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I got a little right seat DC3 Time today. It was only about fifteen minutes on the controls. But I will never forget it. I wasn’t expecting the seat time. I was allowed to sit in the jump seat for take off. Once he climbed out and turned West over a lake that is about 35 miles long, the copilot got up and pointed at his seat since I didn’t have a headset. He climbed out and I climbed in, buckled up and put on the headset. The pilot gave me the controls and I finished the climb out while following the winding lake. At the end of it, I did a slow turn 180 and followed the lake back to the airport and descended to pattern altitude where the pilot took it back and landed.It was not nearly as heavy on the controls as I thought it would be, but I didn’t make any hard maneuvers. It felt like I was just hanging at the windscreen since there was no nose to see.A great day!

This is a very touching video made in the plane that I flew. The pilot came for a World War II glider pilot reunion and this video was created. After the event, he was flown home and he died the next day. It was definitely a bucket list flight.

Happy to report that after swapping 3 injectors provided by GAMI, the GAMI spread dropped from 1 gph to .2 gph......I am able to lean the engine to 9 gph running 64% power LOP...hottest jug is 344 and 1536 EGT....TIT dropped down to 1600......

We have an aircraft!

As everyone else has said, this isn't a CG issue. It is a distraction, experience, issue. A good CFI is great, but can also mask issues by fixing them before you notice them. If I were you, I'd go do a bunch of landings by yourself. Solo, with plenty of gas, you'll have options of finding a longer runway. Or even start with a longer runway and get super comfortable. Then go back to your home field and do a bunch on the short runway. There's a reason all training involves solo flight. Go get some practice on your own.

What Anthony said. If there was something off on your CG, how’d you execute a “perfect” fourth landing? Bounces are technique, and usually excess energy. NEVER force the nose down on a Mooney. Nervous passenger, baby on board, trees, short runway ... you had a lot going on in the cockpit. No surprise if it influenced your landing execution. As someone who “Mooney baptized” both kids at 5 weeks, I get it. Either of your baby or your spouse are a huge concern in the cockpit—both is much more than twice the distraction. Try to prevent those distractions and mitigate your risk: Longer runways, no obstacles, develop better energy management, add some tools like mastery of slips, short/soft techniques...and hit the books on the relationship between CG and aerodynamics. With a Mooney-competent CFI, intentionally come in fast to understand how that happens and what to do about it. Sounds like you executed three successful “bounce aborts” so kudos to you. That’s great. Now try to never have another bounce! [emoji41]

I make sure to have at least 5-1/2 qts for local flying, and start trips at 6 to 6-1/2 qts. There's always one in the baggage area (or a partial quart); on ling trips I make sure to have a full one. Even in my short body, there's always room for a full quart and a partial quart.

No problem at all in my m20f. Even landed without a scratch in this field (gear is down, you just can’t see it)

Or for practical considerations- if you need the timer move the iPad. Unlikely that you'll ever shoot a timed approach other than the training environment. If I needed a timer in the airplane I would have to use the GTN or going searching in the G500. I have a clock on the yoke but it's covered by an iPad.

Yes it can , it needs a config module for the MFD

+1 practice practice practice, nice thing about using a longer runway is you can artificially make them shorter by using land marks that match your home field. As you work towards slowing your final approach speeds please keep in mind your pattern turns and don't lose sight of your airspeed and wing loading (AOA) in your turns as this is so important and sadly a frequent cause of tragic accidents by even very experienced pilots. There aren't many things we humans can do where practicing can also be super fun. So go have fun

I haven't read with detail all of the others comments - but I would submit it was the above statement that was the first link in the chain to your "not so perfect" landings. As hard as it is in these situations the passengers are a concern to get on the ground but not the main concern, The main concern is to force yourself to think about your duties and even though they are uncomfortable they will be fine. BTW - I make sure each passenger position has two barf bags courtesy of the big boys..... You experienced "get thereitis in an attempt to get your passengers on the ground in the most expedient way - lucky it was only three sub par landings and not something worse.

