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My new panel is finally complete! I chose a G3X, 750XI, JPI 930, 355 and GFC-500. Carl at Sebastian Communications in Merritt Island did a great job. He really stands behind his work. I highly recommend them. I am still in the wow stage, I can't believe how great all the new stuff works . Learning to use everything was kind of a steep curve at first and I still have a ways to go until I am comfortable with all the capabilities. Putting Dad's signature on the panel finished it for me. I want to sell all of the original equipment. Everything works and is in great shape, my plane is an 84 model with 2300 total time. I tried to post a add in the classified avionics section but was unable to. What do I have to do to use the classified? I made a donation still no luck. Thanks

My 17 year old son painted me a picture for Father’s Day. Nice job kiddo!!! I guess he’s not always playing on his phone.

I just went through this. Three years ago I purchased a low time '94 J that the previous owner had upgraded with an Aspen PFD and GNS 430W. It has a KAP 150 autopilot and KX 165 and vacuum gyro for the autopilot. I added a GTX 345 for ADS-B In/Out. I figured it had sufficient IFR capabilities, attitude system redundancy, and that there would be a lot of used equipment available to keep it running if something broke. The problem is that the autopilot kept breaking down. (Other stuff broke, too) And I've spent about $10K keeping it running. The autopilot is critical for single pilot IFR nowadays. Tell you why: I got my instrument rating in 1985 in a C-172 with no autopilot, a hand mic, dual VORs, and no DME in the busy SFO bay area. I could fly that airplane to ATP standards and even do intersection holds on one radio. But, the airplane was simple and the avionics was very simple: No buttons to press; no menus to read; no entering alphanumeric data with a minimal user interface; no starting over if I made a programming mistake; controls didn't "time out" and change modes if I got interrupted entering a new frequency. Approaches were simpler. Modern avionics have a lot of capability, but they require a lot of programming. I cannot fly in busy airspace -- especially unfamiliar airspace -- and comply with ever-changing ATC instructions, program the avionics, manage the engine and fly the airplane at the same time. Maybe I could if I did it every day, but I doubt it. So, the most important thing in the modern IFR panel has become a good autopilot. There have been a lot of promises about low cost autopilots from a various manufacturers, but they always seem to be just around the corner. Garmin's GFC 500 is the only one that is really out in the field. So, I decided to go with that. Because of the way Garmin architected the autopilot, that choice forces your into the Garmin "ecosystem." The GFC 500 is a distributed system. Most of the logic is in the display unit (currently G3X, G5, GI 275). Some of the logic is in the servos. The mode controller is just a user interface and some internal AHRS features for fault detection. So, if you want a GFC 500, you need a Garmin display. You are really going to want a WAAS GPS. There are just a lot more approach options. Airports can get GPS approaches without adding expensive ground-based navaids, and some airports may decommission older navaids to reduce maintenance cost of aging equipment. Notice how few NDBs or marker beacons remain. And, you might think that LNAV minimums are good enough because you never intend to fly in really low stuff, but the weather tends to do what it wants and ceiling and visibility forecasts are frequently inaccurate. So the weather can be lower than you expected when you get to your destination. Skip

I finally got to do the torture GI 275 flight!! 1) Pitot tube failed.... AHRS and AI worked perfectly fine with IAS red-x'd 2) To further evaluate, removed all GPS sources so that no speed data at all for the AHRS 530W and turned MFD/stby ADI off so its VFR GPS would not give data to the primary ADI). Still worked perfectly through TWO coordinated standard rate turns. It never red-x'd or tumbled!! Shall publish video hopefully within a week. (It takes time to edit...) My conclusion is the Garmin has "rocket scientists" writing the AHRS software!! Chris

