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The airplane takes off when lift = weight. Lift is a function of TAS^2; it is not affected by thrust and thus choice of propeller which only affects how quickly the airplane accelerates to takeoff speed. I cannot account for the differences in the POH speeds; there are some anomalies in the Mooney performance data between various models. Perhaps it is a difference in technique by different test pilots. Rotation is really a concept from jets and not directly applicable to piston powered airplanes. The best technique is to apply a small amount of back pressure during the takeoff roll and let the airplane fly off when it's ready rather than trying to yank it off the ground (i.e. rotate) at a particular speed.

A G5 is a very good instrument and a good addition if you have a GPS navigator. My G5 HSI was installed not long after my DG failed, and later after several AI failures I punted and put in a second G5 to replace the AI. I highly recommend them. I've flown with GI-275s as well, and while they certainly have their place, I think the display space on the G5 is used much more efficiently and is more readable than the 275. I'd suggest getting a good look at both before making a decision.

I have used Gee-Bee stuff on 3 airplanes so far and never been disappointed. The baffles he makes fit perfectly. I just put in door seals on my F and they went in nice. I have been an owner for 15 years and some of the people I have been using have aged out of the business. Gee-Bee is still in the game making quality products. I am a satisfied repeat customer. Just a pirep.

As long as your SpO2 is good, who cares?

Many years ago when contemplating my first airplane purchase, a pilot/owner friend told me that the best part of owning an airplane is that the flying is free. When queried, he explained that the insurance, hangar, inspections and maintenance were so costly that the gas and oil to actually fly it was lost in the noise. However, having the key in your pocket - priceless.

Here’s my contribution to the thread, fresh from paint.

No reason to post other than I'm just excited it's "done". It's been a MUCH longer and more expensive journey than I expected and if we're being honest, I'm not totally sure it's been worth it, but I'm glad I don't have to touch it again. Before/After pictures below (how I bought it and how it is now). The previous owner (well the one that actually cared about the plane) is @rainman and he did a beautiful job with the initial upgrade. First iteration: When I first got the plane, I wanted to upgrade the GPS units. I ended up going with a 650/355 combo. In hindsight, I should have done a 750/215 or something similar. I don't use the second GPS other than for the Connext, and at times I just always have it on the "nearest" page. This upgrade wasn't done right. As a matter of fact, it was done so terribly wrong, and went so far over time, that the shop that did it didn't charge me. They didn't even really make eye contact, they just handed me the keys and the logs. The biggest red-flag was when they said the GPS was flakey and they didn't know why, but it didn't dawn on them that it's hard to get a GPS signal from inside the hangar. Ghost traffic, comm 2 didn't work, transponder was flakey, etc. Second iteration: After noticing all of the glaring issues, I had another mechanic look at it, and he fixed all the wiring, installed a 345R, Aera 760 (awesome unit, my wife loves it) and a handful of other things I can't even remember. Third iteration: Once that was done, just before headed home (MN -> AZ), the AI took a spill. My mechanic sent me a G5 and I decided to install that and nix the vac system as well. Fourth and final iteration: Mechanic back home took the plane in for an oil change and a few other things. He noticed some glaring airworthiness issues that were ignored by the recent overhaul and annual. While fixing those, he noticed the JPI was illegally wired (showing proof) and stating I should just upgrade it. The fastest upgrade was a 275, which was fine since I have all Garmin anyways. He also threw in the "I mean... while you're doing it.. just move to a 275AI, too... right? And SmartGlide?..". Some other upgrades would be some LED strobes, LEMO plugs, complete rewiring in the engine bay (mangled from the overhaul shop), new engine frame, fixed cowl flaps, new brakes, overhauled autopilot, etc etc etc. The most hilarious part is my audio panel is horrendous still. I feel like I'm flying with a Tom Ford suit but NewBalance shoes. I can't talk to my passengers unless I yell, and if I have a mask on for FL180+, I can't talk at all. It's gotten so bad, I actually would switch over to 123.45 to hot-mic and talk to my passengers if I needed to. So, that's the last and hopefully final upgrade, which I'll probably throw in a PMA 450B. I've already got way way too much in this panel for a 1979 M20K.