Dan, If you think about it there is really no nose drop unless you stall in the flare at 30’ AGL in which case you have bigger problems. You are correct in your aerodynamic analysis of a stall but you’re magnifying the rate the nose drop happens in an unrealistic way. If you’ve ever done or seen a full stall, three point landing in a taildragger you will witness an exaggerated version of what I’m talking about. The plane will just pancake in if you maintain nose up elevator. When the nose falls in a power off stall The first 10 to 15 feet or more of drop are more of a flat mush. It doesn’t feel or look that way in the air because you have no point of reference. Any pronounced nose drop happens after you’ve lost way more altitude than what would be considered in the realm of normal for a flare. The only time I get a bounce when I’m on speed is on a gusty day when A gust of wind foils my touchdown. Mooney gear are not that springy. I’ve been picked up I’ve been picked up and slammed back down when the bottom fell out of the gust. The plane stays planted. In the video that I linked (which I also made) the aircraft is fully stalled on the runway in ground effect as it touches down. While you can’t see the elevator, I know that it was nearly full aft to hold the nose off. The takeoff following the touch and go actually required me to relax back pressure as I added in throttle to maintain the proper lift off attitude. Proper speed and attitude (read pitch control) are the keys to avoiding a bounce. Keep the nose up until it stops flying and it’s only going to touch down once, how softly depends on execution and luck. Sometimes mother nature will throw in a strong gust to thoroughly screw up the best laid plans!

I think I have enough clocks.

Looks like the old site is back (at least for now) and I can see full information on the orders. I found the old orders. I initially ordered 5' (it is 48" wide) to do the ceiling while I was repairing the fresh air duct. It which was more than enough to do the ceiling. I probably could have done it with 4'. About a year later I ordered another 4' and did the sides and the ceiling above the baggage area. When it had SB 208 done the insulation that was used looks like a very thin styrofoam type material and it was only along the lower half of the sides. The upper part of the sides (just under the windows) had what was basically paper with some reflective material which seemed to provide little to no insulating properties. This made a huge difference in the comfort of the cabin and the temperature of the interior trim when you touch it. If you are wanting to do the entire cabin I think that 8' would get the job done, probably even 7'. It is really easy to trim with a pair of scissors and keep in mind that doing the sides you don't need a big continuous piece as you are going to trim it to fit in the spaces between the tubes for the cage so just keep all the scraps as you go along and you will have very little waste.

Mooney lands beautiful with aft CG. Key is to think in terms of AOA instead of strictly speed.

Mike is correct here. We cannot host copyrighted materials here on Mooneyspace.

Ha! A 200hp E will do that at gross (with little margin) at sea level. If you dive into the numbers, I think you’ll find that the vintage 4 cylinder machines get up, off and out faster than most of the high horsepower brethren when operated at what would be considered useable weights.

We operate a long body O2 off grass in Aus. A lot of Mooney guys here would -the tar strips can be few and far between. No real issues except you do lose elevator authority when you get slow so need to get it right first time and catch the mains to look after the front. We have 800 feet of tar on one runway (YCAB) which we take any time we can. Can get off one up and light without using the grass but haven't managed to land on it yet ! I don't have any grass numbers in our POH so when I was doing my XL sheet I used these factors for ground roll - once you are off it doesn't matter: https://www.experimentalaircraft.info/flight-planning/aircraft-performance-7.php - I'd stay away from the long wet grass Anthony @carusoam my numbers come out to close to your book for short dry grass - certainly within the margin for error for the graphical/fat finger method ! Off POH Graph Takeoff Distance 1539 ft Takeoff Dist (50') 2928 ft Surface Dry short grass 1.1 Takeoff Distance 1693 ft Takeoff Dist (50') 3082 ft PatrickF

Not a great angle, but this is the one I flew today. It actually is a C47 that was converted to DC3 configuration after the war. The current owner bought it and then discovered that it was involved in every parachute drop in the European theatre during the war.

I would suggest that you go with the approved A1A engine from the TCDS. What is driving your desire for a 3 bladed prop? Is it the extra weight or the speed loss that you find appealing?

Pinnacle at CRQ has an M20J for rent. They might even sell it to you... To answer your second question, Top Gun at SCK are well regarded Mooney experts and I would highly recommend them. When I bought my plane I called them and asked if they knew of any planes for sale and they gave me a couple of promising leads. As far as instructors go, @donkaye in San Jose and @kortopates in San Diego are pretty exceptional. You’ll have a hard time finding better Mooney instructors than these guys.

yes, yes it is.

I have a rotating wrist. It’s pretty easy to use. It’s very intuitive. I just think it and it rotates the way I want it to be.

The 231 was at Advantage, yes. It was listed just a few months ago. You may want to call them on the phone and ask if they can set you up with a CFI who can give you an hour or two of dual. As I understand it, it almost never flew, either by the owner or anybody else. It's possible a flight could be arranged as an "off the menu" item if you ask.

