Want to buy: M20E with Johnson bar and Garmin 430

[wombat]

Hi, everyone.  I've been looking for several months for just the right plane and getting all my ducks in a row and am ready to buy.  I've got a couple of planes that I'm negotiating on already but thought someone here in Mooneyspace may have or know of a plane for sale that isn't listed anywhere yet.   If you do, please PM me or reply to the thread.

 

The Cessna 172's I've been renting just aren't cutting it any more, so as the topic says I want to buy an Mooney. After looking at my budget and mission, I think that a well equipped E series is the plane I need. Because I'm expecting to regularly fly 1.5 to 4 hour flights, often IFR, I'm only looking at planes that have a G430 or better and an autopilot. I could buy without those and install them, but as everybody has said, buying with those already installed is a significantly more cost effective decision.   For me, almost all other factors only impact the price and while I'm flexible on what the actual cost is, I'm sensitive to the value I'm getting.  In other words, I can spend more or less, but the plane has to be worth it.   Things like engine time and paint and interior are not requirements, but I know what it costs to get them done and will expect to pay appropriate to their status.

 

Some of the things I've done/read/considered are:

• Been using AOPA's VREF (http://www.aopa.org/members/vref/), which I think tends to underprice these planes, and Jimmy Garrison's Valuator. (http://www.vintagemooneygroup.com/M20EValuation.html) 
• Become familiar with many of the Mooney specific things I need to check in a pre-purchase inspection and have a good list of things to include, including LASAR's pre-buy guide and am expecting to spend about $1,500 to $2,000 on it. ( I don't think I can really justify a full annual as a pre-purchase inspection, although DaveL's recent experience (http://mooneyspace.com/topic/11834-just-learned-my-c-is-junk/) makes me nervous.  I live in the Pacific Northwest like he does, so his experience is very applicable.
• Read everything on this thread here on mooneyspace: http://mooneyspace.com/topic/8-prospective-vintage-mooney-buyers/?fromsearch=1
• Read what Aviation Consumer has to say: http://www.aviationconsumer.com/issues/36_7/usedaircraftguide/5572-1.html
• Been a member of MAPA for several months and been following along their e-mails and looking at current and past publications.
• Talked to several Mooney owners and have flown in a couple of them already. 
• Have some experience (about 150 hours) in equally fast or faster aircraft and my instrument and commercial tickets, so I'll be OK keeping up with the plane. 
• Have an instructor available that can teach in either his M20C or mine when I get it.
• Am on the wait list to get a local hangar.
• Read Ron Wanttaja's book "Airplane Ownership" (http://www.amazon.com/Airplane-Ownership-Ron-Wanttaja/dp/007145974X)
• Used many websites to find planes for sale:
  • http://www.globalplanesearch.com/
  • http://www.trade-a-plane.com/
  • http://www.controller.com/Default.aspx
  • http://www.aso.com/
  • http://www.aerotrader.com/
  • http://www.aircraftdealer.com/
  • http://www.barnstormers.com/
  • http://www.airplanemart.com/
  • http://www.lasar.com/
  • And of course regular google. 

 

If anyone knows of anything else I should do in preparation for purchasing a vintage Mooney, I'd be glad to hear it!

 

Clay Chase

[Rwsavory]

Sounds like you have done some good homework.  

 

Just a suggestion, but if you broaden your search to include the C model you will improve your chances of finding one that is equipped to your liking.  Getting the equipment you want, especially a good autopilot, will more than make up for the 20 horsepower difference.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Looks like you've covered most of the analytic research bases, and that's a great start.  

 

I suggest you keep in mind that the plane you seek is approaching a half-century old.   Condition is everything.   Each "E" model is unique at this point in time as a result of care, modifications and maintenance put in (or not) in past decades:  It is not like buying a used Honda Civic where statistical data are reliable guides to the fleet overall.

 

If the plane is a good one a thorough pre-buy inspection can be extended into an annual at little additional cost (and you'll get used to what airplane owners refer to as "little cost").  There is a slight advantage to you in getting that shop's signature into the logs which they will do if performing an annual inspection but probably won't if it is just a pre-buy.

