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Many years ago when contemplating my first airplane purchase, a pilot/owner friend told me that the best part of owning an airplane is that the flying is free. When queried, he explained that the insurance, hangar, inspections and maintenance were so costly that the gas and oil to actually fly it was lost in the noise. However, having the key in your pocket - priceless.

I have used Gee-Bee stuff on 3 airplanes so far and never been disappointed. The baffles he makes fit perfectly. I just put in door seals on my F and they went in nice. I have been an owner for 15 years and some of the people I have been using have aged out of the business. Gee-Bee is still in the game making quality products. I am a satisfied repeat customer. Just a pirep.

The airplane takes off when lift = weight. Lift is a function of TAS^2; it is not affected by thrust and thus choice of propeller which only affects how quickly the airplane accelerates to takeoff speed. I cannot account for the differences in the POH speeds; there are some anomalies in the Mooney performance data between various models. Perhaps it is a difference in technique by different test pilots. Rotation is really a concept from jets and not directly applicable to piston powered airplanes. The best technique is to apply a small amount of back pressure during the takeoff roll and let the airplane fly off when it's ready rather than trying to yank it off the ground (i.e. rotate) at a particular speed.

The troll only lives when he is fed. Ignore the troll, don't feed him and he will direct his attention to other online forums where they feed him and engage him in endless debates. (https://behaviourhelp.com/a-z-challenging-behaviours/argumentative-behaviour#:~:text=Here are some common causes,to a propensity for argumentation.) He has a hard time remembering which of his screen names to use that hasn't been blocked on Mooneyspace. Perhaps supplemental oxygen would help.

As long as your SpO2 is good, who cares?

The video seems well done, however I threw up in my mouth a little when she mentioned the F-16 during the stability discussion and the video shows an F-15. I’ll try to finish it later because I did like it up until that point.

Just talked to Jon as mentioned by @201Mooniac. Jon was very helpful. Talked about going to Osh and Sun n fun. Offered the discounted price that was offered during Osh. It seems that the Inogen is selling well at the shows. New version is the Rove 6. Well needless to say I am a little lighter in the wallet now. Ships tomorrow and should arrive by Thursday. Jon was a pleasure to work with.

No reason to post other than I'm just excited it's "done". It's been a MUCH longer and more expensive journey than I expected and if we're being honest, I'm not totally sure it's been worth it, but I'm glad I don't have to touch it again. Before/After pictures below (how I bought it and how it is now). The previous owner (well the one that actually cared about the plane) is @rainman and he did a beautiful job with the initial upgrade. First iteration: When I first got the plane, I wanted to upgrade the GPS units. I ended up going with a 650/355 combo. In hindsight, I should have done a 750/215 or something similar. I don't use the second GPS other than for the Connext, and at times I just always have it on the "nearest" page. This upgrade wasn't done right. As a matter of fact, it was done so terribly wrong, and went so far over time, that the shop that did it didn't charge me. They didn't even really make eye contact, they just handed me the keys and the logs. The biggest red-flag was when they said the GPS was flakey and they didn't know why, but it didn't dawn on them that it's hard to get a GPS signal from inside the hangar. Ghost traffic, comm 2 didn't work, transponder was flakey, etc. Second iteration: After noticing all of the glaring issues, I had another mechanic look at it, and he fixed all the wiring, installed a 345R, Aera 760 (awesome unit, my wife loves it) and a handful of other things I can't even remember. Third iteration: Once that was done, just before headed home (MN -> AZ), the AI took a spill. My mechanic sent me a G5 and I decided to install that and nix the vac system as well. Fourth and final iteration: Mechanic back home took the plane in for an oil change and a few other things. He noticed some glaring airworthiness issues that were ignored by the recent overhaul and annual. While fixing those, he noticed the JPI was illegally wired (showing proof) and stating I should just upgrade it. The fastest upgrade was a 275, which was fine since I have all Garmin anyways. He also threw in the "I mean... while you're doing it.. just move to a 275AI, too... right? And SmartGlide?..". Some other upgrades would be some LED strobes, LEMO plugs, complete rewiring in the engine bay (mangled from the overhaul shop), new engine frame, fixed cowl flaps, new brakes, overhauled autopilot, etc etc etc. The most hilarious part is my audio panel is horrendous still. I feel like I'm flying with a Tom Ford suit but NewBalance shoes. I can't talk to my passengers unless I yell, and if I have a mask on for FL180+, I can't talk at all. It's gotten so bad, I actually would switch over to 123.45 to hot-mic and talk to my passengers if I needed to. So, that's the last and hopefully final upgrade, which I'll probably throw in a PMA 450B. I've already got way way too much in this panel for a 1979 M20K.

Here’s my contribution to the thread, fresh from paint.

