I've just got here. First of all: thank you

[Aspiring_M20_Pilot]

Hello Folks,

 

First of all, thank you guys for maintaining this great forum. 

 

After flying basically rented planes, I'm considering buying an acft.

 

Although I've never flown one, there's this notion that Mooneys are great machines and for what I've been reading it appears to be true. Therefore, here I am, newcomer trying to learn from the vets.

 

Since this is my first post, I won't throw the zillion questions I have... just a few.

 

- I once heard that the first plane one buys should not be a Mooney. Is that true?  I understand that they are not as easy to fly as a Cessna or Piper. Is that the reason?

 

 

- Are Mooneys too expensive to operate? I understand that speed isn't cheap, but apparently, for the numbers I've pulled out of spec sheets, costs are not that alarming. Are there hidden Mooney money pits that doesn't show until you own one?

 

 

- Not counting that PiperPainter guy, who apparently has mastered all aspects of his M20, is it to hard for the average pilot to operate Mooneys on dirt or grass runways? Is the Mooney a paved-airport-aircraft? I understand that they roll real close to the ground and read about prop strikes resulting from bounces.

 

Thanks in advance

Ary, an Aspiring_M20_Pilot 

 

[carusoam]

Rent till you are ready....

Buy a plane that fits your economics and mission...

Upgrade like there's no tomorrow...

Don't rush, until you know what you want.

Know what a pre purchase inspection is about.

Maybe this advice fits only a few people in the general population. But it describes many around here....

Best regards and welcome aboard,

-a-

[rbridges]

I know the older mooneys work well on grass.  I believe the newer ones (heavier and longer) don't land on grass that much.  My C model was my first purchase.  I had around 150 hours when I purchased it.  My IA doesn't charge me any extra for my annuals.  Look out for corrosion and fuel leaks if you decide to purchase.  I get tagged for $$$ when my tanks developed a leak.  

[Bob_Belville]

Welcome to MS and the world of Mooniacs, Ary,

 

You should tell us a little about your flying experience but no, from my personal experience which includes 2500 hours in short body M20s there's no reason a low time pilot cannot learn to fly a Mooney and a well maintained grass strip is fine. I started flying a Mooney with about 50 hour TT. I based my first Mooney at NC52, a grass strip. 

 

I also has a prop strike last year... on the paved ramp of a paved airport. 

 

But Mooneys are more complicated than fixed gear, fixed prop planes and Mooney props are closer to the ground than most planes so you'll need a period of transition training and a respect for the prop clearance issue.

[PMcClure]

My first plane was a Mooney (F) and it was not that hard to learn and about 10 hours dual to transition from a C172. That is about what insurance required as well. I would land my F on grass but not my R. Finally, I think the Mooney is the most economical plane to fly, especially the older ones. The fuel burn is less per hour and the speed is faster. I used to rent the 172 to fly from B'ham to CLT. The Mooney is way cheaper than the C172. When considering cost, make sure you consider total fuel burn on the trip. Since the Mooney made the round trip in about 1-2 hours less than the C172 the savings in fuel and maintenance was a lot. Best of luck and welcome!

[Bob_Belville]

As a low time pilot you'll pay extra for insurance for a year or two but cost per mile, all in, if you find a M20C,E,F,J that has been well maintained you can have a Mooney for about what lesser planes cost to operate,

[pinerunner]

I've had my Mooney M20E for two years after being brought up in Cessna's and Pipers. It wasn't especially hard to learn to fly. I did go into it knowing I'd have to pay extra attention to airspeed.

 

If you're thinking hardcore bush flying you want a taildragger. Ruts tend to throw the weight forward and its hard on the nosegear. My dad rebuilt an older C182 and sold it to an Alaskan pilot who had wrecked it on a gravel bar on a river within a month. Even though its the same airframe there's a reason C 180's command such a high price.

 

On grass or gravel strips that are in so so shape I'd leave it to the Bonanza's that are famous for having rugged gear and are rated utility as I recall.