^^^THIS^^^ @M20GforMe this is the bottom line. Personal experience and reading this forum has taught me that an airplane for sale that does NOT have deferred maintenance is a rare bird. Americans, or the pilot community, or maybe just Mooney people want "cheap" above all else, and nobody wants to spend money on an airplane that has fallen into disuse. You have received a ton of advice here mostly suggesting that you got screwed on the sale, and that you continue to get screwed by your shop. I'll swim upstream and say that a quick review of the estimate did not look wildly out of line to me. The hourly shop rate is not bad for your part of the country -- check out the hourly rate for a plumber. Sounds like they looked at everything, found a ton of discrepancies, and estimated the time and materials to fix everything. If I were in your shoes, I would work with this shop to understand what needs to be fixed to get your annual signed off and what can be deferred a year. The cost is brutal, but if you burn this bridge now, you may come to regret it later. Good shops are hard to find. Personal relationships are everything.

Get in touch with Mike Busch at SavvyAvaition.com right now He is the guy you need for help RIGHT NOW His fees are reasonable and the cheapest money you will ever spend on your plane. savvyaviation.com Run don't walk to your computer!!!

I think I’ll say the same thing as everyone else, but my $0.02 is to focus on the future. The best prebuy in the world won’t prevent you from finding corrosion or engine problems in your first year of ownership, and we all have a bit of a dice roll when we go into that first annual. You always budget for the unknown unknowns and hope it’s not as bad as you fear. The good news is that you bought the plane you wanted and that will make you happy. Just get it airworthy and fly the hell out of it.

In the cold dense air of winter, an IO360 can be started almost like a car. Mixture rich, throttle cracked and turn the key. However, that procedure can flood the engine before it fires if conditions are not ideal. It matters not what technique you use as long as a combustible mix of air and fuel is delivered to the cylinders. For cold starts, the prime, idle cut-off and crank with the throttle cracked method has always achieved consistent results for me. The engine often starts on the first blade.

Very nice panel. In my opinion the 231 is very capable and worthy of a excellent IFR panel, should you choose to invest the $$. I doubt I will get all my upgrade money back when I sell, but there is a lot to be said for really enjoying flying with a great IFR panel. When I upgraded Myrtle's panel I figured I should get at least 15 years worth of use out of the panel. I am 2 years into it now, and NO REGRETS. It was a lot of coins but it helps pay for itself every time I fly.

Will be at the hangar next Wednesday and can get a couple pictures.

The reality is that this needs to be chalked up to experience. The only winners in any litigation will be the attorneys, you will spend more in fees than you will ever recover. You will also not be able to bring in another mechanic in, or move the plane for any less than you are currently stuck with. While it’s easy for us who have been owners for years to say this is the way it is, for a new, first time owner this is a bitter pill. Try to focus on the upside, which is that your plane will be tight and right after this, and like everyone else says, fly the heck out of it after and enjoy the confidence of a well maintained airplane. In a few years this won’t even be a blip on your radar.

Also, don’t move the data plate. There were some strange years at Mooney. Data plates were installed on the right side FWD cabin vent scoop. I’d be happy to go over the list with you. Before a dime is spent on any component or upgrade, I would verify the state of corrosion on the airplane. Pull the rear seats out and check the rear spar and main spar webs and Caps. Nobody pulls the tape off the seat panels. -Matt

