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Upgrade M20C to M20E Possible?

Seth

By Seth
in Vintage Mooneys (pre-J models)

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Seth Grand Master

Seth

Posted
Posted

I have a pilot aquaintance who flies a Cessna 172 and was wonderfing if it is possible to install a 200 HP fuel injected engine into an M20C airframe.  Basically, upgrade a C to an E. 

 

I thought abou this and let him know that unless he can do the work himself, and he gets a runout C at a very very low cost, then maybe it could be worth it.  Otherwise, buy an E and fix it up yourself.

 

But back to the question, since one is a C and the other is an E, is it possible to upgrade an M20C to and M20E?  Not is it possible, but is it legally possible and has anyone conducted  or completed such an endevour?

 

-Seth

 

P.S. Yes Alex, he was thinking about your C model.

KSMooniac Grand Master

KSMooniac

Posted
Posted

Legally possible but doesn't even remotely make economic sense these days. There was an STC that I believe is dormant, so a field approval would be needed. Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2

Sabremech Veteran

Sabremech

Posted
Posted

Since the 200 HP engine is listed on the TCDS, it can be done. The paperwork won't be as easy as the engine change itself.

 David

KSMooniac Grand Master

KSMooniac

Posted
Posted

The 200HP engine isn't listed on the TC for the M20C model.  I would agree that doing the work will be easier than getting the approval, though, provided one has all of the parts already available.

  • Like 2
Sabremech Veteran

Sabremech

Posted
Posted

The M20 series of Mooney's carry the same TC, 2A3. This can be used as a basis for approval for a modification of the 200 hp from an E to a C. Like I said, it won't be an easy swap paperwork wise, but it is possible and the engine listed on the TC even for the E model will help greatly.

 David

Hank Grand Master

Hank

Posted
Posted

Possible? Yes.

 

Practical? Certainly not.

 

My question is why would you want to? Surely there are good E's for sale. Unless you're an A&P in search of a project, or maybe an A&P student in search of work to apply towards the certificate requirements and would rather have something to show for it when you're done?

 

The O-360 is stone simple, bullet proof and has no hot-start issues. I made ten flights on Saturday, most of them were shut down, unload and reload passengers, crank back up. Maybe 5 minutes or less of rest, my headset and seatbelt never touched. Try that with an E. My prop never turned more than 1½ revolutions except the one time I tried to crank up with the throttle at Idle and mixture at Cut Off . . .

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jetdriven Grand Master

jetdriven

Posted
Posted

I know a guy who had a 1971 M20C with the IO-360 200 HP on it.  Some airline pilot that owned it for many years did that conversion, and all the LASAR speed mods as well. It must have been much easier and cheaper to do this 20 years ago. Not really possible now, unless you have a bad O-360 engine and a crashed M20E to swap all the parts.

danb35 Mentor

danb35

Posted
Posted

I made ten flights on Saturday, most of them were shut down, unload and reload passengers, crank back up. Maybe 5 minutes or less of rest, my headset and seatbelt never touched. Try that with an E. 

I did it in my F, does that count?  OK, it was only 7 flights instead of 10, but I think the point is made.  I'll admit, though, that the prop did turn more than 1.5 revolutions before the engine started...

 

I agree that it's unlikely to be a practical project, but the E is widely considered to be more desirable than the C, thus higher average prices.  And why not?  Twenty more HP in the same airframe with the same fuel burn is a winner any way you look at it.

  • Like 1
danb35 Mentor

danb35

Posted
Posted

The M20 series of Mooney's carry the same TC, 2A3. This can be used as a basis for approval for a modification of the 200 hp from an E to a C. 

How far can this go, and what other paperwork would be required?  I assume you couldn't just do a logbook entry that says "Removed engine.  Installed IO-360-A1A engine S/N xxx IAW TCDS 2A3".  If the common TCDS is the basis for approval, can I use that as a basis to install a TSIO-360-MB on my F?  How about the 550s for the Ovation or the Acclaim?  I'm pretty sure the answer is no to both of those, but how is the line determined?

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Hank Grand Master

Hank

Posted
Posted

There's more to it than the engine & accessories that must be changed. At least the lower cowl, maybe the top, too. Fuel pump, injectors, etc. Engine mounts, spider, intake . . . .

Surely it would be easier, faster and cheaper to sell the C and buy an E? To say nothing of the extra headaches.

