teethdoc Posted February 6, 2014 Report Posted February 6, 2014 I read in that same email, from Kelly M., that Porsche actually withdrew the engines' Type Certificate. Which means they not even certified engines anymore. What a disaster. But yet for some strange reason I so want to buy these. Quote
KSMooniac Posted February 6, 2014 Report Posted February 6, 2014 The only instance where I can see such a purchase making sense is for someone that has the ability and desire to re-develop an STC for their own edification to install a 6-cyl aircraft engine and get a corresponding gross weight increase to make the airframes useable. The cost of the STC work will be substantial, as well as the outright cost of whichever engine is chosen, and the market for such an STC can be counted on one hand so there realistically is no payback for the effort, beyond getting an otherwise good airframe at a substantial discount. I don't have a parts manual for the L, but surely some of the airframe parts are common to other Mooneys in which case maybe the landing gear and control surfaces have some value in the salvage market. The avionics are not compelling. The seats have some value. There might be $30k worth of salvage in each plane, but I doubt it, and it would take a long time to get that much out of them IMO. Who knows how long the planes have been sitting in FL and what the corrosion status is also. If I were retired and had cash to play with, I would do something like such a conversion in a heartbeat, and sell one of the airframes. Figure several hundred hours of engineering time, maybe 200 hours of conversion labor, and perhaps $80k or more for an engine and prop and you end up with a unique Mooney worth perhaps $120k, assuming you can get a GW increase to 3200 or 3368 lbs. There sure are nice and unique airframes, but the first-gen Ovations are getting awfully close to such a price so this idea really doesn't make any economic sense. Still, I hate to see nice airframes go to waste... Actually, it would make more sense (or perhaps a less-bad idea!) for someone to grab these and use the airframes for a Deltahawk Diesel STC development... Quote
KSMooniac Posted February 6, 2014 Report Posted February 6, 2014 Scott, Agreed entirely, but how do the proposed amendments to Part 23 Appendix G affect your analysis? Jim I doubt any upcoming changes would make an engine swap any easier or more feasible, unfortunately. For installing an AOA indicator (good news on that front today in fact) or hopefully an autopilot or PFD, it should help tremendously. Quote
KSMooniac Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 I don't read anything at first glance in App G that allows things such as engine changes, but that doesn't mean they'd be prohibited either I suppose. The biggest issue is that they're seeming to limit the proposed Primary Non-Commercial category to single engine planes with <61 knot stall speed (same as today) BUT with a MGW of 2700 lbs and normally-aspirated engines. That wipes out all of the Mooneys except for the A/B/C, E and G as far as I can tell. They should bump that limit up to 4000 or 4100 lbs and include turbos to really make this help the industry! If they would broaden the eligible airframes, this will be a huge boon to the industry. For <$10k we could install a modern PFD & autopilot with a good track record from the E-AB world. I'd be in for that next week, in addition to an AOA, MFD with cheap updates, turbo-normalizer, etc. etc. etc. Being able to do the condition inspection myself would be nice as well. I don't think they ever intended engine swaps to be accomplished under this umbrella, but surely some folks will try it. Quote
aviatoreb Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 I doubt any upcoming changes would make an engine swap any easier or more feasible, unfortunately. For installing an AOA indicator (good news on that front today in fact) or hopefully an autopilot or PFD, it should help tremendously. That's IT! Let's install an AOA on these birds and call it a day. Quote
carusoam Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 Makes a nice wing and tail feathers for a super breezy! -a- Quote
aviatoreb Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 I don't read anything at first glance in App G that allows things such as engine changes, but that doesn't mean they'd be prohibited either I suppose. The biggest issue is that they're seeming to limit the proposed Primary Non-Commercial category to single engine planes with <61 knot stall speed (same as today) BUT with a MGW of 2700 lbs and normally-aspirated engines. That wipes out all of the Mooneys except for the A/B/C, E and G as far as I can tell. They should bump that limit up to 4000 or 4100 lbs and include turbos to really make this help the industry! If they would broaden the eligible airframes, this will be a huge boon to the industry. For <$10k we could install a modern PFD & autopilot with a good track record from the E-AB world. I'd be in for that next week, in addition to an AOA, MFD with cheap updates, turbo-normalizer, etc. etc. etc. Being able to do the condition inspection myself would be nice as well. I don't think they ever intended engine swaps to be accomplished under this umbrella, but surely some folks will try it. Bugger - I didnt see the weight limit - turbo limit either. Bet if those rules come out like that then you E owners would see a jump in the resale value of E's. Quote