Valve clearance needs to be checked with the tappets dry. If they didn't remove and empty the lifters, they're going to think the pushrod is too long. Essentially all reputable engine shops have had very long lead times for years. FWIW, based on what you've said so far, and the squawk list you got from the A&P I would STRONGLY suggest that you get an A&P who is very familiar with Mooneys to provide a second opinion on everything, including the engine issues. There are a number of things on the squawk list that I think need a second set of Mooney-experienced eyes, and I suspect much of that list (if not most or maybe all) does not represent airworthiness issues. DO NOT move the data plate until further investigation. Not all Mooneys had the data plate on the tail. Some were on the nose in front of the wing, and there may have been other places as well. This is one of those things that raises a yellow (if not red) flag. I wouldn't move the data plate unless there was a compelling reason to do so. "The A&P said so" is the LEAST compelling reason to do something like that. As a new aircraft owner you should be made aware that YOU, and not the A&P, are legally responsible for the maintenance on the aircraft. Ultimately you are in charge. Don't sign up for new engine mounts until you determine that the shims have been adjusted the maximum amount for any droop that may or may not be happening. Bottom line, I'd stop everything and get a 2nd opinion from an experienced Mooney mechanic. There are too many big questions about what you've described so far.

And, I'd be looking for a new urologist

Don't feel bad. Back in the 1990s my airline bought 5 used 737G's from Germania airlines because we were desperate for the lift, the market was hot and they could be had at a cheap price. They had no galleys so we knew we had to add them to meet our service requirements. Then we found out the floors were not strong enough (the factory strengthens the floors under galleys in production) so we had to do that. When we got into that mod, massive corrosion was found. When it was all done, we could have bought new 737s cheaper. On the ferry flight to headquarters, I had to shut down one engine due fire warning, then had to declare another emergency when the other engine developed low oil pressure. Had to replace both engines. The point of this story is sometimes in the heat of the moment to "buy something" even sophisticated buyers from one of the world's largest airline, supposedly the most sophisticated aviation people in the world can be taken for a ride. A humorous note is the airplanes were so problematic, we gave them evil movie names, such as "Chucky", "Christine", "Jason" etc. 3 years later they were gone and so was our money. Sorry for your troubles, the lesson is an expensive one and you are now the wiser for it.

I’m going to chalk this up as an expensive learning lesson and move on, I appreciate the Candid responses. I think my A&P got me a bit worked up, but at the end of the day I shouldn’t have let it go without a prebuy, and I’m not convinced this would have all been caught in a prebuy either. I’ll just pray the IRAN goes well and doesn’t take as long as I fear it will. Thank you all for your input

It depends. On an approach that I'm familiar with, and I'm very current, and the autopilot is working, and there is not a lot of turbulence or wind shear reported, and there is a convenient alternate nearby with better conditions, I'll happily go to 200-1/2. If any conditions, or combination of conditions are not met, I will increase the planning minimums or cancel the flight depending on the severity or combination of conditions. Once near the destination, only low level turbulence or windshear will cause me to not shoot the approach.

Mooneyspace is a great source of information from people who have experience that we can all draw from. Occasionally someone signs up on here that really enjoys taking a contrary view about nearly every subject and has very little to zero personal experience on the subject they are arguing about. They never pay the money to be a supporter on the site and are here to stir things up and argue and don't contribute in any positive way. Most people who have been on here a long time have learned to ignore them and not take their bait to engage in endless debate. There's always the ignore option on their profile. Personal observation: I've had an Inogen for close to 10 years. I bought it off of a Craigslist ad with 10 hours on it for $500 and although I have built-in oxygen I very rarely use the on-board oxygen. My canisters on the Inogen are still good - I only use it for flying and the bottom line: it keeps my SPO2 where I want it. I end up using it on almost flight, whether it's 8000 or in the teens. Very rarely do I go into the flight levels, but when I do I plug into the on board O2 FL180 and above, with a mask. It has opened up options for me - if I need to climb higher I'm not restricted by how much oxygen is in my on-board tank. I still have my on-board O2 plus a few cans of Boost in the back pockets of the front two seats.

I guess he won’t stop till everybody agrees with him. If he doesn’t think it is safe to use it, nobody is going to make him use it. I don’t care. I fill my own bottles and I have an O2 compressor, so it costs me very little in time or money to fill my bottles. I’m sort of an I’ll do me and you do you. Even though I’m considered a bit of a stickler for the rules when it comes to the IA thing. I can’t imagine how the Inogen users manual is regulatory. The only regulation I can think of with regard to supplemental oxygen is to ware a mask above 18000 feet.

