Sell as is or overhaul and sell?

[romair]

Time has come to start the process of selling my Mooney. I was planning on doing it, for a couple of months, and now things changed a bit. Oil analysis came back with increased iron, and upon cutting the filter open there is indeed iron present. I will need to go see it, as this has only been relayed to me by my mechanic.

So the question is - sell as is, or overhaul and sell? This is a first run engine, 2100 hrs SNEW.

[MooneyBob]

I can't answer your question but I am very curious what are the iron numbers now compare to previous analysis and how much and what form of metal is in the filter.  Thank you very much. 

[ArtVandelay]

Is the iron coming from cylinders or cam shaft?  personally I would price it as a runout, then if no takers, do the overhaul.  That way you can try it both ways and the question is mute.  In the meantime, a borescope examination might be a good next step.

[Guest]

I'd sell it as is,. Putting a new engine in it is like repainting a house and replacing the carpet to sell it.  The next owner may have different tastes.

Clarence

[Mcstealth]

I would find out where the iron is coming from. Go from there. 

 

[Lood]

You're between a rock and a hard place. Here in South Africa, the situation is like this:

Many buyers are looking for an airplane with a TIMEX engine, but just about all of them wants to pay almost nothing for the airplane. On the other side, the current economic situation, puts an airplane with a freshly overhauled engine, just a little above what most buyers can afford to pay.

[garytex]

Lood knows how to turn a phrase.

I have always enjoyed felt runout price on planes with high time engines wasn't low enough to pay for overhaul, so I would price as runout and see.  Sorry your engine has bit you.

[BigTex]

I'm afraid you might of missed your window to sell your plane without taking a bath on it. With 2100 hours on it you must of known you were on borrowed time. I'd personally have the engine overhauled and enjoy the plane for another 500 hours then think about selling it. Your plan us really nice so you should be able to get top dollar for it.

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[M20F]

If you have to sell you are going to be better off selling as is.  You won't get the overhaul cost back and personally (and this is just me) I would prefer overhauling myself if buying.  I also am suspect of planes freshly overhauled and put up for sale.  You can always list and then if needed overhaul so worth going the easiest route first.  As others have said though I would figure out what exactly the problem is before I just decided to overhaul.  

[hindsight2020]

sell as is, you're not gonna make your money back, but in the as is case you'll minimize capital foregone without the benefit of use value.

[Loogie]

You could advertise it w two prices, one w an overhaul, and one w/out. Let the customer decide.  You just never know, either way, you areprepared to deal w either contingency and are satisfied w either deal.

Good luck!

[romair]

Will send it for scanning electron analysis to see where the metal is coming from. However, given the high time of the engine, I'm not sure if it would make sense to replace just that one part. If it's a lifter, usually there is damage to the cam as well, etc...very rarely is just an isolated part.

One reason to do the overhaul is that the fuel injection and exhaust systems have been overhauled 250 hrs ago, and all the hoses/alternator/starter are less than 150 hrs.  The only thing that it needs is just an engine overhaul, and maybe I can get a reasonable rate to get it done. A buyer would probably expect me to discount it to a price that would reflect that everything needs to be replaced...

i will start looking for quotes and see what is the ballpark. I don't necessarily want to do the overhaul and keep it for another 500 hrs at this time. Advertising it with two different price options may be the way to go...

[Jerry 5TJ]

Your potential liability as seller may be lower if you list it "as is, engine making metal" rather than fixing it up, especially other than a complete factory overhaul.  

 

 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, jerry-N5911Q said:

Your potential liability as seller may be lower if you list it "as is, engine making metal" rather than fixing it up, especially other than a complete factory overhaul.  

 

 

How?  I'd say some would view installing a factory engine as an even greater liability.

Clarence

 

[BigTex]

Out of curiosity it sounds like you're ready to sell even it the engine isn't run out. Are you looking at some other type of plane or wanting to get out of airplane ownership all together?

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[pinerunner]

I like this reply because of what I've heard/read about problems right after mechanical work. I would not pay the most for 0 SMOH since it would leave me to do the shakedown and discover .. whatever and then get it fixed. Tough to say just where I think the "sweet spot" is maybe 100-500 hours. Love to see a bunch of experienced Mooney mechanics chime in on this. I can't say which will minimize the impact on your wallet. If you just want to get out ASAP you'll probably have to resign yourself to taking a hit. Last I knew it was a buyers market. For me the question would be: Do you want to be involved in a major mechanical project (working with a good mechanic) and the subsequent shakedown or do you just want to get out and move on?

David 

[nels]

53 minutes ago, pinerunner said:

I like this reply because of what I've heard/read about problems right after mechanical work. I would not pay the most for 0 SMOH since it would leave me to do the shakedown and discover .. whatever and then get it fixed. Tough to say just where I think the "sweet spot" is maybe 100-500 hours. Love to see a bunch of experienced Mooney mechanics chime in on this. I can't say which will minimize the impact on your wallet. If you just want to get out ASAP you'll probably have to resign yourself to taking a hit. Last I knew it was a buyers market. For me the question would be: Do you want to be involved in a major mechanical project (working with a good mechanic) and the subsequent shakedown or do you just want to get out and move on?

David 

I agree with Dave. I was going to say about the same thing. It is a buyer's market so if you sell yours cheap or at a loss, you should be able to buy another at a good price in turn.

 

 

 

[rbridges]

I think you'll have two groups of buyers.  Experienced plane owners IMO would want to buy it at a discount to reflect the "run out" engine, and then have it overhauled themselves.  Less experienced pilots would probably prefer to have what they feel is a "turn key" plane.  I think I'd rather buy it run out and do it myself.  That way I can control who does it and what is done.  It would have to be priced accordingly b/c you're competing against low-mid time engine planes, and people can use math to figure out where their price point is.

[jetdriven]

Two sides to the same dilemma.  A runout plane with old radios is basically worth zero, while that same plane with a 30k engine is worth 45k.   

[romair]

Metal in the oil filter.  Will send it for scanning electron microscopy.

[Mcstealth]

I am not a mechanic.

I say Cam spalling.

DF

[ryoder]

Check out Jewell for a good overhaul that won't break the bank.

http://jewellaviation.com/pdf/Price%20Sheet%202015%20Engines.pdf

[M20F]

41 minutes ago, Mcstealth said:

I am not a mechanic.

I say Cam spalling.

DF

Not a mechanic either but believe Iron would be a sign of lifter wear and not the cam which is steel.

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, Mcstealth said:

I am not a mechanic.

I say Cam spalling.

DF

Yup.  Cam/lifters.  Been there. Also, Iron readings in oil analysis don't discriminate between cast iron and steel.  

[jetdriven]

3 hours ago, romair said:

Metal in the oil filter.  Will send it for scanning electron microscopy.

Where do you send it for that.  Curious.  Howard Fenton in Tulsa wasn't too precise, he said "iron fines" and that was as specific as he got.