^^^THIS^^^ @M20GforMe this is the bottom line. Personal experience and reading this forum has taught me that an airplane for sale that does NOT have deferred maintenance is a rare bird. Americans, or the pilot community, or maybe just Mooney people want "cheap" above all else, and nobody wants to spend money on an airplane that has fallen into disuse. You have received a ton of advice here mostly suggesting that you got screwed on the sale, and that you continue to get screwed by your shop. I'll swim upstream and say that a quick review of the estimate did not look wildly out of line to me. The hourly shop rate is not bad for your part of the country -- check out the hourly rate for a plumber. Sounds like they looked at everything, found a ton of discrepancies, and estimated the time and materials to fix everything. If I were in your shoes, I would work with this shop to understand what needs to be fixed to get your annual signed off and what can be deferred a year. The cost is brutal, but if you burn this bridge now, you may come to regret it later. Good shops are hard to find. Personal relationships are everything.

The FAA mentions it as a thing. They don’t say it is good or bad. The regs just say oxygen. It doesn’t mention anything about where it comes from.

Mooneyspace is a great source of information from people who have experience that we can all draw from. Occasionally someone signs up on here that really enjoys taking a contrary view about nearly every subject and has very little to zero personal experience on the subject they are arguing about. They never pay the money to be a supporter on the site and are here to stir things up and argue and don't contribute in any positive way. They get banned and then come back with another screen name. Most people who have been on here a long time have learned to ignore them and not take their bait to engage in endless debate. There's always the ignore option on their profile. (Beechtalk's policy of people using their actual name as their screen name seems to help people behave better and not hide behind a random screen name.) Personal observation: I've had an Inogen for close to 10 years. I bought it off of a Craigslist ad with 10 hours on it for $500 and although I have built-in oxygen I very rarely use the on-board oxygen. My canisters on the Inogen are still good - I only use it for flying and the bottom line: it keeps my SPO2 where I want it. I end up using it on almost flight, whether it's 8000 or in the teens. Very rarely do I go into the flight levels, but when I do I plug into the on board O2 FL180 and above, with a mask. It has opened up options for me - if I need to climb higher I'm not restricted by how much oxygen is in my on-board tank. I still have my on-board O2 plus a few cans of Boost in the back pockets of the front two seats.

(First time lurker posting after recently bought my first M20C) The trim switch recently became stiff to toggle and got stuck. Took some time to took it off and disassembled it. Turns out the 2 toggle switches are 7105 C&K SPDT switches. 7105P4D9ZQE is the exact fit but it's not available on Mouser/Digikey. 7105P4YZQE is the next close enough switch that are in stock and can be shipped immediately! Eagerly waiting for it to arrive This is the datasheet for anyone who likes to learn more. On the disassemble process, attached some images with some key components, the 4 small screws can be removed using T5 screwdriver. Figured I'd share this info for anyone who'd like to avoid buying the entire expensive switch! Cheers Nicholas

In the cold dense air of winter, an IO360 can be started almost like a car. Mixture rich, throttle cracked and turn the key. However, that procedure can flood the engine before it fires if conditions are not ideal. It matters not what technique you use as long as a combustible mix of air and fuel is delivered to the cylinders. For cold starts, the prime, idle cut-off and crank with the throttle cracked method has always achieved consistent results for me. The engine often starts on the first blade.

Very nice panel. In my opinion the 231 is very capable and worthy of a excellent IFR panel, should you choose to invest the $$. I doubt I will get all my upgrade money back when I sell, but there is a lot to be said for really enjoying flying with a great IFR panel. When I upgraded Myrtle's panel I figured I should get at least 15 years worth of use out of the panel. I am 2 years into it now, and NO REGRETS. It was a lot of coins but it helps pay for itself every time I fly.

Will be at the hangar next Wednesday and can get a couple pictures.

@M20GforMe If this hasn't been done, please do this before you do anything else

The reality is that this needs to be chalked up to experience. The only winners in any litigation will be the attorneys, you will spend more in fees than you will ever recover. You will also not be able to bring in another mechanic in, or move the plane for any less than you are currently stuck with. While it’s easy for us who have been owners for years to say this is the way it is, for a new, first time owner this is a bitter pill. Try to focus on the upside, which is that your plane will be tight and right after this, and like everyone else says, fly the heck out of it after and enjoy the confidence of a well maintained airplane. In a few years this won’t even be a blip on your radar.

Also, don’t move the data plate. There were some strange years at Mooney. Data plates were installed on the right side FWD cabin vent scoop. I’d be happy to go over the list with you. Before a dime is spent on any component or upgrade, I would verify the state of corrosion on the airplane. Pull the rear seats out and check the rear spar and main spar webs and Caps. Nobody pulls the tape off the seat panels. -Matt

Cabin Door Baggage Door

Not saying that the pilot didn't do this, but if I have a catastrophic engine failure I hope I put into practice Bob Hoover's famous quote: “If you’re faced with a forced landing, fly the thing as far into the crash as possible.”