 

I flew my "E" about 800 hours all over the US and enjoyed it thoroughly.   As Rwsavory suggests, a "C" is also a possibility.  With ~500 hours in my present "C" I say (at the risk of starting a LOP-like firestorm here on MS) that the "E" and the "C" perform pretty much the same in real-world flying and an excellent example of either would please you.

[chrisk]

I would urge flexibility on the Johnson bar.  The first Mooney I flew had a Johnson bar.  I certainly liked the simplicity and really wanted one when I bought a Mooney (M20F).  I also wanted a full Brittan autopilot, and an IFR GPS.  Well, I had trouble finding one to my liking and eventually ended up with a 231. 

 

Anyway, based on my experience, I'd prefer a plane with a Johnson bar.  But I am quite happy with the performance of the electric gear on my Mooney.

[rob]

I agree on the C comments. Wheels up to wheels down performance is very similar between a C and and E. And the C is easier to hot start and costs slightly less to maintain! Bias admitted!

[hobbit64]

Ok... I really wish I hadn't looked at the Lasar listings! 

I just lost an hour of my life drooling on my keyboard.

[Marauder]

Ok... I really wish I hadn't looked at the Lasar listings! 

I just lost an hour of my life drooling on my keyboard.

 

Indeed a major contributor to corrosion if the listing is read while in your Mooney.

[jrwilson]

_{It is so refreshing to see someone who has done the research and knows what they want; plus has more than enough experience and training to fly it safely...  Too often on this board you see brand new pilots with fresh ratings pontificating how they just got their bonus so they're going to go out and get a 231 or rocket, because the need a turbo.  No concept of maintence costs, insurance, or even their own inexperience, not even having a high performance endorsement or flying more than their rented 172...}   

 

_{This guy has time in similar aircraft and has a definitive plan for transition training, plus considering a johnson bar out of recognition of lower on-going maintenance costs.  Seems like a smart fellow who isn't going to make himself into a statistic like some who buy way outside their means.}

[wombat]

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

 

I'll look more closely at the C models, but I think that the extra HP, ram air and ability to run LOP* on the E if I choose to do so is worth a few AMU for me.  

 

For whoever posted the link about the one in Ohio, thanks, I hadn't looked closely enough at that one yet but I've talked to him now and it's right in there in terms of value.  It's currently my second-best option.     I don't know why you or someone else deleted it, but I'm glad I saw it.   That sort of "Look at this one!" message was what I was really hoping for.   I did get a message like that about a C in private messages and I'm still looking at it; I'll respond privately this weekend.

 

I'd love a turbo, but the additional expense just isn't worth it to me.   Each additional dollar gets harder to part with as I reach my budget limit and each additional dollar buys a little less speed than the one before it.

 

I've thought about having the pre-buy turn into an annual, but am concerned that if I have them do a full annual, I won't be able to afford a plane if the first one turns something up.   Perhaps what I can do is start with a pre-buy only, and since I plan on staying with the plane during the inspection, make a decision based on the status partway through to either turn it into a full annual or just button it up and rescind any offer I have out on the plane.

 

Clay Chase

 

 

* NOTE:   LOP operations requires appropriate engine monitoring, training and a willingness to take on some (un-measured) level of risk.  I think it's a personal choice.

[KSMooniac]

 

I've thought about having the pre-buy turn into an annual, but am concerned that if I have them do a full annual, I won't be able to afford a plane if the first one turns something up.   Perhaps what I can do is start with a pre-buy only, and since I plan on staying with the plane during the inspection, make a decision based on the status partway through to either turn it into a full annual or just button it up and rescind any offer I have out on the plane.

 

 

Any PPI should be preceded with a signed purchase agreement that spells out the terms.  Typically airworthiness (ie required) squawks are to be paid or rectified by the seller, and any optional or upgrade items and the inspection are paid by the buyer.  You could add a provision to turn the PPI into an annual (at the buyer's expense) if it looks like the transaction will go through.  That is the best course of action unless the current annual inspection is very, very recent.  Your fear about "won't be able to afford a plane if the first one turns something up" is *exactly* why you should have a thorough PPI and/or annual inspection.  Better to pay $1000 and find out that a plane is a turd and walk away than to find out 11 months later after you bought it that it is a turd, and now it is your turd!  

 

FWIW, I agree with your sentiments on the E over the C.  It will cost more to purchase a good one, but I too want the extra 20 hp and LOP capability.  The C can be a real bargain, though, and there is a very nice one for sale here right now.