aviatoreb Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 What happened to the rocket engineering liquid rocket conversion? That used to be available to porche mooney's. Quote
KSMooniac Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 Rocket won't sell/do conversions on Mooneys any longer...they're just supporting the existing fleet. You might choke on the price of that TSIOL-550 nowadays anyway... Quote
jetdriven Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 Evidently the enigne is still airworthy as long as it meets its Type Design. see this info. http://www.askbob.aero/node/458 more info about the lawsuit https://casetext.com/case/pfm-air-inc-v-dr-ing-hc-f-porsche-ag/ Quote
aviatoreb Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 Rocket won't sell/do conversions on Mooneys any longer...they're just supporting the existing fleet. You might choke on the price of that TSIOL-550 nowadays anyway... Yes, I am sure I would choke on the price of such a conversion - I wasn't asking because I would actually doing it - we are having sort of a fun theoretical what if discussion here. I am sure that if rocket would do it - then using their existing STC would be the cheapest route to re-engine these airplanes. Even at a starting price of $100k or so for a TSIOL550 alone (best I could tell from a little browsing), not including install or STC. Interestingly, it seems that the big consumer of the TSIO550L which was Ram for a Cessna414A conversion also abandoned the idea. http://www.ramaircraft.com/Aircraft-Engine-Upgrade-Packages/Performance/414A-Series-V-Performance/SM044C4-414A-Series-V-Performance.htm And the Cessna scuddle is that some converted airplanes later converted back. Apparently even Rutan was testing the concept in his airplanes and then abandoned it because the liquid cooled engines (IOL-200) were not working as he wished. That is pretty damning right there - if anyone could have gotten it to work and work well it would have been Rutan. http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2002/July/1/Airframe-and-Powerplant-(6).aspx Too bad, because a modern car-like airplane engine in my imagination would be a liquid cooled fadec continental. I can't imagine why they couldn't get it to work. I was just last month at the Canadian air museum looking at all the lovely liquid cooled engines on WWII airplanes like the b24, etc. This is not new technology. Quote
N601RX Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 Out of curiosity I looked up the valve spring AD on these engines. It requires replacing them every 500 hrs. I wander how many have had the tach and hobbs accidentally quit working for most of the year? Quote
jwilkins Posted February 7, 2014 Report Posted February 7, 2014 The last time I was at Dugosh a few years ago they showed me the original PFM prototype (minus the engine) in a back room. Now it's minus one gear door that I needed, too. Except for the missing engine the airframe looked pretty complete. This is significant in Mooney's history as the PFM partnership was, allegedly, was how Mooney funded the long body development. However, it was a tad slow, the gearbox had reliability issues, and the payload suffered from the engine / gearbox weight. As I remember, AOPA bought, or at least flew, a PFM for some time. I remember they really liked the single lever power control. If Porsche had stuck it out and refined the concept instead of bailing on it, we might all have this option today. Great concept, but, as with many new products, the first iteration needed evolutionary improvement. Porsche bailed rather than working through the design refinements Jim Quote
Greg_D Posted February 11, 2014 Report Posted February 11, 2014 One of these flew into my home airport a few months ago and I snapped a picture of it on the ramp. The paint and interior looked horrible, but it had the original engine. The engine was still warm when I took the picture, so I just missed the owner/pilot. I wish I could have talked to him and gotten the story on the plane. Quote
Greg_D Posted February 11, 2014 Report Posted February 11, 2014 Here's one for sale! See! It exists - I have sighted the White Whale! http://www.aso.com/listings/spec/ViewAd.aspx?id=144120&listingType=true&IsInternal=True&pagingNo=1&searchId=9756259&dealerid= And he's claiming it will do 260 knots in the posted ad! Quote
