Purchase a C, E or J?

[Sqrtree]

So I've been researching the different models now for about a year and was leaning towards a J model.   I haven't flown for about 10 years and looking to get my feet wet again. I have a few hours in a J and flew a 66 E for about 3 hrs.  I love the J's for their speed and IFR platform. 

Im not to concerned with fuel economy and more interested in speed.  As I read the forums people seem to be real happy with their C's and E's which has now got me reconsidering the J.  I'm not to fond of the manual gear probably due to lack of familiarity and the older instrument panel layouts.   Money is obviously a concern when I'm looking at spending 60k on a J.  However on the flip side if I can get a C or E for in the 30k range and still get close to the 150 knot speed then that would be money well spent.  Being an A & P maintenance cost isnt to much of a concern.

Anyone with a pre-J that can give me some insight on why they like the C vs E, and maybe what cruise speeds they are looking at with some speed mods that would be helpful. Living in las vegas also has its challenges with getting high enough for the MEA's. O360 vs IO360?  

 

-Todd-

[MB65E]

Hi Todd!! Welcome! You will get many opinions with a question like that. I think a J is nice because it has all the nice features that have been refined continually since 1960. That said, if you don't need the leg room for your back seaters, I'd look at an E. A J for 60k might be a little rough where the same price could find a nice modified E that will be nicer than the J and possibly faster. My E will true out at 158kts at 9500 at 10gph. It's a work in progress but I don't ever see a reason for a J. With as much time invested as I have, the difference is not worth it to me.  The hot starts require technique only, where the carbed C will start anywhere & anytime. I don't think a C will be limited by the altitude in the Vegas area. The E should out climb the C. 

Maintenance might be a bit more on an older airframe, due to the age, belly panels, and Cowling removal. 

I really love the concept of the E. It can be as light as the C with more power. 

All in all, I'd Stay away from a 60k J and stay away from a 30k C/E. 

There was a recent post with a great looking good value mooney here. I'll find it and connect the dots.

 

Good Luck!!

-Matt

Edited September 8, 2015 by MB65E

[MB65E]

Mr Jerry's C looks nice!!!

-Matt

[DaV8or]

I would say plan on spending your $60k and either get a nicely equipped and highly modded E, or a decent stock J. A $30k C or E will leave you wanting more and much of what you will want isn't even available anymore. Hold out for an E with an updated 6 pack panel, good radios, 201 windshield and different cowl, or just get a clean stock J. Both of these will give you the speed you want and be reasonable for basic instrument flying.

[Shadrach]

Almost any 4 cylinder Mooney will get you withing spitting distance of 150kts (+/-10kts) it's pretty subjective as they will very depending on weight, prop installation and rigging. I met a J owner at KANP a few weeks back that was having his employees paint his plane out on the tarmac (he owns a boat restoration business). I was impressed at how well they were putting paint on his plane and we got to talking. He owned an E for 12 years. I commented that he must really love his J. He said that it was a nice airplane, but that it was 10kts slower and didn't get off the runway or climb as well as the E.  The J had a 3 bladed McCauley.

Manual gear can be a challenge at first. Some dislike it. I would say my guess is that of the folks who have real world experience with both, more prefer it than hate it. That's the camp I'm in. People tend to be religious about it one way or the other. Many points of failure are eliminated with manual gear. 

The difference in block speed between an A, B, C, E, F and J is likely under 10kts but there are outliers on both ends that might do a little better or worse. On a 500NM trip the difference in arrival times will be counted in minutes not hours. I'd shop avionics, condition, cosmetics, and usefull load more than speed. At the end of the day, those qualities will determine how much airplane you get for the money, not an extra 6kts.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Shadrach

[carusoam]

Shared experience...

When I was new to aviation with no other background in flying, I went C.  It is a great way to get your feet in the air.  It is faster than brands C and P. The economics are really good when the cupboard is bare.

As the family grew, the J was on our requirements list.

In the future... When the kids have left the house, I'll be looking for an E with all the IFR bells and whistles...

could be just me,

-a-

 

[bonal]

Welcome , I think your price point is telling you look for the E a nice 60k J is a hard to find unless you want to do some work. A 60k E would be a nice airplane. I love the manual gear it's like second nature very easy to operate and pretty bulletproof. As for Vegas we have flown from Nor Cal thru the southern sierras with no problems. Real speed is relative since you won't likely be pushing your engine as hard as it can go most folks find the sweet spot and from all the tails I have read the difference in TAS is at most 10 KTS between the early birds. If you need a bit more space then an F is great and still well within your price range.