[chrisk]

 

I've thought about having the pre-buy turn into an annual, but am concerned that if I have them do a full annual, I won't be able to afford a plane if the first one turns something up.   Perhaps what I can do is start with a pre-buy only, and since I plan on staying with the plane during the inspection, make a decision based on the status partway through to either turn it into a full annual or just button it up and rescind any offer I have out on the plane.

 

Clay Chase

 

 

* NOTE:   LOP operations requires appropriate engine monitoring, training and a willingness to take on some (un-measured) level of risk.  I think it's a personal choice.

As others have said. Its better to find out before you own the plane. And its really important that you take the plane to a Mooney expert for the PPI with annual.

[Ron McBride]

Clay

 

I am thinking about selling my 69F.  GNS 430W, GPSS, KX 155 with glideslope also. PM8000B intercom, Garmin 327 transponder mode c, 406 elt, Fuel scan 450, (connected to the 430)  EDM 700 engine monitor, oil pressure, and voltage.  Stec 30, gpss, heading, altitude hold, recent interior, glass.  less the a 100 hrs on a top overhaul,  ECI prop, Fuel controller overhauled, Alternator overhauled.  40:1 gear in the gear, elec flaps, modern 6 pac layout in the panel.

 

I have not decided on a price yet.

 

Ron

[rbridges]

Clay

 

I am thinking about selling my 69F.  GNS 430W, GPSS, KX 155 with glideslope also. PM8000B intercom, Garmin 327 transponder mode c, 406 elt, Fuel scan 450, (connected to the 430)  EDM 700 engine monitor, oil pressure, and voltage.  Stec 30, gpss, heading, altitude hold, recent interior, glass.  less the a 100 hrs on a top overhaul,  ECI prop, Fuel controller overhauled, Alternator overhauled.  40:1 gear in the gear, elec flaps, modern 6 pac layout in the panel.

 

I have not decided on a price yet.

 

Ron

 

not to change the OP's mind, but if the right F comes along, I would give it a look.  The extra 5 inches of rear seat leg room can be a blessing for backseat passengers.

[DaV8or]

Not much to add, I agree, consider an F and also I wouldn't be too adamant on the J-bar gear. Life with electric really isn't that bad and it is nicer to use on every flight. Also, add eBay to your list of places to look. Lots of people are using eBay now as a cheap alternative to TAP, or Barnstormers.

[TWinter]

I noticed no additional responses from the OP since the day he posted. I sent a PM asking his $ range...I love my E, but would really would like to consider a Rocket later down the road. No response back from the PM I sent regarding his budget. Maybe he has found something. Good luck!

[wombat]

Sorry for the delay in responding, everyone.  Insert complaints about work and relationships taking too much time here.  Plus I have logged 6.5 hours in rentals in the meantime and started on my seaplane training!  I also have set up an LLC to own the plane (Plane Partners, LLC) and gotten all of my finances ready so I can purchase instantly when the right deal comes knocking.

 

I've started looking into a purchase agreement that I can use to provide both the seller and myself a level of safety as we negotiate for any 'issues' that may turn up.  Thanks for bringing that up Scott.

 

My ideal price range is between $40k and $50k, which I had to raise from my initial hope of $25k to $35k from back when I hadn't decided on a Mooney.    I can go some higher than that but I would need it to not only be a great plane but a great deal as well for me to go outside of that primary range. The risk of a post-purchase major expense is something I would like to be prepared for.

 

I do get the message loud and clear that the C and F models would probably fit my needs nearly as well and I shouldn't categorically exclude them.  I'll scan listings for those models as well. 

 

Based on some of your messages here, I am solidifying my tactic with the pre-buy: I'll have the mechanic look for the same things as I've always been thinking.  But...  If the annual is more than a month or two old at some point near the end of the pre-buy I'll have him or her change to a 100Hr or annual, depending on if an IA is available.  Most of the work I'm asking to have done would be part of the inspection so while I'm sure it will raise the price of the inspection by a 1/2 AMU or so, that will allow me to escape at a lower cost if things turn out poorly, but still have the mechanic perform a full inspection and sign their name in the logbook without too much extra cost if things work out well.   It also allows full disclosure and negotiation for any airworthiness issues since it is an inspection.