Another angle that i have not seen posted is that my dad was a sailor by profession but owned and flew the M20J mooney because it was financially much cheaper to take him my mom and me in the mooney than pay for 3 airline tickets. Gas was cheap and federal regulations kept airline tickets high. There was a reason delta captains could earn the price of a new Cadillac every paycheck. Now fast forward to me at the same (actually a decade older) age as my dad was then. Gas prices have gone up but not as much as airline tickets have dropped out the bottom with deregulation and competition from ultra low cost carriers and with this post covid climate of trying to get the customer back into the disease tube as some like to refer to it I’m no longer able to save money even on four family members. Example: dfw - Phx $85.39/person $683.12 round trip for 4 people. and we get there in 3 hours. If we try to fly it in our mooney it’s over 5 hours and we would have to stop for restroom break and pickup more fuel as we can’t all 4 go and take enough fuel for non-stop but hypothetically if we were able to fly nonstop it’s still 67 gallons over and 57 gallons back at a national average of five dollars a gallon we’re still looking at $620 in just fuel alone which is right about the same as what we pay commercially this isn’t including oil that I use nor does it include wear and tear on the aircraft. I can fly commercially cheaper sometimes much cheaper with sales and promotions than i can fly our family to a destination with much higher dispatch rates and quicker time. The only trips that make since now are to friends that don’t live by an airport that an ultra low cost carrier flies to or if the range is less than approximately 400 miles we can get there as quick by not dealing with TSA security. Or the novelty of taking up friends that have never flown in a small GA plane before although the liability of getting sued has also dramatically changed since my dad used to take me and my friends up “around the patch” lots of times. Not once did he call to ask parents if it was ok. If the kids hoped in we went. Now a days I’m ever so cautious of only taking up people i know really well and even then it’s a risk if anything happens that i could be sued. That has really taken alot of the fun out of going for a ride. So for new budding pilots it’s not financially motivating to learn how to fly and buy your own airplane when you can go commercially faster and cheaper. And even though he might love to fly it’s a hard sell to the spouse against using that money for other things because who wants to pay more to go slower. GA airplanes are going the same way Amtrack trains are. People have to love that mode of transportation because there are now cheaper and faster modes of transportation out there. uugh. One of my missions was to fly family from DFW to PNS or DTS. How cool to land at an airport overflying the crystal clear waters and beach on final? Well spirit has a direct flight Dfw-Pns for $49 one way! Shit I can’t even drive my car there for that cheap let alone fly the plane. And DTS ramp fees would limit my stay. So once again we will be using that extra money for pontoon rental better hotel stays than flying the mooney. Rats.

In the spirit of Mooney marketing, I'd go with redline: 189

I removed my vacuum pump. I have two G5’s. Shed a little bit of useless extra weight.

Well, crashes always happen when economy is good (by definition), the market will be up and and rates are up. So blaming it on the fed is silly, effectively saying if we had low rates we’d never have a crash. Unlike 08, the banks are not over leveraged. And for the first time, neither are the people, our savings rate is higher than it’s been in a long time. We always will have recessions, and some things are way overpriced (bitcoin), there will be adjustments, but I don’t think you’ll see airplane prices crash unless something happens like the federal government decides 100LL is a harmful pollutant and makes it illegal without having a substitute.

I am incredulous. This is one of the most amazing things I have ever read. I would have never in a million years imagined it. That there aren’t enough cats in Colorado.

update to this thread. The electronic ignition was believed to be the culprit. i have the lycoming branded surefly. the aircraft is a 28V airplane and there is a known issue on the surefly side on some airplanes. I called surefly, but they couldnt give me a power conditioner since mine was a lycoming branded mag. I called lycoming, they let me know they sent me an old magneto when they shipped my new engine this march. they have updated the software on the mags to not be so sensitive to momentary voltage spikes. the revision on the new mag is L, and lycoming tells me the ligtning protection circuit will not activate until 60V know, and should cure my problem. Ill update when it is in next week.