 

I haven't taken my older M20E into a grass strip. I'm thinking about it but I'll be picky about which strip. The thing I'd worry about most is some rut with the grass grown in making it invisible. Nose wheel  goes in and suddenly I'm at the controls of the world's most expensive lawnmower. I never want to know what that feels like. So I'll be picky about that grass strip. Mooneys do sit low. So they might be a bit quicker to throw stones back into the paint job on your belly if you're operating on a gravel strip. the gear are also pretty stiff; there's one airport I went into in Maine (Twitchell's) where I felt every seam in the runway. I hadn't noticed that when I took some duel there in their C172.

 

As long as you're not flying a crowd around or big loads the Mooney is the most cost effective cross-country machine you can get. It can get into shorter places than many people think but watch out for the rough stuff. 

[N601RX]

I think they are fine on short grass fields that are in decent condition.  Pay attention to airspeed, and have some predefined land/go around criteria and points picked out.  Here is a 1800' grass strip that I used while on vacation last year. I don't think that I used over half of it. 

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/10293-flew-the-mooney-into-north-captiva-island-for-a-long-weekend/

[aaronk25]

Landing is the hardest part of flying a mooney and the exactly reason it is such a fuel efficient fast airplane .......ITS SLIPPERY.

Airplanes are expensive to own, but if your prepared for that you will be fine.

As far as landing go practice landing it 100 times in nice weather and you will be in good shape.

The mooney flies similar to other planes once the wheels and flaps are down, maybe a touch more slippery.

[John Pleisse]

Yes, no and no.

[flyboy]

where are you located? I would think that there is someone here that would take you for a ride so that you could get a feel for the airplane and what it can do.

[Guest]

Welcome and all the points above are valid ones.  I bought a M20C last summer after spending around 130 hours in a Piper Cherokee.  Big difference in performance and Mooneys sure are a great aircraft.  My plane was in good condition at a very good price.  Although I don't regret it, there is more plane than I need.  For instance I am VFR with no intention or need to go IFR, and I like to fly the old fashoned way using GPS and VORs only as back-up.  Out here on the prairie that is no problem.  Without further rambling the message I'm trying to convey here is be sure to buy the right plane for you and the home field.  If that is a Mooney then go for it.

[Z W]

Mooneys make a fine first plane.  They will keep you from developing bad habits, like landing 10 knots too fast.

 

My mechanic has said that because everything is so tight and compact (i.e. efficient) on the Mooney, it does take some extra shop hours compared to some other planes, because they're harder to work on.  I think this difference is negligible.  Fuel wise, they are the most economical choice out there, which saves far more money than any extra maintenance costs.

 

Short bodies (M20C, M20E) are OK on grass strips.  They are much lighter on the nose.  I have not taken my mid-body K model offroading yet, with its heavy nose and inner gear doors that sit 2 inches off the ground.  I might someday, but honestly, I find it's pretty easy to get everywhere in the country from a 3k+ paved runway.  Even outdoor activities like camping are pretty easy, although you may need a rental car.  And any plane that's good for bush work is so slow, I couldn't hardly stand to fly it to the unimproved strip.  

[piperpainter]

 

Hello Folks,

 

First of all, thank you guys for maintaining this great forum. 

 

After flying basically rented planes, I'm considering buying an acft.

 

Although I've never flown one, there's this notion that Mooneys are great machines and for what I've been reading it appears to be true. Therefore, here I am, newcomer trying to learn from the vets.

 

Since this is my first post, I won't throw the zillion questions I have... just a few.

 

- I once heard that the first plane one buys should not be a Mooney. Is that true?  I understand that they are not as easy to fly as a Cessna or Piper. Is that the reason?

 

 

- Are Mooneys too expensive to operate? I understand that speed isn't cheap, but apparently, for the numbers I've pulled out of spec sheets, costs are not that alarming. Are there hidden Mooney money pits that doesn't show until you own one?

 

 

- Not counting that PiperPainter guy, who apparently has mastered all aspects of his M20, is it to hard for the average pilot to operate Mooneys on dirt or grass runways? Is the Mooney a paved-airport-aircraft? I understand that they roll real close to the ground and read about prop strikes resulting from bounces.