phecksel Posted February 11, 2014 Report Posted February 11, 2014 Coy and Tim Coons were partners at some point in Mod Works. Both have shown less than stellar ethics. No first hand knowledge of Coy's misdeeds but the internet is full of them. Tim Coons I have first hand knowledge of. Tim Coons is a crook, he and his company ripped me and my insurance company off. I heard a lot about Coy and his business. My first hand experience with Tim was good. Not a fan of companies that intentionally fraud customers Quote
aviatoreb Posted February 11, 2014 Report Posted February 11, 2014 And he's claiming it will do 260 knots in the posted ad! I know - that's turbine speeds - can it be true? Quote
carusoam Posted February 11, 2014 Report Posted February 11, 2014 Doesn't seem to have valid data in the description... The HSI with alt hold seemed like a rush job to get the post going. An O can run 175+ kts. I wouldn't expect that the Porsche engine (240 hp?) would perform as well as the 310 hp O... How fast is a TBM 750? Best regards, -a- Quote
XxOakley Posted April 12, 2014 Report Posted April 12, 2014 I replied to the add on controller just to see what was up and was told that they are two planes from a wealthy European looking for a quick sale... I call BS. One has a Swiss flag on the tail and what looks to be a temporary tail number and the other does not... Also both say engines have 70hour since new... Seems fishy... If they were $20k for the pair it would be interesting, fly one for the time remaining, then when it's up, fly the other and keep the first for parts... Losing $20k in 2-3 years of flying seems par for the course.... Quote
Urs_Wildermuth Posted April 12, 2014 Report Posted April 12, 2014 Somehow these 2 cells look like the perfect testbeds to go for a Diesel conversion. SMA or Thielert proof of concept to be later implemented into the current cells. Diesel is a huge issue due to the fuel price/availability particularly in Europe. Quote
zerotact Posted June 20, 2014 Report Posted June 20, 2014 This is a interesting one! More to the story for a pair of only 7-9??, non converted M20L models left, to be sold together. Are they being sold to close out the lawsuit that a couple owners had going with Porsche? Sell them cheap to settle or prove low value? After Modwerks was destroyed, about 6 years ago, one non converted "L" was for sale with 3 extra engines for $100K. The guy got them from Tim Coons at Modwerks and was reselling the package. Did some research at the time. The engines came from planes that were destroyed from the storm that were in for conversions at the time, but not returned to Porsche to be destroyed yet. The plane N911GT was owned by Tim Coons at the time and used as a parts runner. Well, two of the engines went to Australia for $25K each and the plane was made available with one spare motor for $70K. The plane sold and then popped up at OSH last year and was crated and shipped out of the US. Can not find article with details. The two big issues are the 500 hr valve spring replacement and also the lack of parts availability. Since the engine is a modified Porsche 911 engine, some parts are EZ to have made by the OEM parts manufacturer. A third issue is finding a A&P that has been trained to overhaul or service that engine. To my knowledge their is only one person trained by the Porsche Factory and approved to overhaul that engine. From my personal experience he is very arrogant & expensive and would love the opportunity for an "open ticket" work order for an overhaul. Going from memory, about 6 years ago there were 11 non converted PFM's, with 9 in the US and 2 in Australia. One crashed last year in Scottsdale and N911GT was shipped out of the country. So no more than 7 non converted PFM's exist in the US. Very sad that the number is just going down to Zero! I also remember one having "experimental" status. How, I am not sure. The value in my opinion would be very large if these 2 could be converted to experimental. Has anyone called the seller yet to get some info? May be interesting. If anyone has called, please share. I have kept my eye on this as well, 2 of them appear to be owned by mooney, 26-0001 N20XL was listed as experimental in 1993 with an IO-550 26-0037 N156MP was listed as experimental in 2005 with a TIO-540 I can come up with no great plan on what to do with these two birds other than buy them, part out the red one, to offset the cost, then use the blue one until I run out of parts. Then slap another power plant into it and turn it to experimantal. Quote
mike_elliott Posted June 20, 2014 Report Posted June 20, 2014 Then slap another power plant into it and turn it to experimantal. Im not sure you can even do that. You have to build 51% of the plane for it to be experimental. They, along with a lot of planes if GA doesn't turn around, will make fine yard ornaments, however. Quote
Bravoman Posted June 21, 2014 Report Posted June 21, 2014 The moral of the story is that's what you get when you let a German do an Americans job! 1 Quote
scottfromiowa Posted June 21, 2014 Report Posted June 21, 2014 The moral of the story is that's what you get when you let a German do an Americans job! The opposite of "Likes This"... Quote
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