Two important points... 1. You want someone to be safer? How about supporting them getting their Instrument rating no matter their equipment? That rating and the improvement in your skill is about the best possible investment a pilot can make. Sure, should we fly solid IMC to mins all the time with minimal equipment? No. We can certainly spend opm and suggest great panels for people with all kinds of instrument missions, but regardless of their equipment, instrument training is a great idea. 2. If we make our own “rules” about what is safe or not safe in general aviation and these “rules” exclude 90% of the current fleet and exceed the budget of 90% of the pilot population, we are only hastening the demise of GA. I do not want to watch GA turn (further) into something only “rich” people can afford to do. There are certainly nice things people can spend their money on to improve their airplanes, but let’s make sure we know the budget, mission, and personal goals before we tell them what they “must” have.

Hello All, I've been a lurker here for a couple of years. Back in March traveled to Durango, CO to do a pre-buy on a '67 F model. I ended up purchasing the aircraft and have put 100 hours on it since then. I have a bit of a unique situation - I'm Canadian, live in Mexico City, and do business between the USA and Mexico. Because my life is so spread out, I wanted an aircraft that could carry a decent payload, make it from the US border to Mexico City non-stop, and be fun to fly to the beach. The M20F beat out everything else I was looking at on price, simplicity, and pure fun. After signing the paperwork in Durango, I flew to Sandpoint, Idaho to visit friends, followed by a trip to my US base in Portland, Oregon, and then down the coast to Los Angeles where I picked up my mother (who got me interested in flying as a kid) and flew to Mexico City via Bisbee, AZ, Alamos, Sonora (I highly recommend the pilot-owned Hacienda Los Alamos as it has a semi-private strip), Zacatecas, and finally Mexico City. In Los Angeles I got my first taste of flying in a Bravo and even flew in IMC over the top of LAX on the way to Whiteman. Heading south through Mexico we flew over the famous Copper Canyon, a complex of six canyons covering 25,000 square miles. At first I was concerned that there wouldn't be anywhere to set down in an emergency, however I was pleasantly surprised to discover more airstrips embedded into the hills than I could count! I wonder what they use them for... I'm now on the tail end of a two week round trip from Mexico City to Bellingham and back during which I've had the opportunity to land in the Alvord Desert Playa, a must do if you're passing through Southeastern Oregon. The last 100 hours hasn't been without its challenges; the oil probe at the back of the WOLF oil filter relocation kit came loose at some point before arriving in Bellingham and started leaking about a quart of oil per hour. Advanced Aircraft in Troutdale got me sorted pretty quickly. On my girlfriend's first flight, I didn't close the door properly and it ended coming open mid-flight. Luckily we convinced the door to behave and my girlfriend still wants to fly with me. I'm attaching some photos of my adventures and will hopefully get a chance to meet some of you here on the forum or at one of the Mooney meetups this summer!

Does anyone have tech data or know the procedure for gapping the points on a shower of sparks system for a 67F model. That part of my maintenance manual is missing. Thanks

Hey, that means I could put "200" on my C!! I've seen 186 knots = 214 mph groundspeed, leaned out at 7500 msl . . . .