You have been watching too many bad movies.

(First time lurker posting after recently bought my first M20C) The trim switch recently became stiff to toggle and got stuck. Took some time to took it off and disassembled it. Turns out the 2 toggle switches are 7105 C&K SPDT switches. 7105P4D9ZQE is the exact fit but it's not available on Mouser/Digikey. 7105P4YZQE is the next close enough switch that are in stock and can be shipped immediately! Eagerly waiting for it to arrive This is the datasheet for anyone who likes to learn more. On the disassemble process, attached some images with some key components, the 4 small screws can be removed using T5 screwdriver. Figured I'd share this info for anyone who'd like to avoid buying the entire expensive switch! Cheers Nicholas

It smells lovely….a little dab behind the ears will make you irresistible to the girls…

Flying south this evening home after visiting the U.S. Space & Rocket Center in Huntsville, Alabama. Highly recommend it!

I think flying at 7,500 or above for an extensive period of time, while maybe not physically noticeable enroute can lead to fatigue and poor decision making, which IS bad ADM. Also, the Rove 6 with the Beechtalk discount was about $1,800 new, arguably not cheap, but for me well worth it for my intended use.

You can't take a tank on a Commercial airplane. You can take an oxygen concentrator. In the past, if I was to be offered a job ferrying a plane from the east coast to the west coast or anywhere in between and it didn't have O2, I wouldn't take the job without being provided a tank. Most Mooneys before the K model don't have built in O2. If I'm not flying my plane to a Mooney PPP when I can bring along a separate tank, then teaching at a high altitude airport like Cheyenne this month and being assigned a student with a C model was perfectly comfortable with the Inogen Rove 6. I know my student appreciated it while we were doing the air work at 9,500 feet. Both of our sats were in the high 90s. By buying the Inogen I paid for both safety and clarity.

Even in the darkest of times, the flickering flame of civilization burns in the most surprising places. I can picture the Little Debbie logo...

The discrepancy list shows that they did a very thorough inspection which is a good thing. Not all of this needs to be fixed immediately, however, to legally and safely return the airplane to service. I would work with the shop to prioritize. A second opinion is always a good idea and I would not expect a reputable shop to object. I have even had shops call in another mechanic for a second opinion when they saw something questionable. Most of the labor estimates don’t seem unreasonable to me based on my experience. It took my mechanic a couple of hours to mount my McCauley prop on the new engine. And he’s done a lot of them. It’s tricky to torque the nuts and safety wiring with .040 wire is difficult with the nuts recessed in the hub. And properly shimming the spinner takes a bit of trial and error. It appears that your new bird has not been all that well maintained. This is not uncommon. I would just sit down with the shop owner/manager and work out a plan of action. This may be a new situation for you, but I guarantee it’s not the first one for the shop. Good luck

@M20GforMe If this hasn't been done, please do this before you do anything else

I’m going to strongly suggest they did not properly check the clearance on those rocker arms properly. If they are as tight and short as suggested, they wouldn’t have made it 800hrs AND you wouldn’t have had good compression.

Agreed, but given some of the information provided I wasn't going to assume that any or all of the work stated actually needed to be done. A squawk list that long for a new owner with a new airplane smells a bit too much like opportunism to me without a second opinion from somebody Mooney-competent. It may be all or mostly legit, but I certainly wouldn't assume that when presented with a large repair estimate on inspection squawks.

I believe reference is to filters for Brittain gyro vacuum lines that they were making by trimming the Fram fuel filters and attaching Brittain p/n stickers on. I have a couple of old filters that I kept for the sticker only. Brittain does not exist anymore and Fram (or similar) is all we can get and that's what I would use on my F. AFIK there are no fuel filters in fuel system just the screens.

