Present state and future direction of GA

[b65cuda]

Further research according to  a post on POA with a detailed cost breakdown, and an article from APOA, average cost nowadays seems to be around $10k. Seems people trained a decade before I did paid more than I did, so I feel fortunate. I also realise access to instructors and planes would be better in Phoenix where I trained vs Yuma where i live now. Makes me wonder again why the cost of a hangar here is over $500/month, instructors demand such high prices, and plane rentals are so expensive. 

Edited September 2, 2018 by b65cuda

[N201MKTurbo]

21 minutes ago, b65cuda said:

Further research according to  a post on POA with a detailed cost breakdown, and an article from APOA, average cost nowadays seems to be around $10k. Seems people trained a decade before I did paid more than I did, so I feel fortunate. I also realise access to instructors and planes would be better in Phoenix where I trained vs Yuma where i live now. Makes me wonder again why the cost of a hangar here is over $500/month, instructors demand such high prices, and plane rentals are so expensive. 

Wow, I must be getting old. I got my Private in ‘82. The plane cost $23/hr wet. The instructor was $15/ hour. I took ground school at the junior college for $75 plus about $50 for books, charts and plotters. I took my check ride after 46 hours. I don’t have a calculator, but it was about $1500.

Now, that multi ATP cost me 10k in the airplane that cost $4/min!

[Jerry 5TJ]

Adding to cost is the number of hours an average student needs to get to the private checkride.  

My neighbor, a capable guy in his 40s and no slouch intellectually, has been working on his private ticket recently.  He’s near 20 hours dual and has yet to solo.  

I hear that’s typical in this area.  The nearby SFRA, towered field ops, radio procedures, basic G1000 use plus the old stick and rudder skills all add hours to the pre-solo curriculum.  

He's paying around  $175 an hour for a G1000 Cessna 172 and another $55 for instructors.  

Money is not a big issue for him but I sense his frustration. He’s already spent $5K and hasn’t gotten the thrilling satisfaction of a solo flight.  

Even if a student pilot does not have money worries the time and complexity to get a PPL are off-putting.  Add the turnover in instructors at the flight school due to pilot hiring and I can see why only a determined person gets a PPL.  

There are success stories.  Here’s one: I mentored an acquaintance over the last few years on his PPL, upgrade to instrument rating and use of a plane in his business travel.  In 3 years he went from a Piper Saratoga to a Mirage to a new M600.  

Obviously neither of these fellows is a kid washing airplanes in exchange for a ride.  But each is arguably a more typical GA pilot of the future than is a youngster soloing a no-radio Cub out of a grass field.  

[mike_elliott]

21 hours ago, EricJ said:

that have discovered racing as a much cheaper alternate outlet from aviation.

uhhhh.....they arent telling the truth. 1 RMU=42.7 AMU's back in the 70's and its worse now.

[McMooney]

my ppl cost about 4k in 2003.  42 hours logged, passed the checkride, but spread it out so long, I actually felt the exponential rise in pricing.

I started at calevaras airport, 67$ plane  25$ instructor

got tired of driving switched to Livermore airport,  90$ plane, 30$ instructor

life and move to florida about 6 mos

Orlando executive 110$ plane, 35$ instructor

 

I think we're all culpable for the current state of GA. 

Pilots are accepting and some even proud of outrageous pricing( it's safety, it's aviation, if you don't have it get out )

Lawyers/courts/lawsuits

Vendors ( esp Garmin )  -- come on 10k for a gps that is barely as capable as my Samsung tablet?  120$ for rubber disc?

[Bravoman]

57 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Adding to cost is the number of hours an average student needs to get to the private checkride.  

My neighbor, a capable guy in his 40s and no slouch intellectually, has been working on his private ticket recently.  He’s near 20 hours dual and has yet to solo.  

I hear that’s typical in this area.  The nearby SFRA, towered field ops, radio procedures, basic G1000 use plus the old stick and rudder skills all add hours to the pre-solo curriculum.  