[RobertGary1]

A $60K J is going to put you near the bottom of the barrel. Higher time engine, older avionics etc. remember we have the 2020 ads-b mandate to budget for as well. With a new engine and so-so paint and so-so avionics my F vRef's at $60K 

[Marauder]

Todd -- I think with your A&P license you might be willing to take on a plane with some mechanical challenges. That might broaden your search a bit. My advice would be to concentrate on the things you consider "must haves" in the platform.  If you are flying IFR on a regular basis, I would look for a better equipped avionics plane than try the upgrade path. 

[Andy95W]

Todd-  regarding the manual gear- my first M20C had electric gear.  My current C has manual gear.  I'm also an A&P and do all of my own work.  When shopping for my current airplane, I specifically wanted the Johnson bar and I truly don't want to go back to the electric.  If the M20J had manual gear I would consider buying one.  Heck, if the M20TN had manual gear I would consider buying one of those (if I could afford it).

IMHO:

M20C= cheap speed.

M20E= more money and more speed

M20J= more money, more speed, and more back seat room if you need it.

I don't need the back seat room and I'm a cheap ba$t@rd so I wouldn't own anything but my C.

[gsxrpilot]

I currently own a C at the high end of the cost/speed range. I'd be interested in moving to an E or J, but I'd still want to be at the top of the range. I've gotten used to my panel/speed mods/etc.

[RobertGary1]

The J is about 10 knots faster than the F for about 75% more in purchase cost. You can buy a lot of cool stuff for the the big price difference. If you don't plan on putting people in the back the E is going to be better value. The F just adds 10" in the back seat. The J is the F with built in speed mods.  

 

-Robert

[Marauder]

The J is about 10 knots faster than the F for about 75% more in purchase cost. You can buy a lot of cool stuff for the the big price difference. If you don't plan on putting people in the back the E is going to be better value. The F just adds 10" in the back seat. The J is the F with built in speed mods.  

 

-Robert

And some of the Fs have been modded enough to be in early J speed range...

[ArtVandelay]

There is more to a J that just some speed mods, especially 78 or later...

Increase speeds Vge, etc

6 pack panels are standard

Push,pull controls

Modern yokes

More room.

You will get a better return on your investment if you plan on upgrading your panel because Js have higher prices. Sure you can add speed mods to a C-F along with new instrument panels etc, but those who do are doing it because they love their planes.

[RobertGary1]

There is more to a J that just some speed mods, especially 78 or later...

Increase speeds Vge, etc

6 pack panels are standard

Push,pull controls

Modern yokes

More room.

 

You will get a better return on your investment if you plan on upgrading your panel because Js have higher prices. Sure you can add speed mods to a C-F along with new instrument panels etc, but those who do are doing it because they love their planes.

 

 

 

 

Room is the same between the F's and J's, air frame is identical. Some changes happened in later J's but the late F's and early J's only differ by speed mods. Instruments: identical, etc. You do lose the cool jet throttle quadrant in the later J's unfortunately .

 

-Robert

[Hank]

many C, E & F models come with modern panels [updated c. 1966] and electric gear and flaps [optional in mid-60's, standard starting in 68 or 69]. My 1970 C has all of these, plus the cool throttle quadrant.

A bonus to the original "modern" panel vs. redone panel is that I have 12 instruments in a slight curve [including 2 VOR heads], while the redone panels have less, all in nice straight lines.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Buy the best J you can afford.  You will like the room and not having to "do" speed mods.  Buyers market. Can't buy one for 60AMU's that has an updated panel....Probably can for $80.  An E is just a slightly faster C.  An F is a slightly slower E with more room and more fuel.  Buy the best model you can afford for what you value most and you will likely be happy.

An auto-pilot and 430W as well as engine monitor (4-probe) are better bought WITH then added.  Sorry paint and interior with well-maintained engine that has flown are keys to happiness.

[RobertGary1]

The later F's have the same panel as the J. I'd challenge anyone to tell if I have an F or J from a picture of my panel.

