct!
  
• For those who think pilots don't need training in all aspects of stalls, just remember Colgan Air.
  

[markeg1964]

I’m a relatively low time pilot with just over 300 hours.  Several months ago I transitioned form a Cessna 170A to a M20B – I’m having a blast with the Mooney.  On my second flight with my CFI we practiced stalls.  Following are my thoughts when compared with the Cessna:

The Mooney took more effort to stall.  As the Mooney slowed down it felt much like the Cessna becoming mushy and then the stall horn would start to sound.  A little slower and the nose would start to buck warning of the stall.  But instead of stalling it would continue to buck until I pulled harder on the yoke.  If a partial stall was initiated all that was needed to break it was releasing back pressure or adding power.  If I held back pressure until a full stall was entered (windshield full of earth) it always dropped a wing – just like the Cessna.  Opposite rudder, releasing back pressure and applying power would pull us out.  I felt more comfortable stalling the Mooney just because it gave so much warning. 

The Mooney did pick up a lot more speed with the nose pointed down.  On my first full stall I used the same inputs I had used in my Cessna which included a push on the yoke.  The push caused a negative G which surprised both of us!  I quickly learned stalls in the Mooney are easier to recover from due to the larger engine and slipperier airframe. 

The only area I felt the Cessna was easier to fly stalls in was its larger rudder made holding up a wing easier. 

I doubt I will practice full stalls much as aside from being kind of fun I can’t see accidently entering a full stall.  However, I do plan on practicing partial stalls regularly so I can recognize when they are near and avoid getting caught. 

[kerry]

Quote: skyking

I am with most of the posts here. In my "A" model a stall is a non event. I did a few steep ones, power on and off during my checkout ride and it always was straight ahead with the ball centred. The wing never dropped at all.

[67M20F]

Quote: Immelman

Regarding Mooney stalls..

Some caution is advised here, here is why:

1. Mooneys, in my opinion, have a rather small rudder and reduced rudder authority compared to other light single engine airplanes and trainers. When doing stalls power-on, for example, I suggest not going above cruise power (65-70% or so). The reason is that you may not be able to remain coordinated with full right rudder approaching the stall at higher power settings.

2. Stall *recovery* is quick and easy. The pre-stall buffet is a nice aerodynamic warning. However, if you hold it into a full stall there can be the tendency for a wing to drop, and because of the smaller rudder it takes time to bring the wing back up vs. entering an incipient spin. In my airplane a wing will drop even if coordination is proper and the 'full' stall held. Again, promptly reducing angle of attack will break the stall -- I'm talking about intentionally taking it just a bit further.

3. Mooney's are not, of course, approved for spins. Per part 23 requirements, the factory had to demonstrate that a spin was recoverable to 1 turn or 3 seconds, which ever comes first. Beyond that, there's no guarantee.

[N33GG]

OK... I want to throw my 2 cents into the pile.

When I got my private back in the early 70s, I did my training in a Grumman Yankee.  The stall horror stories were all over the place.  And frankly, as a student pilot listening to these stories coming from people with more experience and obviously wiser than me, I was more than a little concerned.  Finally, I talked to my CFI about my concerns, and he said he really didn't understand the need for being afraid.  Next flight we made, we stalled that Grumman every way we could.  Ball centered, ball left, ball right, immediate recovery, very delayed recovery, power on, power off, etc.  (Note: we did not spin it)  I was then very relieved and more comfortable.

Since then, I have flown many, many different airplanes.  Some airplanes have more horror stories regarding bad flight characteristics than others.  This is not an all-inclusive list, but Piper Tomahawks, Piper Aerostars, Globe Swifts, and Mitsubishi MU-2s come to mind.  I don't have any jet experience, just props and gliders.  If I were to go back and compile a list of all the different types and models of airplanes I have stalled, it would be a very long list.  The list of airplanes I have spun is shorter, but also a pretty good list.

Here's my view as a result of many years of happy flying many different airplanes:  Although there are some variations, they all obey basic aerodynamic principles.  Period. 

Yes, I know, airplanes can be more or less complex, more or less performance, but they all still obey the same laws of physics, and that is the point.