I disagree with some posters, especially when it comes to parts. Shops should mark up parts above what they pay for them and it should be a source of profit... they are after all selling the part to the customer. Even though the shop does get parts on discount from sources like Spruce, the shop puts resources into obtaining the parts it's not a free endeavor. I expected the cost of parts to be much higher as it feels like a bigger shop with big markups. Time, method of repair, and whether some of these things are airworthy are subject to debate but we're only seeing the bill (or quote?) without we don't have all the facts. Few shops bill based on actual time spent on the aircraft; tasks are assigned a time in the computer and that's how the bill gets generated. None of us have laid eyes on the aircraft. so we're making educated guesses. The truth is that a lot of owners drop off their airplane at a shop, don't want to be disturbed by making decisions, and expect the shop to fix things as needed to maintain the airplane to a certain standard. When airplanes are dropped off without precise instruction and a clear understanding by both parties, surprise bills are likely to happen. While these squawks do add up, the engine is about to be added to that list. My advice is to sit down with the AI, let him know that you'll pay for his time but want to be educated on the process and discuss how we are going to proceed forward for what has not been fixed. Given the lack of experience from the OP, I would ask to have each issue explained, why it's an airworthiness issue, what are acceptable methods to resolve it, and make a list. The OP should be able to make some decisions on the spot but may need some time to research others. I'm really sorry that you're going through this and the cost of tuition; you may benefit from a service like Mike Bush. The good news is that you can develop a relationship with your AI, and now that you've gone through this experience you'll be a wiser customer. Your airplane is also being brought to your AI standard which should make future annuals easier for everyone. I would not be surprised if the bill doubles before this is over. Post like these make me SO thankful for my IA.

The rockers seem crazy. I would send them out for overhaul. Aircraft Speciality Services reconditions rockers. They charge about $25 each. If they cannot be refurbished, they will find a rebuildable used rocker.

Does a M20G have fuel filters? Maybe it's a ragged out gascolator. Not to sound un-empathetic....but first time aircraft buyers have a large curve to climb. Beyond figuring out what the basic requirements are (capacity, speed, equipment) they must also understand the maintenance needs of airplanes and how to identify problems without completely relying a mechanic that they probably don't know that well. What is unairworthy is sometimes a blurred line. For example: The short flexible hoses in the wheel well of a Piper Arrow landing gear (retract) have a tag on them that indicate 4Q01. These hoses are 24 years old, stiff but no signs of leakage. Some will say they must be replaced, some would say they should be replaced, and others may say 'on condition' - no frays or leaks, let um ride. The real answer seems to depend on the shop your airplane is currently in. Some cases the shop recommends and the owner defers. I haven't seen a 50 year old airplane that doesn't have corrosion somewhere. If its substantial and in the wrong places, it's a problem and expensive. Otherwise, it just gets treated.

What are the dates on the surrounding pages? Records older than a year are not required to be kept. There is no regulatory requirement to keep maintenance records older than one year. Records are also not required to be kept in "logbooks" or even in paper or whatever. The records that are required are just required to be kept as records. They can be written on used napkins as far as the regs are concerned. If the record was older than a year I don't know what basis you'd have for pursuing action against anyone.

Isn't oil pressure affected by RPM, and to a lesser extent temperature? Throttle back to me sounds like @FredG is leaving the blue knob at the cruise setting. With my IO-360A3B6D, I do notice a reduction in oil pressure down to about 60psi when I pull the RPM back (either with the blue knob or by dropping MP so much the prop falls out of governing range), but I do not notice a difference by changing MP alone. By the way, the oil pressure is easily adjustable: 60297-12[1].pdf (Page 109 - Oil Pressure Relief Valve)

It all depends on your wallet. Personally, I would not install a G5. While the G5 is nice, I would personally either just overhaul your AI or spend the extra money and get a GI275 because you get a ton of extra functionality with the 275 that you don't get with the G5.