Agreed on the autopilot and GPS. You lose money the moment you put it in, much cheaper to buy with it in. The engine monitor isn't very difficult to install and honestly I wouldn't fly without one. In fact I had one engine failure that I may not have made an airport if the engine monitor didn't tell me things were starting to go south and started flashing at me.

 

-Robert

[DXB]

Obviously as many opinions here as Mooney owners. Here's my own unique combination of reason and emotion:  Being a CB and new pilot, I bought a C even though I could afford a decent J.  The C was the least costly and the "entry level" plane, which seemed appropriate given my low experience level.  In retrospect, I would have done just fine with an E, F, G, or J from a piloting standpoint.  The only downsides to the E and F relative to the C are the extra 4k or so at overhaul and trickier hot starts.  In return you get a bit of extra speed and no carb ice worries.  You may even get some of that 4K back on fuel by running LOP.  The operating cost difference is probably even less for you, given your A&P credentials.  The extra rear seat space in the F or J would be nice to have even though I don't need it right now.  But I now love the unique manual gear and hydraulic flaps on the old planes with their simplicity and relative lack of maintenance issues (CB austerity).   

In retrospect, I wouldn't hesitate to get a nice E or F with the manual gear - they are the best bargains in my view if you can find one (same with really nice Cs for that matter). These will exist at your price point.  An F with manual gear, the key speed mods, and an updated panel would be my perfect plane in this regard.  Instead I've put a thoroughly modern panel into my C - a decision that makes no economic sense.  But I love the plane and want to become a serious IFR pilot in it.  Basically, buy an old Mooney from an idiot like me who dumps a bunch of unrecoverable money into it, planning to have it forever, and then has to sell it. 

[MyNameIsNobody]

J priced to sell with low time airframe and 225 since major on prop and engine...Estate plane...Just Up on Ebay.  In Twin Cities...

$30k right now.  A lot of boxes checked with that one.  Worth a look/call?

[ArtVandelay]

J priced to sell with low time airframe and 225 since major on prop and engine...Estate plane...Just Up on Ebay.  In Twin Cities...

$30k right now.  A lot of boxes checked with that one.  Worth a look/call?

FYI, that plane had a wheels up landing short of runway back in 89, dated avionics, interior, exterior, and $30K is the starting bid and may not be a minimum.

Edited September 8, 2015 by teejayevans

[Bob_Belville]

Well Todd, you've had a lot of great advice here. Consider this, I have a 158 kt, 50 year old E model. I suppose the panel which is ready for 2020 (GTN750 + GDL88) has traffic, weather, Stormscope, STEC50 A/P, speed brakes, bladders, PFS tuned exaust, AOA, manual gear, hydraulic flaps, dual LED landing lights, 201 windshield and cowl, EDM 930, Scimitar prop... would be more modern than 98% of the Js flying today.

So... make a list of what is most important to you but do not close your mind re model - C,E,F,J - a great many Mooneys have been upgraded meaning there's a great deal of overlap and you'll want to consider the merits of each individual airplane which will be more important than what the plane was like out the factory door. 

(If you're not in a rush, I'm an old man, who knows when Nancy will be putting my E on the market.)

 

 

[Mooneymite]

I have a 74 'C' with electric gear and flaps.  When I bought it, I had no intention of keeping it past when my son had "done his time in it".  17 years later, I still own and love it.  The late model 'C' is truly a wonderful airplane with a bulletproof, easy starting, long-lasting O-360.  Even though the Johnson bar Mooneys have their true believers, the electric gear and flaps are actually superior in my opinion.  The C's simplicity/reliability is incredible.  Al Mooney hit a home run.

Yes, there are faster Mooney's, but for over-all cost of ownership vs speed and fuel economy, I'm not sure you can beat a 'C', unless it's with an M-18 Mooneymite.  ;-)

Happy hunting.

[HRM]

Im not too concerned with fuel economy and more interested in speed.  

Todd, there is a reason my E is called a Super 21.

Legally, I cannot disclose how fast I have flown in it.

Vne is rumored to have been set by an FAA inspector, not Mooney engineering.

Regardless, by choosing Mooney you have chosen wisely.

[Sqrtree]

Thanks for all the replies and input. Hank and Bob those are some very impressive panels you have and that is definately at the top of my list. It sounds like a clean C or E would work just fine at this point as its just me and the wife. The mission is less than 500 miles and thats just for vacation and hamburgers. Got the kids out of the house and looking forward to getting back in the air.

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