Have I been surprised at times by a wing dropping or something a little out of the norm?  You bet.  But more often than not, I have found that to be airplane specific, making me wonder about rigging, hidden damage, warpage, unusual weight distribution, etc.  For example, all the Cessna 172s out there probably do not stall the same.  Airplanes that are rigged, balanced, and straight, tend to be pretty well behaved, albeit with some differences.  Then again, you shouldn't expect an Aerostar to fly exactly like a Cessna 152.  But they are both airplanes, and obey the same laws of physics.  In general, the science of a stall doesn't change with the model you are flying (for most conventional aircraft at least...yes, I know, there are a few unusual designs out there that are different to an extent).

Caveat... while homebuilt and experimental aircraft also obey the laws of physics, they deserve a different level of concern and caution IMHO.  Not that there aren't some great homebuilts out there, I just get a little more alert when I climb in one, especially if I am unsure of the design, builder, or history.

As an instructor, I find pilots who have flown mostly only one or two aircraft (eg a Cessna 172 or Piper Cherokee), and transition to another aircraft with different flight characteristics, especially higher performance, tend to be more apprehensive.  Many pilots with time only in one or two models are somewhat programmed, for example, to know how much to pull back on the yoke to make a good landing in that one model, and don't really think about what is going on and what would be required in another type aircraft.  And too frequently, I see these pilots only wanting to learn what the new control inputs are for the new aircraft, and not focus on the basics.  My caution here is that too many pilots learn to fly a specific airplane, and are somewhat short on understanding of basic aerodynamics and flying skills.  This is not intended as a criticism, as it is impossible to have all private pilots have the flying skills and experience of someone with several thousand hours in many different aircraft.  I try to teach the fundamentals, along with the particular aircraft we are flying, such that future transitions will be less of an event.  I think this approach also tends to help de-fang the various horror stories that have always, and will in the future, continue to circulate.

How does Mooney handle the stall?  The several Mooneys I have stalled have done quite nicely! 

[carusoam]

"How does Mooney handle the stall?  The several Mooneys I have stalled have done quite nicely! " N6791N

George, Nicely stated from a person with experience and offering technical detail to support your arguments.  Very commendable.

Best regards,

-a-

[N33GG]

Quote: carusoam

George, Nicely stated from a person with experience and offering technical detail to support your arguments.  Very commendable.

Best regards,

-a-

[scottfromiowa]

George,

I am not a several thousand hour pilot.  I am one of those Cessna, Piper, Mooney...three to six model guys.  The fact that you are comfortable with severe wing drop (ball not centered)...or maybe I'm NOT understanding what you are saying, but I know I don't want to spin my Mooney.  I know if I enter a power on or power off full stall with the ball in my airplane NOT centered that MY Mooney is NOT "kind", "docile", "pleasant" or any other word you want to use to describe the event.  The plane snaps over (aggressive wing drop) in an instant to the uncentered side.  For that reason in MY plane I only do power on/off full stalls...really any stall...with the ball centered.  Your last line needs the caveot...with the ball centered...in my opinion based on my low experience in my plane.

[leesh]

I get the impression from discussions like this about stall characteristics, that the definition of a 'stall' for purposes of practice are somewhat subjective. I bought a dvd from a Florida flight school about flying the M20C at the time I bought my M20F (it was only $20). They were going through a checkride with a student. When doing the stall, it seemed like as soon as the stall warning went off, the instructor had the student put the nose down and declared it as the stall.

That certainly wasn't the experience I had with my instructor when getting my Mooney this past December. The first stall I tried scared the *&)# out of me when the left wing dropped. He then proceeded to show me how it's done and did the very same thing. Of course, I think it was exacerbated by the fact that the rudder was definitely out of rig. But the instructor insisted that we practice it until I could hold it at that mushy point working the rudders back and forth (after the rudder trim had been adjusted somewhat) and then recover from the full stall. I feel better about doing stalls after that, but frankly I'm still somewhat nervous about doing them and it made me more vigilant about making sure I don't accidentally go into a stall. Someday I hope to go through some training on recovery from unusual attitudes (spins, etc) recovery (not in the Mooney) -- just so I'll feel more confident about handling a situation like that.

