New member and not a Mooney owner.....YET.....Hope to be soon - comments please

[ShermAv8tor]

OK, so I joined to hopefully to get some insight or be told I'm crazy....either way I'm still gonna buy a Mooney. My name is Sherman & I'm currently a student pilot with 30 hrs and a quarter share owner in a C150. been in aviation 30 yrs on the maintenance side but mostly Gulfstreams & USMC fighter jets prior to that. I do have GA experience, but its limited and Im obviously getting alot more experience now. Im finally pursuing getting my PPL and my own plane. Im driving myself crazy trying to do all the research and looking at numbers, cost, finding the right plane, looking for pre purchase inspection criteria, etc. Im more than capable i just need help with finding out or getting this info and finding out what the problematic areas are to be concerned with whaen I do go look at a plane I might buy.

Anyway...I live in NoCal (for now) and based out of Byron C83. Future plans and mission: I have family in North Texas and I want to make trips there several times per year as a VFR pilot to start (crazy right? but yes IFR will come in due time) and would like the trip to take no more than sunrise to sunset if possible including fuel stops. My wife plans to fly with me, and possibly my son (hes 18 but off to college in TX next fall - he is uncertain about flying long trips in single engine plane) I will also have occasions where 3 adults plus me may want to go on shorter trips from Byron to places such as Tahoe, Las Vegas, Monterey, San Diego, Seattle, Cabo, etc. My wife, son & I are a smaller size family (meaning each person weighs between 150 & 120) nobody taller than 5'8"

So....after looking at all kinds of planes and brands...its the Mooney for me (I have always liked them) that kind of speed and range on 4 cylinders? heck yea Im a maintenance guy and 2 less cylinders to refresh or overhaul is reduced cost, but I think I have it down to an older C, E or F.....but really leaning towards the F for cabin size and the fuel injected engine. Initially I wanted the C model 66 or newer, but more and more research tells me fuel injected is better due to carb ice in a NA engine like the O-360. Not sure if thats an accurate statement - but any ice is concerning to all of us pilots out here! Especially the new guy! Not sure If I will be flying over the sierras directly (with O2) from here to get there or heading south towards Las vegas then cutting across where altitude may be lower, just depends on what I learn the airplanes are capable of as well as my own personal limitations. I have the insurance covered, so no worries there. If I find the right deal, i will buy while im still a student, would like the plane to be IFR cert already, but not a deal breaker. Looking to spend around 40ish so my wish list is gonna be tight. I have a couple of F's in mind one a 67 ad one a 69, I hear the 67 is a great year to have due to flush riveting and mooney not cutting corners until starting in 68 (non flush riveting, etc)

Looking for comments from actual Mooney owners on all the above, if I left a piece of my puzzle out, please ask me for further clarification.

How tight is the C&E when it comes to 4 adults? are they really 2 place adult cabins? Is the E&F over the C a better choice with FI considering what I want to do on long trips? please help point out areas I should focus on when I go look at a plane besides the usual log books, AD's, STC, etc. (I will still want to find a mooney guy to do a PPI, but I can do alot of upfront leg work if I know where and what to look for) adise, comments, concerns all welcome....

Thanks and Im looking forward to joing the Mooney owners group!

[jrwilson]

If you want to sit in a C, send me a message. I'm close by, in rancho Murieta. For all you mention I'm super happy with a C and never had an issue with carb ice. Plenty of power for Tahoe, etc.

[DonMuncy]

You are looking in the right place and asking the right questions. Most of these questions have been addressed in some length. Look through the prior posts.

I am in Dallas and have done the Texas to California run quite a few times. I did it in one day for a while, and found it was pretty tiring doing the East to West flight at one setting. I started doing Dallas to El Paso or Las Cruces one day and the next leg the next day. Coming east is not so bad, with the time differential and the generally better winds.

If you really plan on 4 adults, you will almost certainly want the mid or long bodies for the extra room. You will as much useful load as possible to avoid some of the extra fuel stops.