Sabremech Veteran

Sabremech

Posted
Posted

Hi Dan, since the C and the E are almost identical except for the engine the TCDS will be used in a 337 for the basis of approval. Different approved engine on the identical airframe. It will be substantially more than a logbook entry, but the need to prove it will fit and perform correctly is already done by having the TCDS. There are limits as to what is practical to use or what the FAA will allow as approval basis such as the other engine swaps you mentioned.

It certainly isn't practical and an easier method would be to buy the C with speed mods like mine and cruise right with an E with 20 less HP.

David

Seth Grand Master

Seth

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Thanks for the replies. The individual interested is thinking of buying a C and upgrading it over the years himself.

Not me.

-Seth

Hank Grand Master

Hank

Posted
Posted

Just make sure all the non-engine/non-engine-accessory parts are available before buying the engine . . . My C has a nice "chin" on the lower cowl to clear the carburetor, but E's don't. Air filter & landing light location are not necessarily the same,either. What else is different on the front end?

 

Note that some C's have adjustable cowl flaps, but on my C the cowl flaps are fixed. More parts to buy for the conversion, from the flaps up to the lever and a place to mount it in the cockpit. The devil is in the details . . .

  • 10 years later...
Oscar Avalle Grand Master

Oscar Avalle

Posted
Posted

I am in the process of doing the upgrade based on the LASAR STC. I got a 0 time IO 360 for a very good price. So I decided to go for it...

You need: new cowling upper and lower (E model), new engine mount, new electric fuel pump, prop, mix and Throttle cables and I am not sure about the air intake. 

Once I get all the parts I will proceed with the upgrade and report back...

Oscar

  • Like 2
M20F Grand Master

M20F

Posted
Posted

All practical with a good DER, those are a bit hard to find these days.  I would recommend a Colt.  Solid airplane.  

Hank Grand Master

Hank

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, M20F said:

All practical with a good DER, those are a bit hard to find these days.  I would recommend a Colt.

In ,45 ACP.? Would hollow points ir dumdums provide more "interest" from the DER?

And what do you have against Smith & Wesson, Ruger, Taurus, etc.?

  • Haha 1
Pinecone Grand Master

Pinecone

Posted
Posted
On 6/12/2013 at 6:49 AM, danb35 said:

How far can this go, and what other paperwork would be required?  I assume you couldn't just do a logbook entry that says "Removed engine.  Installed IO-360-A1A engine S/N xxx IAW TCDS 2A3".  If the common TCDS is the basis for approval, can I use that as a basis to install a TSIO-360-MB on my F?  How about the 550s for the Ovation or the Acclaim?  I'm pretty sure the answer is no to both of those, but how is the line determined?

That is pretty much what you do to upgrade a 252 to Encore spec.  You reference the two drawings that are different.

Shadrach Grand Master

Shadrach

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, SheryLoewen said:

Engine upgrade

 LASAR does have an STC to put a 200 hp engine in a M20C.  $30,000 would be an estimate to have this done.  But Why??

One reason would be getting a great deal on a low time, IO360.

Another would be the wider range of mixture options and increased efficiency.

Yet another would be that the angle valves run much cooler than the parallel valve and rarely require step climbs or power reductions on the way to cruise altitude.

As a bonus you get the added climb performance of the 11% horsepower jump and a few knots in cruise.

Why did you all pursue the STC if you did not think it worthwhile?

EricJ Grand Master

EricJ

Posted
Posted
On 11/5/2023 at 10:43 AM, Oscar Avalle said:

I am in the process of doing the upgrade based on the LASAR STC. I got a 0 time IO 360 for a very good price. So I decided to go for it...

You need: new cowling upper and lower (E model), new engine mount, new electric fuel pump, prop, mix and Throttle cables and I am not sure about the air intake. 

Once I get all the parts I will proceed with the upgrade and report back...

Oscar

I'm sure you're on it, but you'll need engine instruments marked for the IO-360 as well.   Fuel pressure, rpm, etc., change.

Oscar Avalle Grand Master

Oscar Avalle

Posted
Posted
On 11/6/2023 at 3:48 PM, EricJ said:

I'm sure you're on it, but you'll need engine instruments marked for the IO-360 as well.   Fuel pressure, rpm, etc., change.

Good point once I get all the hardware I will send in my JPI 900 to have it reprogramed 

 

Oscar

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