 

I have not come across anyone who wasn't comfortable getting their plane to a outside mechanic for the pre-buy, or even a MSC, so that seems easy.

 

And also I think that if I list features in order of desirability to me that might help me refine my search a little better.

1. No corrosion (absolute must)

2. IFR capable (absolute must)

3. Garmin 430 or better and a second Nav/Com
4. 2 Axis Autopilot
5. Flown 40+ Hrs/year for the last couple of years at least, preferably SMOH.
6. Johnson bar
7. No AD on prop
8. Autopilot capable of flying approaches
9. E or F (I lust after +20HP, +2" MAP and LOP ops)
10. <1500 SMOH
11. Standard 6-pack ordering of instruments
12. No damage history
13. Paint in good condition
14. Fuel tanks in good condition
15. Speed mods
16. Interior in good condition

 

 

And in case anyone is in the Seattle area, I'm hoping to find a partner or two for this aircraft at either Boeing Field (BFI) or Renton (RNT).   If I could find a partner before a purchase was made, that would allow us to upgrade to a 231.  But chances of that are slim and I'm not willing to risk overspending and then being desperate for a partner or stuck in debt with an engine overhaul I wasn't expecting.

 

I have not posted the ones I'm interested in so far for a couple of reasons:

• Since the availability keeps shifting, in 2 months all of those links would be worthless.
• I would prefer not to post something negative about a specific plane and have the current owner see it and decide not to sell to me.
• I would prefer not to post something positive about a specific plane and have the current owner see it and raise their price.

I was thinking I could post a list of the planes on my 'short list' with no comments, just so people know which ones I'm looking at.  Would anyone be interested in seeing that?  Thanks everybody for your help; and if anyone has specific planes that they think I might be interested in, please feel free to let me know.   There are a lot of planes out there and I might have missed a good one.

 

Clay

[carusoam]

Clay,

You have a well thought out plan....

But...

Buying a nice plane can be a competitive process. Keep that in mind while posting. MS is an open community. There are many onlookers.

Just sayin',

-a-

[wombat]

carusoam:

 

You are right; I thought pretty hard before posting those price ranges and what I'm looking for.  That was also a reason I didn't state on why I hadn't posted the specific planes I'm looking at. I figured that with what I posted it was worth the risk of losing out on a plane I was interested in and if there was enough desire from the other members I'd let people know which planes I am looking at.  There is a pretty constant flow of aircraft in and out of the market, if someone else wants a specific plane more than me, well... they can have it and I'll take the next one.    I've seen quite a few planes come and go on the market since I started looking, including several that now that I know more and am ready, were better deals that what I see now.  

  

For those following along at home, I may be taking a flight to a <REDACTED FOR SECURITY REASONS> this weekend to look at a <REDACTED FOR SECURITY REASONS>, have it inspected on Monday and could possibly own it by Monday night.  

 

And for this one, I really would rather not tell the world at large which plane I'm looking at until after I make a decision.  

 

Clay

[ArtVandelay]

I wouldn't post that you are leaving this weekend either...if someone can find your home address, that is a open invitation to be robbed.

[larryb]

On the other hand maybe somebody on the board knows something important about the one you are interested in. Something not in the log books? Just sayin.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

Just be wise about it.

Keep in mind, I did not mean members here. There are many more people that have not joined, but are looking as well.

Humans are funny this way.

When you lock in on the choice, you can work with the seller to hold your place while you expose your hand. This would be a real indication of the market really opening up. It hasn't been this good in over five years.

Ovations appear to be in short supply, as well.

Good luck with the hunt.

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

DP

[Gunderbear]

I have a 1965 M20E, with Garmin 430W and King/B 135 GPS/Comm underneath.  It is IFR and only 200 Hours on the engine.  I bought it two years ago and had it completely gone through with Overhaul and new avionics.  It is a great plane and I really enjoy it, but I need a larger plane.  Annual was completed in March and the A/P would be happy to answer any questions you have on it.

 

Bill

bill@flaps-down.com

[wombat]

I turned the one I had been looking hardest at down because the engine had 43 years since last major overhaul and multiple years in a row without any flight.   It did have nearly 200 hours in the last few years, but I'm not confident enough in it to last long enough to be a good value.