 

Thanks in advance

Ary, an Aspiring_M20_Pilot 

 

I love the exemption status i've been getting! Y'all can do just what I do. Practice makes perfect!!    

[Awful_Charlie]

One of my frequent haunts is a grass strip, and it is normally billiard table smooth.  However, it does suffer after prolonged rain, and when it is like this then the front wheel may sink in so far as to make in un-taxiable - it will then be time to get the tractor out and tow.  The front wheel only sinks in by about half the sidewall height, but when it gets there, even full throttle isn't going to move it. The mains sink in less, but overall, it doesn't like the soft stuff anywhere near as well as many others

[scottfromiowa]

I love the exemption status i've been getting! Y'all can do just what I do. Practice makes perfect!! 

Ummmmm....Didn't I see you land on a ledge...yes, a ledge on the side of a friggin' mountain and then leave with a war cry of exaltation? My balls are tiny tin marbles compared to yours PP...

AND NOT just ANYBODY can do what you do well in your Mooney.

signed...ardent fan

[scottfromiowa]

Yes, no and no.

My answers to questions. No, No, No, Yes, Yes*, Yes.

*If they are short, unimproved, on a ledge/side of a mountain, have water at each end, have trees at both ends...Otherwise, well maintained grass strips of decent length are no big deal in a Mooney.

[Hank]

A Mooney can be a great first plane if:

• you have a Mooney-experienced CFI
• you can [learn to] fly with precision, i.e., fly downwind at constant altitude and 90 MPH; fly base at 80 MPH slowing to 70 at the numbers, not 84 on base and not 78, either.
• land at grass strips in good condition [not necessarily "billiard table" quality]. I visit a 2000' strip, open to the south over soccer fields, obstructed to the north by a cement plant's gravel pile, I just don't go in or out of there with more than two people and half tanks.
• you have good judgment and decision making skills.

If you would rather fly with less precision, a more forgiving steed will be more appropriate. Suggest looking up the "Rookie Mistakes" thread . . .

 

Hope everything goes well for you!

[Aspiring_M20_Pilot]

Thank you for the warm welcome, guys.

 

Many, many useful answers there.

 

So far, I've amassed this:

- Mooneys can make a fine first plane. They're not too hard to learn, but one should do a proper transition, pay close attention to airspeed and prop clearance - precision flying;

- Regarding operational costs, they are a good choice as low fuel burn compensates the extra shop hours needed when servicing. However, corrosion and fuel leaks may be an issue - pre purchase should be done carefully.

- Older Mooneys work better on well maintained grass runways than newer ones (heavier and longer).

 

 

Best regards and welcome aboard,

(...) Know what a pre purchase inspection is about.

Thanks carusoam. Other than corrosion and leaks, any common issues one should be alert to?

 

 

(...) I get tagged for $$$ when my tanks developed a leak.  

Just to get a rough notion, how much $$$ would that be? I know it depends on every event, but hypothetically...

 

 

Welcome to MS and the world of Mooniacs, Ary,

(...)I also has a prop strike last year... on the paved ramp of a paved airport. 

Thanks Bob_Belville. Was it a depression? FDO? Would you mind telling me about? I've got really curious... specially about how much money one spends on a event like that.

 

 

My first plane was a Mooney (F) and it was not that hard to learn (...)

Best of luck and welcome!

Thanks PMcClure. That's great info.

 

 

If you're thinking hardcore bush flying you want a taildragger (...) As long as you're not flying a crowd around or big loads the Mooney is the most cost effective cross-country machine you can get.

Bush flying isn't my thing. The Mooney idea came up so, in the future, family could accompany me more. A Bonanza could be an option but, so far, M20 has my attention.

 

 

(...)  I don't think that I used over half of it. 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/10293-flew-the-mooney-into-north-captiva-island-for-a-long-weekend/

Great piece of info, N601RX. Not only it is a great vacation suggestion, but i t perfectly illustrates the grass strip issue.