Why is it that every part of a Mooney seems like the first part they started adding other parts around to build the airplane?

Yeah, I noticed that, too. Although you could always just shut down one engine and drop your tanks and then *presto* you're an F-16! I'm actually surprised when anyone in the press doesn't mix up airplanes. You know, like the F-15's in the new Top Gun movie...

Engineers always talk in terms of stability and control. The classic textbook is Perkins and Hage, Airplane Performance, Stability and Control.

As has been mentioned, make sure you have all the parts for the Doghouse. I can see that you do not have the inter cylinder baffles as @@N201MKTurbo has mentioned. They are quite important for proper cooling. If you had them we would see the the hook that hooks from the top of the cylinders down through to the underneath side where the baffle is. Also, make sure you have the connecting tie rod along the bottom. It holds a front piece of the baffling to a rear piece of the baffling and keeps them tight around the cylinders. It is amazing what a difference it makes in cooling just to have those tight around the cylinders.

How well does it work for you in 1 or 2 person set up? It's misleading because you're blindly taking a recommendation that may or may not be applicable to the person using it and painting broad brush strokes. 2 person mode might not work for someone at all. However the machine concentrates oxygen. It's working as intended. But the guideline isn't law and may or may not be applicable. ANY oxygen equipment you you should be end user tested to verify it's working properly and that you find the settings that work for you. Don't blindly follow any manufacturer recommendations "trusting" that they work for you. Maybe they oversold it, or maybe they're way conservative. But DO follow FAA regulations, because that's how we protect our privilege to fly.

Just let them kill themselves and don’t worry about it.

I remember back in like ‘84 or so, I was based out of the Aurora airport (01V). I was flying around and it looked like they were making a new highway out in the middle of nowhere. After a few days I figured it must be a runway. My buddies and I kept joking (maybe) about who would be the first one to do a touch and go on it. After all, there was nothing saying it was closed, or even an airport. I will have to check my logbook, but I think I landed there the first day it was open. Back then it was called the Front Range Airport. The first time I landed there there was nothing there except runways, taxiways and a ramp. No buildings of any kind and no paved roads.

Clearly a gateway drug; first O2, then, before you know it...

You'd be surprised. We routinely check pulse ox on everyone from critical ill to standard vitals for a sprain in an otherwise healthy patient. Skin pigmentation, fingernail polish, poor circulation, cold fingers...even healthy people have fingers that might not always read properly. Most problematic I'd think would be use of fake nails/nail polish and vasoconstriction from just being cold in the winter or at altitude. Some people also have hypersensitive vasoconstriction to cold (i.e. Raynaud's) and might not get a great reading at times. This is why I think it's important to establish your baseline for what "seems right" for you and what seems like somethings "off". Most of the decent portable pulse ox's that I've seen have a bar that beats up and down showing wave form. If that's not correlating with your pulse, then it may not be accurate. Some newer units have an OLED screen that actually show wave form. Its a good idea to have a rough idea of where you "trend" at various altitudes as there are lots of variables in each of our "high altitude" physiologies.

At this point I have spent 23 years of my working life as an engineer for FDA regulated medical device manufacturers. Inogen is a regulated medical device manufacturer. They cannot recommend in any way that their devices be used for any off label use. I'm sure that is why they made an aviation version. It is probably not marketed as a medical device and therefore not regulated by the FDA. They cannot approve of anyone using any of there medical devices for aviation use, because that is not what it was designed and approved for. Even if they are the exact same device. None of these regulations apply to the end user. if you buy one, you can do anything you want with it.

I guess he won’t stop till everybody agrees with him. If he doesn’t think it is safe to use it, nobody is going to make him use it. I don’t care. I fill my own bottles and I have an O2 compressor, so it costs me very little in time or money to fill my bottles. I’m sort of an I’ll do me and you do you. Even though I’m considered a bit of a stickler for the rules when it comes to the IA thing. I can’t imagine how the Inogen users manual is regulatory. The only regulation I can think of with regard to supplemental oxygen is to ware a mask above 18000 feet.

You have been watching too many bad movies.

It smells lovely….a little dab behind the ears will make you irresistible to the girls…

Flying south this evening home after visiting the U.S. Space & Rocket Center in Huntsville, Alabama. Highly recommend it!

I think flying at 7,500 or above for an extensive period of time, while maybe not physically noticeable enroute can lead to fatigue and poor decision making, which IS bad ADM. Also, the Rove 6 with the Beechtalk discount was about $1,800 new, arguably not cheap, but for me well worth it for my intended use.