1) If it stops flying at 5’ agl.... It is partially flying still, the root of the wing stalls first, so the acceleration towards the ground is quite strong... If/when you experience this.... full throttle may slow the effect... you just run out of time to get the power developing... Gear doors get checked to see how compressed things got during the crash landing... 2) If the Mooney gets forced onto the pavement... before it is ready to do so on its own.... This guarantees hitting nose first, then mains.... often by just inches... Initiating the Porpoise... The Porpoise is a divergent experience.... each one getting worse and stronger... 3) The purpose of the porpoise discussion.... This is AKA the nose gear compression test... And prop tip impact strength test... Both of these result in the tear down experience... To avoid the porpoise... expeditiously initiate the Go-around... See earlier discussion on the bounce and go... 4) Experienced and Current pilots avoid the porpoise... by avoiding the off speed landings... if the bounce occurs, it is a sign of not being current... few people bounce landings enough to practice saving the landing after the bounce... so the proper response is to just go around... you prove to yourself when things are not working in the moment... it’s not time to invent something new.... The dynamics of controlling the plane after the bounce makes for interesting physics discussions... in the regime where the control surfaces are getting really week... 5) For fun... go to a Mooney fly-in. See all the variations that occur when a dozen Mooneys come in... getting there early.... Maximizes the number of landings you can witness minimizes the number of witnesses around to see my bounce and go technique.... My favorite Mooney CFII complimented my decision making skill... (I showed up late, many MSers have witnessed) PP shared experiences only, not a CFI... Best regards, -a-

Quick, invite @gsxrpilot and @Marauder expect they may have looked at this Aspen install option... Technically it would work well, because it has all of the internal parts necessary to do both jobs... getting all the unlock codes may cost some... Where it might have a challenge... does the paper work cover it being used this way... Sometimes trading down is almost as easy as trading up... but know before you acquire the device... @Alan Fox might have an Aspen come through the shop every now and then... Wish we still had our Aspen guy... Best regards, -a-

The term "bounce" with regard to the Mooney airframe is a bit of a misnomer. I can assure that a Mooney will only "bounce" if it is still flying. You are likely 1) touching down faster than you need and 2) not delivering the plane to the runway at the appropriate attitude and rate of descent. My recommendation is to find a long runway and practice power off, mains only landings (I do T&Gs but I won't recommend that here for fear of being flamed). You could start by practicing "flying the nose" on a big wide runway. This is to say taxiing fast enough to raise the nose wheel but not lift off. Given your time in type, probably a good idea to have an instructor on board. Also, 65KIAS is plenty across the threshold even at gross. As an aside you can see how a 200hp Mooney climbs with full flaps from 1:27 to 1:43.

+1 on that Some of the things you say kill me, Anthony!

It is almost always a good idea to consider a "run out" engine, if it is running alright. You might get many more hours before the need for an OH. But naturally, this is far from the only consideration.

Next time try aerodynamic braking instead—hold the yoke BACK and try to keep the nosewheel off the ground. Steer with rudder. Many of the things that happen in the air are predictable and can be mitigated or avoided completely on the ground. For example, BEFORE you take off, calculate a “go around point” by which, no exceptions, you will add power and go around if you’ve not planted both mains on the runway at a target speed. This calculation should provide adequate takeoff distance with margins under actual conditions, including likely effects of trees near a runway. After you’ve done this, if you’re at or before your go around point with the mains on, you’ve done the calcs and know you’re good to land. No need to stress and force anything. If you’re not, go around and try again. Practicing is great, but not having to exercise your skill to get out of a bind because you kept yourself out of it is much, much more rewarding.

Chris, That list came from my first memories of learning to fly an M20C... Every flight had a different mission, and a different WnB.... Insurance wouldn’t allow passengers until I had 20hrs... First passenger was my wife... one new person to flying at a time... if you bring two people that are new to flying, you can get overwhelmed while trying to fly.... The more weight brought along, the more challenges to being on speed occurred.... Avoiding bounces, needs dissipating the last bits of speed while being a foot above the runway... When too fast... the bounce occurs... the pilot didn’t dissipate the excess energy... Dissipating the energy takes about 100’ per mias of excess... Find Don Kaye’s Mooney landing video... it is all about energy management under different conditions.... Being on speed, and bouncing... indicates something amiss in the description... On Speed for what, where? Also, one thing that happens... Mothers want to be with their children in the back seat... how far back was that Cg? Are you really skilled with you WnB calculations? I used to fly my M20C with a family of four into 5B6, 2.3k’ long... to be on speed and altitude on short final was pretty close to the trees.... Use caution while understanding my writing... i’m Not a very good writer... PP thoughts only, not a CFI... Best regards, -a-

click on the order number, will show what was on that order, from there you can print the invoice seeing Spruce only sends a packing list which doesn't have prices