Alisha

[scottfromiowa]

Good stuff Leesh.  Just confirms what George says "all planes are different"...know your plane.  My plane is a non-event over and over...if ball is centered.  Glad you identified and addressed with your plane.  I would also like to do some spin recovery training in an aircraft approved for spins...for the fun and experience.

[Hank]

Leesh--

The best 'how to fly your Mooney" training that I have seen was at a MAPA PPP event [Pilot Proficiency Program]. You will do everything, in your plane, with an experienced instructor. If I recall, it was 20 hrs. Ground and 4 hrs. flight, in a 3-day weekend. Very beneficial as a newbie, and I'm about ready to go again for a refresher now that I am comfortable in the airplane.

[leesh]

Good suggestion Hank! I'll have to watch for one I can attend.

Alisha

[Hank]

My MAPA Log just came. I think there's one this summer in Atlantic City.

[Lionudakis]

I know I've been padding the numbers slightly for safety, but never actually went out with a cfi and stalled the thing to see how it looks, and feels, and at what indicated speeds, Especially compared to my old 150. After a few hours of various configurations, I feel a ton better in the airplane. It stalled straight ahead, and there was no shortage of indications it was to slow ! Now for the instrument rating.

[Tester]

So, I worked as a floor mechanic and supervisor on the newer Mooney, did annuals on older models as well. I was also tasked with test flying the S models after wet wing, A/C and S-tec swap outs to the GFC700's. I have had some wild rides in them. I have stalled them at approach speeds and full power departure speeds. All of this done at 10,000'.  Approach speeds not to bad, wing drops up to 30 degrees. You need to be quick and attentive. Full power on stalls? Wicked with a 3 blade prop! I have been pulled straight down, inverted and even forced into two aileron rolls. One going straight down and one going off horizontally. You should never enter a spin in one. They will flatten out after about 1 and 1/2 turns and you will not get out of it. These aircraft are not for training, they are advanced laminar flow wing designs that break into a stall quickly and anything above 70% power will kill you close to the ground. I have lost as much as 3,500 feet in recovering and that was when I was expecting a wild ride. I would never intentionally stall one at high power unless you are testing it after modification and if you have never stalled the one you fly, I would take it up a few thousand feet so you have time to recover. No 2 Mooney's stall the same. The stall triggers are set for each aircraft because the wing form is never standard. These are hand built aircraft and each wing, left and right stalls at a slightly different speed. You can get some very asymmetric stalls that will roll the aircraft quickly. Laminar flow wings stop producing lift immediately at stall with very little warning, thus the fast drops left or right. Fly it for what it is, a beautiful hand built speedster that handles well at faster speeds not a slow trainer speed.

[RobertGary1]

Most pilots are not aware of when their Mooney is stalled and continue to pull back lookjng for that big break in what is actually a deep stall. The plane is stalled when the nose starts to drop as you’re pulling back. For faa Private there is no need to go beyond that, it’s a full stall by definition. Pulling it further into a deep stall is just for fun. 

 

-Robert, cfii 

[peevee]

why did this guy seek out a nearly 7 year old thread and bump it to tell his story?

[carusoam]

Welcome, aboard Tester.

Got time for a discussion?

keep coming back, as the audience here, comes in at different times....

you can start with an introduction of your self...

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

Holy thread resurrection... 

 

I don't see any reason for the Mooney to go flat in a spin as an inevitability.  I have no desire to see for myself.  I find that some  Mooneys stall relatively wings level with the ball centered, others will drop a wing no matter what you do.  My F will always roll left with any amount of power.  I have never had a problem taking it to the buffet and back. I do not find the buffet to be hard to recognize.  For whatever reason my bird seems to drop on the third "bump".  When taken to the buffet at a constant attitude one feels a gentle whump, whump, break.  Almost any relaxation of the elevator prior to the break will  prevent it.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Shadrach

[Danb]

Ross my Long body is much nastier in a stall than my two J's were, there's a chance the long guys will act as described, I had one spin encounter during a BFR,when it was called that, a few years ago, must respect the big guy..

[RobertGary1]

A flat spin requires the CG be aft of the center of pressure.  I've never seen any legitimate source claim any model Mooney loaded within CG would end up in a flat spin. However, the altitude loss during a Mooney spin is very high and therefor not recommended of course.

Flat spin recovery requires power. They're a lot of fun in aerobatic planes.

-Robert