[Yetti]

This is a pretty good read to get started.   http://mooneyspace.com/topic/8-prospective-vintage-mooney-buyers/?hl=hartzel

[bonal]

Lots to cover, first off thanks for your service in the USMC as for your training I bought a C150 and got my PPL then purchased my Converted M20D by the time I did I had over 200 hours so keep flying and adding to your experience. as for the carb ice its a non issue normal procedure for icing apply and I have only had a couple of times when I needed carb heat which worked fine. As for space you might be ok with the short body based on your indicated dimensions. For your budget I think you will have a lot better luck finding a nice C than a less so E or F.

Your desired flight plan to Texas will be no problem I have made the trip from norther CA to Boulder city in under 4hrs and that's over half way to TX. Flying down the Central Valley is much easier than direct over the Sierras and does not add much time since you don't need to climb as high you spend more time at cruise.

Also being in Byron you are very close to 2 of the best Mooney shops in the country LakeAero and Top gun.

Good luck with your training and welcome.

[rbridges]

your budget and needs are making it a little tight.  For 4 people, I'd recommend not going with a C or E.  You can probably find a few F models in the 40 range, but I'm sure you're well aware that you get what you pay for.  You could find a nice C in the 40s, but I would think that an F or maybe an E in that range may be lacking something.  

 

I would highly recommend getting your instrument rating unless you have a job that has lots of time flexibility.  Flying TX to CA, you will see several weather systems along the way and an IR would give you more tools to deal with it.  I would also try to find something with a cert GPS and autopilot if possible.  They cost a fortune to install and are much cheaper to buy already in the plane.

[Jeff_S]

I think you need to look at a J-model as your starting point. Even if you have to expand your purchase envelope into the $80K range, you are buying a very solid and trusted airplane which will give you more interior room and the best efficiency of any aircraft ever made.  The C & E models will probably be too tight if you truly want to take four adults. Even a J is pushing this in my view, but it's manageable as long as you don't try to make your flight legs too long.

[Hank]

My C is good for 4 people on short flights, after 90 minutes the folks in back start fidgeting if not complaining. The previous owner flew 4 from WV to FL and back. Baggage will be small and light.

There's an excellent thread from George Perry a few years ago about what to look for when shopping for a vintage Mooney. Use the Search box.

Welcome to the fun!!

[rbridges]

My C is good for 4 people on short flights, after 90 minutes the folks in back start fidgeting if not complaining. The previous owner flew 4 from WV to FL and back. Baggage will be small and light.

There's an excellent thread from George Perry a few years ago about what to look for when shopping for a vintage Mooney. Use the Search box.

Welcome to the fun!!

 

it's post #4.  I forgot about it, but it covers a lot of bases.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Sherm!

You will have to have a lot of things going the right way to fit a family of four in a C (short body).

If you like driving a firebird with two in the back....you are good to go!

If you cruise across Texas and your choice of wheels is more like a Tahoe, Mooney has the R (long body).

Many here find the J (mid body) to be just right....

Driving around in a firebird helps provide the cash for a bigger bird.

Best regards,

[bonal]

I think you need to look at a J-model as your starting point. Even if you have to expand your purchase envelope into the $80K range, you are buying a very solid and trusted airplane which will give you more interior room and the best efficiency of any aircraft ever made.  The C & E models will probably be too tight if you truly want to take four adults. Even a J is pushing this in my view, but it's manageable as long as you don't try to make your flight legs too long.

Don't mean to be a butt head but the OP pointed out his budget is in the 40 AMU range and yes I think it funny when someone that can afford an Ovation 3 suggests an airplane that may seem inexpensive to the Ovaition guy but is clearly out of the indicated budget.

I would like to have a 911 GT3 as well but live in the real world of what I can afford. Yes the short body is less accommodating than a long body but honestly how often would you have four adults I have flown several long trips with 3 adults with no problem at all.

Sorry if I sound a bit peeved but some time people with lots of money forget there are those of us that are only just able to afford this hobby.

[ArtVandelay]

I've been watching Wx with idea of flying to California, there seems to be a constant Airmet for SW US for low level turbulence, I gotta think that a turbo is required unless as already mentioned you have lots flexibility in your schedule

[bonal]

A couple of guys did it in a cessna 150 are you saying a 150 can make it and a m20c or e can't. Perhaps you high power flight guys need to get back to your roots

[M20F]

I would really reccomend the F versus a C if the intent is ever to have more than two people in the plane on a semi-regular basis. The price difference isn't really that much and if it came down to suffering another year with the 150 to stretch to buying an F you will be happier for it. I reccomend a 67 as it is in my opinion the last best year on the M20F with the flush rivets, manual gear, hydraulic flaps, and generally highest useful loads. 68's have a lot of cheap short cuts as the company was hurting, not to say they aren't safe but imho the 67's are the best.