The reason why is fly by wire aircraft except for the Gulfstream and some newer yet to be certified models have zero feedback controls. There is no control feel. (This is the reason why people have so much problem flying GA simulators) For this reason, the stabilizer automatically trims to zero with the elevator. In the case of AF 447 the constant back pressure held resulting in constant stab nose up trim. As the airplane began the in stall decent, the stab trim was full nose up. At that point, stalled with full nose up stab trim, the elevator was insufficient, even nose full nose down on the stick to have the elevator overcome the pitch authority of the stab. Sure, the stab would start trimming full nose down, but not in time to recover the aircraft. Now you would say, that's poor design. But if you have ever been out on functional check flights doing full stalls on a Boeing, where you disable the stick shaker and stick nudger, you would pay attention to the Boeing instructions which have maximum stab trim up settings to prevent you from getting into the same situation. Zero control feel is all the more reason why AOA is important, because you fly the airplane by numbers, not control feel. As for swept back wings, in most designs, the wing is swept back as well as tapered. The is results in wings which stall tip first, even worse, the center of lift moves forward resulting in pitch up tendencies and finally little warning of stall. Couple that with strong span wise flow effect and you have an airplane that gives little warning of stall, when it does it pitches up when it breaks, and becomes highly unstable laterally. Which is why you have things like artificial stick shakers, and indeed nudger to prevent stalls. Worse, as most transports are constructed, the underslung engines powerfully pitch the airplane nose up when power is applied, and the elevator lacks authority due to low speed. Now back to the value of AOA. If as every text tells you, the airplane can be stalled at any attitude and any airspeed, there is only one instrument that will tell you directly and without interpretation how close you are to stall and that is AOA. Everything else is a secondary and interpretive indication. There is also a lesson for those of us who fly Mooneys. In particular long bodies. When you trim nose up against the elevator, or enter a maneuver with a lot of nose up stab, be aware, if you stall, your elevator effectiveness is reduced, because the elevator will have to fight the stab trim. So only use what you need and no more for maximum pitch response.

I guessing 2-3 seconds. I usually leave the flaps deployed at the takeoff setting until I'm 400 to 600 feet agl and my airspeed is at least 100 kts.

The original OP asked if there are any big downsides to kicking the upgrade can down the road. Curious about your opinion. I don't think he mentioned whether his equipment was all working and reliable. If it is, I would tend to say there is no downside to kicking the can down the road. He's got GPS and dual GS/LOC capability. I think I would recommend learning to fly IFR and learning to fly the approaches without all the extra video games. Hand fly the approaches if necessary. Get your rating that way. Then step up to whatever panel solution you really enjoy flying depending on your mission. That's why I suggested the low cost 430 to 430W swap and call it good (but he really doesn't even need to do that). Be advised... I'm not a CFI or a mechanic or an avionics tech... just an older engineer that flys a Mooney that's satisfied with rather basic avionics.

Just hope you don’t have the dual AHRS failure I did.

Once you set the gap, pull the plugs, ground one plug and connect the plug wire, rotate the prop to TDC on that cylinder to observe a strong shower of sparks. If no shower, check the retard p-lead on the left mag. In my case I had a short on that p-lead at the mag where it screws in… I thought I had a SOS issue when it was the retard p-lead.

Quick follow up: The engine is finished and I am back in the air in the Mooney for the first time since January. I pondered this a lot including processing the great feedback I got on this thread. I made a number of landings in my head. In the course of the engine break in flying I did this week I have made five landings, all full flap and for the first time I feel almost as comfortable landing the F as I ever did the C. I think the break through was starting the round out lower than I used to. I can bring it down close, hod it off, bleed the speed and settle it down. I’ve even done a few really good approaches in it too. Thanks for offering your comments, support and sharing your experience.

You are in North Dakota. I would refer you to Beegles Aircraft in Greeley, CO. They are one of the best structural repair shops in the US. They do top notch work, are good to deal with, are a well known entity, and surpass the quality of other well thought of shops. They would be my first Go-To shop for this problem. I rebuild the nose of my aircraft when I did my rebuild, including installing a new firewall. It is going to be a lot of work. You might think of taking the opportunity to update the plane in the process. You will need to replace or repair the firewall. I have a firewall from my 1968 F that was replaced because my original mechanic (who was obviously terminated) over-drilled the cowl flange. Depending upon the damage to your firewall, you may be able to replace the damaged area with a section from mine or from another firewall as a riveted on doubler. Otherwise, the firewall will need to be removed and replaced. Possible upgrades that could be done: 1. 201 windshield 2. 200 HP IO-360 with fuel injection 3. 201 cowling or the cowling Sabermechanic is working on 4. Look at the engine mounting blocks the where lower part of the engine mount attaches. They may be worn and in need of replacement. I removed everything up to the firewall on my plane and then rebuilt the nose making it into a J. Picked up some added speed in the process.