You can't take a tank on a Commercial airplane. You can take an oxygen concentrator. In the past, if I was to be offered a job ferrying a plane from the east coast to the west coast or anywhere in between and it didn't have O2, I wouldn't take the job without being provided a tank. Most Mooneys before the K model don't have built in O2. If I'm not flying my plane to a Mooney PPP when I can bring along a separate tank, then teaching at a high altitude airport like Cheyenne this month and being assigned a student with a C model was perfectly comfortable with the Inogen Rove 6. I know my student appreciated it while we were doing the air work at 9,500 feet. Both of our sats were in the high 90s. By buying the Inogen I paid for both safety and clarity.

There isn’t at this point. Being able to annotate the chart or otherwise make changes due to NOTAMs and the like is one of the top two or three wish list items I’ve see mentioned.

Even in the darkest of times, the flickering flame of civilization burns in the most surprising places. I can picture the Little Debbie logo...

The discrepancy list shows that they did a very thorough inspection which is a good thing. Not all of this needs to be fixed immediately, however, to legally and safely return the airplane to service. I would work with the shop to prioritize. A second opinion is always a good idea and I would not expect a reputable shop to object. I have even had shops call in another mechanic for a second opinion when they saw something questionable. Most of the labor estimates don’t seem unreasonable to me based on my experience. It took my mechanic a couple of hours to mount my McCauley prop on the new engine. And he’s done a lot of them. It’s tricky to torque the nuts and safety wiring with .040 wire is difficult with the nuts recessed in the hub. And properly shimming the spinner takes a bit of trial and error. It appears that your new bird has not been all that well maintained. This is not uncommon. I would just sit down with the shop owner/manager and work out a plan of action. This may be a new situation for you, but I guarantee it’s not the first one for the shop. Good luck

I’m going to strongly suggest they did not properly check the clearance on those rocker arms properly. If they are as tight and short as suggested, they wouldn’t have made it 800hrs AND you wouldn’t have had good compression.

I think I’ll say the same thing as everyone else, but my $0.02 is to focus on the future. The best prebuy in the world won’t prevent you from finding corrosion or engine problems in your first year of ownership, and we all have a bit of a dice roll when we go into that first annual. You always budget for the unknown unknowns and hope it’s not as bad as you fear. The good news is that you bought the plane you wanted and that will make you happy. Just get it airworthy and fly the hell out of it.

I remember about 25 years ago I had a rocker with a chip on its face. I took it to the local engine shop to get a new one. I showed it to the owner of the shop and he said “you don’t need a new one” then took it to his grinder and ground the face down till the chip was gone. He handed it back and said “here ya go” I put it back in the engine and it never gave me any trouble.

24 hours is the inspection time...not counting actually fixing squawks. Then if a part is needed and must be ordered, etc. Things can get very lengthy if the wrong things are broken.

@Paul Thomas A pulse oximeter estimates the oxygen saturation of blood (SpO2) and pulse rate by shining two different wavelengths of light (red and infrared) through the fingertip and measuring how much light is absorbed/transmitted. Oxygenated and deoxygenated hemoglobin absorb these wavelengths differently, allowing the device to calculate the percentage of hemoglobin that is saturated with oxygen. An important tool for any SpO2 reading is plethysmography tracings or "pleth" or "waveform" which is a measure of volumetric changes associated with pulsatile arterial blood flow. Inconsistent or distorted pleth may result in changes to the computer calculated value resulting in artificially HIGH or LOW SpO2 reading. Therefore, plethysomography ensures reliability of the calculated oxygen saturation. With carboxyhemoglobin (i.e. carbon monoxide poisoning), the abnormally bound hemoglobin has similar absorption spectrum as when O2 is bound...so it can be falsely interpreted by pulse oximeter as "saturated" even though you are actually hypoxic and have a LOW total amount of oxygen in the blood. CO binds to hemoglobin MUCH more strongly than oxygen and so carbon monoxide actually displaces oxygen from your hemoglobin. This is why it concentrates over time and longer duration is a more damaging effect as more and more CO is bound and less and less oxygen is carried in the blood and delivered to tissue. Here's a great medical site going deeper into the details: https://medicine.uiowa.edu/iowaprotocols/pulse-oximetry-basic-principles-and-interpretation

Not andy, but yes. Another member here 3d printed one for me that I use from time to time. Here's pics of his test-fit. Also since we're talking about cooling options, I added a picture of 26C with Jetshades installed. Looks so good.

No reg sets any requirement other than you must use some form of supplemental O2. The 5 year life on the columns is based on 24/7 use. If you fly 168 hours a year using it, that is 1 week of medical use. So that 5 year life is MANY aircraft years. Most of use using the units wear a pulse oximeter to continuously monitor our O2 saturation level.

Great video, thanks for posting. There's something extra comforting about Janice making the videos from the right seat. Gives that "instructor" feel.