While 4 cylinders are in theory cheaper than 6, the price on the wide deck cylinders is $2K+. A friend topped his 320 for less than it cost me to do the 4 by a fair amount. Otherwise I find it an economical plane in terms of upkeep. After buying mine I rebuilt the injection, mags, new starter, new alternator, new sock discs, and a bunch of other minor stuff for about $10K. Where you have to really watch is the prop/hub and engine as either of those two is going to sting, odds are at $40K you will be buying one or the other or both within first five years of ownership. You should plan probably $5k in immediate fixes unless you buy a cherry one and at $40k odds are it is going to need some work.

Being shorter you may need rudder peddle extensions, Mooney's are geat for tall people but shorter people sometimes have challenges reaching the peddles. That is more a try it out thing than anything else but if you have problems with the peddles the extensions aren't at expensive or hard to come by.

You will hate working on Mooneys and anyone who says you won't is a massochist or lying. The engine compartment sucks, the inspection panels suck, and pretty much everything else sucks to work on compared to say a Bonanza. All that being said still the best bang for your $$$ and I wouldn't trade mine for the world.

[Bob_Belville]

As you might be able to tell from the comments, we all have some prejudices. I have over 2500 hours pic in 2 '66E I've owned. So that's what I would recommend for your budget and missions. 

 

Seriously, everything else being equal, an F will cost a little more than an E which might be a little more than that higher than a C. Again, everything else being equal which in 50 year old planes will never be quite the case. Engines and up to date avionics are big ticket items. So is an autopilot. All three of those feature will be important when you're flying long cross countries IFR.

 

Cabin room. You should take someone here up on their offer to at least sit in a C/E and F. Js are out of your a stated budget -- if you see a J listed anywhere close to $40k you can be sure it will need an engine overhaul or other large cash infusions very soon. (Cs and Es are the same size inside, the F is 10" longer.) 

 

I am 5'9" but I am 220#. We have taken long trips with 3 large adults on board and 2 hour trips with 4. I do not think you would be unhappy with a nice E. The E is the fastest of the vintage Mooney with performance matched only by the J among the 4 cyl. models. It has the best short field and climb profiles. 

[M20F]

I am 5'9" but I am 220#. We have taken long trips with 3 large adults on board and 2 hour trips with 4. I do not think you would be unhappy with a nice E. The E is the fastest of the vintage Mooney with performance matched only by the J among the 4 cyl. models. It has the best short field and climb profiles. 

 

I am happy to sit in the front seat of a C/E on long trips as well, the back seat not so much :-)

[ShermAv8tor]

Thanks everyone for the great comments and the link, but good laughs too (Bonal I want a 911 GT3 also…LOL)  I used to own Firebirds, so now I know what I'm up against! LOL!

 

M20F - Good point on the cost of cylinders, will check that out….and yes I've heard the mooneys can be difficult or suck to work on, but I feel confident I can get things figured out, but I know there will be a learning curve for sure. 

 

JR I might have to take you up on your offer! I'm due to do my Xcountry's now, but the weather here since Thanksgiving just sucks this year, but man do we need the rain and boy are we getting it! The rain is more important than my selfish needs to fly….

 

I'm gonna call the guys at Lake Aero and pick their brains a little bit as well, but didnt realize another shop existed called Top Gun. Will check them out also. 

 

This is all good stuff, and helps me focus on the areas of concern. 

 

Another question is having a 3 bladed prop any more advantageous over the stock 2 blade? 

[ShermAv8tor]

I think you need to look at a J-model as your starting point. Even if you have to expand your purchase envelope into the $80K range, you are buying a very solid and trusted airplane which will give you more interior room and the best efficiency of any aircraft ever made.  The C & E models will probably be too tight if you truly want to take four adults. Even a J is pushing this in my view, but it's manageable as long as you don't try to make your flight legs too long.