Very unlikely spark plug would pick up lead when combustion temp and pressure produce CHTs in the mid 300s. That’s plenty of heat for good scavenging.

Great updates bmc! Thanks for sharing them… Best regards, -a-

Looks like a big ol Top Oiled Lycoming under the hood, an there is only one McCauley propeller TC’ed for that engine. That would be the C417. BF Goodrich Sells some small containers of Conductive Cement for Boot edge dressing that works well in that area.

Welcome aboard BM… While you are looking up your prop details… which may be around here somewhere… A few Bravo owners are discussing MT props, currently… In the meantime… we can ask our prop guy… @Cody Stallings… (heated prop question, M20M) Best regards, -a-

so sorry to hear. Airmods in Robbinsville NJ has deep expertise in Mooney airframe repair. Assuming money is no object, it probably is fixable. It's worth contacting them.

Very nicely done. One of the best “J” model panels I’ve seen yet.

You ought to be running her LOP with that TN setup. You'll run much cooler, cleaner, and on less fuel than that power setting. Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

Some very good points here, thank you all. I am leaning towards the higher oil temp as leading reason for lower oil pressure. Spoke with previous owner at length today and he concurred. Going to take her back up this week and test this theory. Would also explain higher oil use on the round trip too. I'm a relatively new Mooney pilot, right at 100 hours since purchase, so figuring some things out as I go along. Grateful for the community here.

Was forced to take off and land without flaps yesterday in my 20F. The angle on climb out was much reduced and made life very interesting. The tree tops didn't drop away as they usually do. On landing at a 2,400 ft runway, I had to use lots of braking. Usually, landing with flaps requires almost no braking at all. I'll be pleased when the mechanic returns my flaps to service.

The Big ticket aircraft, yachts etc have been selling very well for years, it’s the boats and airplanes that the middle class used to buy that have been in dire straights. However this post pandemic sales of everything that middle class people is buying is new. I fear the bust will be worse than 08 when it happens, but then I worry,it’s my nature.

I would say the issue is you are in FULL Fire Breathing Dragon Mode. I never flew mine for long periods of time in full fire breathing dragon mode. Even though it says max continuous is 27.5 inches of MP doesn't mean you have to run it like that. Your oil pressure is right in line for how you are running the engine in my opinion. Oil temp 215, #3 Cyl 398 and TIT 1410 all indicate your everything in your engine while "are within spec" but on the higher side of normal would force you oil to be hotter and thinner thus pressure would be on the lower side. There are better experts than me, but I would run mine at 25 to 26 inches of MP (most of the time lean of peak) and my cyl temps were always under 350 usually like in the 300 - 330 range. Simply my experience in my old M20F with a RayJay Turbo (I am not sure of your brand of turbo in your J model which of course has the better cowl etc).

It is a true AOA. The data is there in every airplane, both Boeing and Airbus. You just have to choose to display it. And yes it is at a legacy carrier. DAL.

I bought my first plane, an M20E, from two “old guys” who were having trouble getting in and out, and they planned to get a 177RG for those nice big doors. Now, 30+ years later, I can understand their point much better.

Speaking of really low budget upgrades, has anyone compared the pin outs on a 430 vs a 430W? Can the same tray be used? Does the swap require more than a WAAS antenna upgrade? I'm keeping my vacuum pump to drive my DG, TC and A/P. Will probably change the AI to digital. Don't understand the need for a backup AI on top of digital AI and vacuum TC. Seems like we operated with far less for decades.

will do! hartzell top prop two blade. i was level last night at 10500, and it was pretty warm. still making well over 160kts true. seems to work well at altitude! planning to replace the junk ignition harness lycoming supplied with the engine next week when i replace the mag. ordered a new maggie ignition harness. if it works as well as thier customer service, ill be thrilled.