 

 

Airplanes are expensive to own, but if your prepared for that you will be fine.

OK. but, in your opinion, the Mooneys are more expensive than a C182 or BE35 to operate and maintain?

 

 

Yes, no and no.

Hi N4352H. Apparently you're also an upholder of the "a Mooney should not be the first plane one buys". Would you mind sharing a little more on the subject?

 

 

where are you located? I would think that there is someone here that would take you for a ride so that you could get a feel for the airplane and what it can do.

In May, for two weeks, I'll be taking my wife and kid to the parks in Orlando, FL, what opens a good window of opportunity. If someone has intel on clubs in the area that operate M20, where I could get some dual time, it would be nice.  Or in the event of some member living in the area, who's willing to chat personally, that would be great.

 

 

 

 

KG1, on 11 Mar 2014 - 2:36 PM, said:

(...) Although I don't regret it, there is more plane than I need.(..) be sure to buy the right plane for you and the home field.

Excellent argument KG1. Would you mind pointing a downside of having chosen a Mooney? if I understood you well, considering that Mooneys operate not too different from the alternatives regarding $$/mile flown, I don't see the immediate con of operating a Mooney on prevailing VMC. Unless the con would be less flexible site choices in contrast with a more style closer to bushflying.

 

 

Zane Williams, on 11 Mar 2014 - 3:23 PM, said:

(..) And any plane that's good for bush work is so slow, I couldn't hardly stand to fly it to the unimproved strip.  

That's one of the reasons I'm considering a Mooney. It's fast and can accommodate the family. If I fill like bushflying, I could rent.

 

 

piperpainter, on 11 Mar 2014 - 3:44 PM, said:

I love the exemption status i've been getting! Y'all can do just what I do. Practice makes perfect!!  

Sure, I agree, but I'm not aware of how many lifetimes of practice it takes to balance gift.  :-)

 

 

Awful_Charlie, on 11 Mar 2014 - 4:37 PM, said:

One of my frequent haunts is a grass strip, (...) after prolonged rain, (...) is un-taxiable(...)

it doesn't like the soft stuff anywhere near as well as many others

Thanks Awful_Charlie. Although, I mainly operate paved runways. This is a precious info.

 

 

scottfromiowa, on 12 Mar 2014 - 12:20 AM, said:

My answers to questions. No, No, No, Yes, Yes*, Yes.

 

*If they are short, unimproved, on a ledge/side of a mountain, have water at each end, have trees at both ends...Otherwise, well maintained grass strips of decent length are no big deal in a Mooney.

Thank you.

 

 

 

Hank, on 12 Mar 2014 - 01:45 AM, said:

(...) If you would rather fly with less precision, a more forgiving steed will be more appropriate. Suggest looking up the "Rookie Mistakes" thread . . .

 

Hope everything goes well for you!

Thanks Hank. I'll check the rookie mistakes thread.

 

 

Does anyone have an approximate figure of the average overhaul (TBO)? I understand it should vary with the model, so, if possible, please specify type.

 

Regards

Ary

 

PS: since there is a limit and I could not quote more messages in my reply, I used a gray color to differentiate.

 

[Marauder]

Just to chime in on the "family" side of this. I bought my first (and only) airplane, an F model in 1991, 10 months after my daughter was born. My son came along in the late 90s and it was until 2008 or so when weight & balance started playing into the equation. Since my wife and I both work, the need for a plane to take the whole family on vacation required borrowing or renting a more weight capable plane for those trips (1 or 2 a year).

Fast forward, I've lost 70+ pounds, my daughter is out of the house leaving just my son and wife flying with me. I'm back in the W&B envelope with almost anything my wife could pack in the plane. Son goes off to college soon and this will leave us with the perfect retirement airplane.

If you plan on using your plane more extensively for vacationing, just keep this growth of your family in the equation. You may be better suited for a large plane to start with.

Sent using Tapatalk

[Bob_Belville]

Bob_Belville, on 11 Mar 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

Welcome to MS and the world of Mooniacs, Ary,

(...)I also has a prop strike last year... on the paved ramp of a paved airport. 