Jeff I appreciate the feedback, but the reality is I cannot afford to spend 80K on an airplane, especially since my son will be starting college next fall, and who knows when that happens I might have to sell whatever I have at the time and downsize till college is done….hoping thtas not the case…..

[M20F]

and yes I've heard the mooneys can be difficult or suck to work on, but I feel confident I can get things figured out, but I know there will be a learning curve for sure. 

 

 

There isn't really any learning curve, more so just the trade off that comes with getting a really tight and awesome airplane.  I hate working on mine, isn't that it is hard to do it just is not very ergonomic to work on.

 

In regards to three bladed prop you will get all sorts of differing input on that.  From my perspective no real advantage and one huge disadvantage which is another prop blade which equals $$$ at some point.

[ShermAv8tor]

Great comment Bob - Thanks for the advice. 

 

And yes M20F, the pilot always gets the best seat in the house!

 

Gheez if I might need pedal extensions, my seat might have to be too close to the panel and controls….hmmmm…..interesting thoughts there too

 

I will be checking out an F model soon, but Yes I need to compare the inside "back seat feel" to the C/E. 

[carusoam]

The nice thing about the three blade is it's ability to climb.

There is an associated cost or two to go with that.

A couple of knots in cruise and a different vibration related to the odd ratio of blades to cylinders.

Enjoy using the search function above. You will love the amount of material that is available here...

Best regards,

-a-

[BigTex]

Sherman,

 

Make sure you keep in mind that the actual cost of a plane is one thing but the recurring expense is a completely different animal.  Make sure you have at least 20% of the purchase price set aside to fix all of the deferred maintenance items you'll find the first year.  Also, keep in mind, that you'll have insurance (north of $2K for a new pilot), annuals (~$2k) and monthly hangar rent(~$2000-$5000 Annually).  This is all before you put a single drop of gas in the plane.

 

If you don't have this level of disposable income, you might want to look at partnerships similar to what you're doing with your 150.

[cujet]

Bottom line, if you can maintain a Gulfstream, the Mooney is an absolute cinch, it would be child's play. There is nothing particularly difficult, complex or inaccessible on a Mooney. In fact, a well maintained Mooney won't consume much of your time each year. 

 

You will hear many pilots say "nothing before it's time". Meaning that you should not expect to be able to fly a Gulfstream GIV shortly after getting your private pilot's certificate. There are many steps required before you step into a very high performance aircraft. 

 

The 4 cylinder Mooney, while slightly faster than a typical Cessna Trainer (about 40 Kts faster in cruise), is still a single engine, piston powered, General Aviation aircraft. It's subject to the exact same rules and requirements and the same standards of certification. The Mooney is not a jet, and it's performance is not out of the realm of a well trained Private Pilot. A capable Private Pilot, with proper instruction in the Mooney will not have any difficulties in it's operation. 

 

Stepping up from a Cessna trainer to a Mooney is far less of a step up than, say, WW-II fighter pilots were required to perform. Even today's military pilots often move rapidly into aircraft that far outperform a Mooney. I simply don't want you to be dissuaded by the typical naysayers. 

[Bob_Belville]

I am happy to sit in the front seat of a C/E on long trips as well, the back seat not so much :-)

Well... here's way more than 600#s of pilots on a 4 hour flight to '13 SunNFun in my E, the 6 footer in the back claimed he had plenty room : Note: all Mooneys have essentially the same shoulder room, head room.

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKBNWcXxpuM

[bonal]

I went from my 150 into my mooney with no difficulty make sure you transition with an instructor that knows Mooney's. Top gun is at Stockton. I'm 5 10 and have to put my seat all the way forward to reach pedals leaving decent rear seat room. Imagine the view you see of a NASCAR driver with the wheel faily close to the chest and legs more stretched out. Once I'm leveled off I put it back a bit and it fits great until it's time to gear up for landing. As for working on a Mooney I have worked with my mechs doing so much that I have learned a ton. Compared to working on a modern car they are a piece of cake (not lying nor a masochist ) I've worked on under carriage replace exhaust carburetor intake system removed and reinstalled the entire engine pulled the prop replaced oil lines and hydrolic lines and is like any thing if you take your time it's fine. If you are an AP or IA I would still recommend using a shop that is Mooney savey cause like all types they have things that experience makes easy but not knowing can be difficult and expensive if you mess it up.