I fly over to Hillsboro Oregon and Seattle a lot (in a PA46T for work), and that’s generally where you can have a forecast for 800/3 except the dew point and temp appear pretty close and then suddenly it’s 0/0 in fog. Sometimes you’re vmc at the faf but well above the fog. The real bad part is it usually hits all along I5 in Seattle, so your nearest divert is on the east side of the cascades even though there are 6 or 7 airports much closer, they all have the same fog. I’ve crossed back over the mountains twice in the last couple years flying for work. Both times the forecast was reasonably good at the destination and the ceiling just kept falling during the flight. Luckily the weather on the east side of the Cascades is night and day different. In Spokane there’s often an ice fog in winter to come home to. Thankfully it’s typically lowest in the morning so we never leave due to possibly getting ice on the ground, but it’s not fun to come back through. Finally, I’ve been to mins twice now in forest fire smoke when returning to KSFF from trips and hope never to repeat that. I saw only the lead in lights and straight down at DH on the ILS (in my Mooney). breathing was terrible. Forecasting smoke is also terrible, so figuring an alternate is much harder.

My minimums are not a single number. I don’t say, for example, “I won’t fly a precision approach below X feet and Y visibility.” I try to assess flight risk based on a wide range of factors. The FRAT — Flight Risk Assessment Tool — app available for free on the Apple Store is an example of how a number of factors and their interactions are evaluated in concert to estimate the risk of a proposed flight.

Question 1: 500-1, the boundary between IFR and LIFR, is generally the worst forecast I'll accept before leaving if planning to use an ILS (and many LPVs). I think this is the most rational choice many (most?) amateurs who are current and feel proficient - it wasn't listed as a choice here though. Question 2: Once there, I'm sure gonna try it down to minimums (including using the approach lights down to 100ft) if I have good fuel reserves and easy outs that wouldn't be compromised by at least attempting it. I bet this is true of most folks comfortable with a 500-1 forecast. Question 3: The question seems only subtly different from 2, and I bet very few people would break off an approach that they feel well stabilized on before reaching the legal minimums. I think the key when faced with IFR and particularly LIFR conditions at the field upon arriving is having a lower threshold to break off the approach early if everything isn't going perfectly and one gets behind the plane. The survey categories do not capture this key consideration.

If I begin an approach, im happy to go to published mins as long as it’s stable. If it might be close to DH (and there’s a lead in light system), I’ll use the drawing function in ff to write the tdze+100’ altitude on the chart. Ive used that extra ~100’ several times, but I haven’t had to go around at 100agl yet as Ive always picked up the red termination bars or runway before it. I have gone around that low in the sim at annual training… it wasn’t scary there ;). In truth, a stable approach on autopilot at 90-100knots should take ~15 seconds for each 100’ down. It shouldn’t be a “blur” and you should be ready (and willing) to execute the ma as you hit the dh. Below 500’, I usually count out loud each 100’ - “500 to go, 400, 300, 200, 100, mins”. But then I fly single pilot, so it’s just me.

You are free to find a more expensive site you are comfortable with but I bought mine when Pure Medical has a special and paid less than $1500 for my setup with no medicare as I'm still too young for that (though not for long). There is nothing in the documentation that came with the unit that shows a 5 year service life, the only requirement is to replace the canister when the unit tells you it is exhausted. I've used mine many times and it always keeps my SpO2 well into the 90s. Much easier than the bottle I used to use.

This is what many of us use MooneySpace for. I don’t know anyone at my airport with a Mooney, and I don’t know anyone anywhere who owns a Mooney aside from this community. Every time I have a question about anything, I post it here, and it’s been invaluable.

Definitely get a second opinion before pulling the engine. The rockers/case thing makes no sense at all.

Same with some variation. For the destination, depending on where, I will generally plan two alternates. One is to meet the regulatory requirement. The other is where I would really go. They might both be good but they will be where the weather is different, such as one coastal and one inland. Depending on conditions, I may have a third, but this is an enroute alternate - a decision point where I will do a destination weather check and decide whether to continue or divert now.