Thanks Bob_Belville. Was it a depression? FDO? Would you mind telling me about? I've got really curious... specially about how much money one spends on a event like that.

 

Here's 11 pages of my prop strike adventure.

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/10273-prop-strike-today-october-8-2013/

 

It took 3 months, largely because I was 900 miles away from the scene of the crime. The insurance company paid about 25k to repair prop, tear down, inspect engine and to R&R. Except for the loss of the plane for 3 months and the grief of dealing with the details I came out pretty well, even ahead, in that while the engine was torn down we replaced the cam and lifters which had corrosion and I only had to pay for the parts.

 

I found out the insurance is concerned to get everything done properly and there's typically no deductible and probably no effect on your future premiums for such an event.

 

The one caution which you'll see repeated on MS if you look around: Do not under insure the hull value of your plane. A few hundred dollars in premiums could be very expensive. If you do you run the risk that the insurance company might find it less expensive to pay you off for the policy hull value and take your plane for salvage. E.g., if I had left my hull at $60k after I spent $50k on the panel, the insurance company, faced with a $25k repair could have given me the $60k I was insured for and sold or parted out the plane. But since I had $100k hull their best loss was to repair. It's a cold world out there.

[jlunseth]

And house.  And car.  And another car.  And paycheck.  All can be downsized at the appropriate time.  I am at the point where I am beginning to think about it.

 

I, however, bought my aircraft with the "pilot pays" rule in mind.  So anything that can be stuffed in the aircraft the pilot gets to pay for.  When you get all the passengers to the Bahamas and have paid for the plane, fuel, etc., the next thing is "Hey Dad, let's go scuba diving" and the pilot gets to pay for that also, and the lodging, and the food, and the jetskis or whatever else they decide they want to do.  My way of dealing with that was to buy an aircraft into which I cannot jam 6 or 8 people, for whom I would then have to pay.  It has made the whole experience much more affordable.

[mooneygirl]

Welcome to the Mooney Family. I think I had about 100 hours when I purchased my E model.  I would recommend a Mooney-specific CFI as well as taking the MAPA pilot proficiency course.

The Mooney is one of the most stable aircraft you will ever fly.  But the laminar airfoil wants to fly, so as others have stated speed-control is paramount.  I believe the older models are great platforms for learning IFR.

You should join our professional association MAPA [http://www.Mooneypilots.com] and perhaps consider coming to MAPA Homecoming at Kerrville Texas, home of Mooney April 10-12.  The festivities begin with a Thursday evening premiere of Boots on the Ground, a documentary my husband and I produced about the workers at the factory.  You will as well have an opportunity to talk with Bill Wheat and Mike Miles, both test pilots for Mooney. They have forgotten more about flying a Mooney than any of us will ever know.  The rest of the events include Mooney specific training opportunities, factory tours, and a Saturday night banquet featuring Jack Weigand who set the Guiness Book of World Records for his around-the-world flight in a Mooney Ovation.

 

Welcome to the flock who flies FAST.

 

[carusoam]

Pre-PI...

Most are well cared for but the low cost bargain you may be looking at may have been skipped...

Rely on the PPI to know best what you are buying...

The expensive things you can look for yourself...

1 ) leaking fuel tanks. (Kind of expensive)

2 ) some engines that have sat for extended periods. (Really expensive)

3 ) old style rubber biscuits... (Expensive)

4 ) wicked old radios... (Somewhat expensive)

Learn to work with your mechanic. If you like this kind of fun. It's good for you.

I bought a C within months of my second child being born. Now or never may have been on my mind. They really fill the back seats...

Had it for ten years. Low cost transportation that keeps the family together!

Best regards,

-a-

[AlanA]

A J model was my first plane with fresh license years ago.  I have never regretted it.  The first year the insurance is a little stiff but after 6 months or so once you get your required hours in you can cancel your policy, get a refund for the remaining months, and then get a new policy which is rated with your Mooney time.  So really the insurance is only expensive for the first six months or so.