There’s another thread from a few months ago. Remove the left exhaust cavity and have someone swing the nose wheel back and forth with a towbar (easier if you put it on jacks) and look to see what is causing the master cylinder to actuate. Skip

I've had a couple. My current AC has the heads up display mounted above glare shield and I find it very useful. My previous AC had the indicator on the panel and I flew AS and occasionally crosschecked the AOA. Now, with the indicator in my field of view it's the opposite. Pitch to the blue circle, crosscheck AS, and eyes back outside. For me, moving the indicator above the glare shield removed the system from the "gimmick" category and placed it firmly into the "tool" space.

You’re virtually guaranteed to be underwater on any airplane you purchase. It can still be overpriced, but being underwater should be expected.

Love the gyrocopter. I could see going with one of these happy ditties. The ultimate in slow.

So to answer your question, yes I have landed the M20F no flaps...many times. I can say this for all of the certified singles I've ever flown (at least for those that had flaps). I think it is a suboptimal approach to landing the M20F. I think better and more passenger friendly landings can be achieved with full flaps. Full flaps also allow a steeper power off approach facilitating obstacle clearance and visibility. It really is not very different from 3 point TD landings except for the Mooney will be much more stable in the yaw axis. What problems are you having? It is likely that one way or another they are tied to airspeed.

Regarding the GFC 500 and different Nav source boxes, I confirmed with Garmin that the Nav source needs to be manually switched on the missed approach. So, for example, with the GPS175 and GNC 255, after going missed from an ILS approach using the GNC 255: 1. Push the TOGA Button 2. Verify GA/GA 3. Add Power and properly configure for the go around 4. Verify missed approach altitude 5. Switch input source on the G5 to GPS 175 and verify GPS on the G5 6. Reengage NAV Mode on the GMC 507 to fly the missed approach 7. Reengage IAS or V/S 8. Verify AFCS Modes

Water? In the fuel....

Adding to the observations... CHTs were steady around 350°F.... But, preceding the RPM spike... the CHTs started heading lower... Was there a change in OAT, or descent occurring for this? Great data set... OAT and Altitude were steady during this portion of the fight...

B, FF is pretty steady in the flight... at 13.2gph Seems kind of high for an M20J? Something happens as if the mixture gets pulled back... FF drops to 12.9gph, EGTs climb along with the change... FF then wobbles unsteady above 15gph.... Are these FF numbers correct? can you share more than this one flight? I am expecting FF closer to 10gph for an IO360... Looks like the mixture was trying to flood the engine, after a momentary lean state... Check to see if your mixture knob is working correctly... Confirm that you were really using 13gph in an IO360. Are you at home base now? PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a-

We were recently informed that our landlord at the local airstrip was effectively doubling everyone’s rent in the POS powerless, constantly flooding hangars that they operate. A group of us renters are contemplating a hangar LLC formation to try and build some and alleviate some of Nashville’s hangar shortages. Has anyone else looked into doing something like this and what was your experience. I’ve looked at the airport land plan and minimum standards and am not worried about those aspects. We more than likely would need to pour a pad for the new location and tie into a taxiway.

Sound recommendation. That said, if you're on a budget, a pair of G5s is a considerably cheaper option that achieves most of the same functionality. The hardware and installation costs for GI-275s are not just slightly higher than the prior-generation G5, they are dramatically higher. I have no quarrel with people who think the touchscreen interface, higher resolution, and additional functionality of the GI-275 is worth it (particularly when it comes to autopilot integration). But a pair of G5s is a really sound ADI/HSI solution for considerably less money. If you keep your eye out, you just might find a pair of pre-owned G5s in good shape, say from someone upgrading to the GI-275.

I'm still flying with a mechanical AI and DG, I think that puts me in the grave.

You and me both, brother.

Oh geez.... I am flying behind a 530W, 300XL and G5's....where does that put me on this list? A crawl, lying flat on the couch, using a walker....