@carusoam - Crossed info - we are at sea level (40') at YCAB ! 800 foot of tar is just enough to get off if I'm solo with about 25 gallons on board - and not much else. And the sea breeze is usually good for a few kts. Grass at 5000' - now that would be a different game ! One advantage we do have here - we are pretty flat. I did the calc at 5000 to check my numbers against yours for the grass chart you have and it seems to match pretty well - which gives me some confidence on the factors quoted on that web site. regards

I can see orders and invoice from 2 years ago on my PC...not sure I like the new site, it kinda sucks

Yes, I returned to Dynon and they gave me a somewhat discounted price for the D3. After all the trouble with the D2 I didn't think it was worth going with a repaired discounted unit and they realized that as well.

Mistake #1!!! Putting a pen to paper in regards to a Overpowered Mooney. thats a huge NoNo....lol

I would be interested if they hooked up to my current M20F yoke shafts and looked close to J yokes.

9 Gallons? Are you running a big radial on your O?

When it gets below 5 quarts I add a quart. Anything above 6 goes thru the blow by. O-360.

Matt, Check In with Marauder’s writing on the subject... As it was his JPI that was doing it... Might be a similar situation and fix... Best regards, -a-

You have a clock/timer, the Davtron. So you're legal. Now use a timer on the iPad or your watch to time approaches and holds.

In the winter during cold temperatures I'll let mine go down to 5 1/2 or so. JPI oil pressure and temperature stay rock solid in cruise.

Was doing just that this weekend as well. Took my son to Miami of Ohio where he will start grad school in August. Beautiful campus. Miami University airport KOXD, just 1.5 miles from his new apartment. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Not this Grumman.....oh, you were talking about his little brothers.... Cheers, Brian

This behavior is consistent with mine before they discovered the prop wasn't bolted securely to the engine and was chucking around a bit. Essentially made it impossible to balance. I had come in for a static balance and they discovered the issue while removing the propeller. As noted by others, could be a bunch of causes, wind, ignition, fuel, busted motor mount (though I'd think they could find that fast.)

It’s strange we are talking about this. i just attempted to balance a Fellow MS drivers Mooney yesterday, an had something happen that had never happened to be before in 14yrs an several 100 Propellers. Balance started at .83 ips an balanced down to .07 ips in 4 runs an a verify run. Bring the spectrum down that much I would expect the Driver to be able to tell a real HUGE difference..... WRONG!!! Said it is shaking more(or different) now. Should Be Hearing Back From Chadwick-Helmuth Tomorrow on this situation. Now to the OP question: When you have issues that having you moving weights all over, basically working around the entire arch of the Propeller, it’s been my experience the propeller needs to be Re-Static Balanced, Or the Hub has been over services with grease(Hartzell), Or the Red-Oil Level inside the hub is Low(McCauley). Any of the 3 will create a Balance issue. Without a good a Static Balance, it won’t ever Dynamic Balance. When a Balance machine starts giving a Tech conflicted information, it’s time to stop. You have to understand where the machine gets it’s info from. Comes from the accelerometer on top of the engine, an if there is no repeatability then something is changing with every start.

An update, in case it might help someone else in the future. I only just discovered that my EDM 700 also stores the voltage data, so I looked at the data for the last 7 months and the voltage output reduced from 13.3 to 12.8 over the time period and was occasionally dropping to 12.3 on the flight described above (at which point the Aspen would run off battery and low voltage light would flicker). Anyway, it seems that if alternator output is below 13.5 volts the alternator output is considered too low. Ideally I should have run a multimeter from the back of the alternator to be certain, but as the alternator is at least 15 years old I decided to replace it anyway so my A&P installed a new replacement this morning. Test flight was fine with the JPI showing between 13.8 and 14 volts, and Savvy Analysis showed the same so I’m calling this resolved. These engine data monitors are a godsend, I don’t know how we managed without them...

I found the gravity button in Alan’s house... it just needed to be pushed... thank god I arrived on time...