He's paying around  $175 an hour for a G1000 Cessna 172 and another $55 for instructors.  

Money is not a big issue for him but I sense his frustration. He’s already spent $5K and hasn’t gotten the thrilling satisfaction of a solo flight.  

Even if a student pilot does not have money worries the time and complexity to get a PPL are off-putting.  Add the turnover in instructors at the flight school due to pilot hiring and I can see why only a determined person gets a PPL.  

There are success stories.  Here’s one: I mentored an acquaintance over the last few years on his PPL, upgrade to instrument rating and use of a plane in his business travel.  In 3 years he went from a Piper Saratoga to a Mirage to a new M600.  

Obviously neither of these fellows is a kid washing airplanes in exchange for a ride.  But each is arguably a more typical GA pilot of the future than is a youngster soloing a no-radio Cub out of a grass field.  

I have heard that instructors are not soloing students until very late these days, like 25-30 hrs. Why is that? Back in the day when I got my ticket in the late 80s I believe typical was 14-15, and sometimes much less. 

[Bob_Belville]

I do not remember what I paid in 1969 for a PPL. I do recall that the PA28-140 that the flying club I joined as soon as I had my ticket cost $8/hr wet. I suppose the C150 I trained in was well under $20 wet and I doubt that the young CFI got more than $10. I took the check ride with 40 hours TT, half solo, so all in I suppose it was about $1000. That was at BNA, a fairly busy airport even then. 

[MyNameIsNobody]

9 hours ago, Skates97 said:

I got mine in 2016 and it was right about $8,000 all in, materials, flight time, written test prep, and fee to the DPE, everything.

As for popcorn, microwave just isn't the same. Grew up with Sunday afternoon after church consisting of popcorn and football or whatever other sport was on. When the Stir Crazy popper came out and you didn't have to shake it anymore to keep it from burning that was a game changer. (I did learn to make it on the stove and did so for two years as a missionary, couldn't afford to buy the popper and take it with me from one assigned area to the next). I still make popcorn almost every Sunday afternoon, I'm on about my 3rd or 4th Stir Crazy popper in the last 25 years.

Calories and waistline and an aging metabolism NOT laziness made me change from my beloved stir-Krazy to microwave.  Sigh...

I remember going to movies with my now 27 year old daughter.  We would be through our second large tub BEFORE start of movie.  Ahhhhhhh, the good old days when waistlines were stagnant and you didn’t wonder if you were going to get shot for going to a movie.  Glad you can still enjoy Sunday games.  SJ warriors ruined movies and Pro football.  I am sure Saturdays are next.  I would block that  ScottfromIowa too.  What a dick.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

uhhhh.....they arent telling the truth. 1 RMU=42.7 AMU's back in the 70's and its worse now.

I still do both, I'd flip that relationship more or less.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

I do not remember what I paid in 1969 for a PPL. I do recall that the PA28-140 that the flying club I joined as soon as I had my ticket cost $8/hr wet. I suppose the C150 I trained in was well under $20 wet and I doubt that the young CFI got more than $10. I took the check ride with 40 hours TT, half solo, so all in I suppose it was about $1000. That was at BNA, a fairly busy airport even then. 

The year was 1967.  The price of a Cessna 150 wet for training was $8/hour.  The instructor cost another $10/hour.  My Commercial Checkride  in 1969 was $35.  I don't remember the Private Checkride charge.  While times have changed, where there is a will there is a way.  It's just up to your imagination.  Much of my airplane maintenance has been paid for through flight instructing.  What could be a better trade if you love flying?  Recently I traded flight instruction for aircraft maintenance.  I built time in the early days ferrying airplanes, got lots of real world weather experience, and got paid for it.  Later I was introduced into the world of huge audience rock band tours by being the flight instructor of one of the lead band members.  I even got to meet and train with Victor on the Mooney "Down Under Tour" in Australia a few years ago.  What a trip that was!  You never know exactly where life will take you, but putting yourself into the "stream of action" can lead to some pretty exciting places.

[mike_elliott]

16 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I still do both, I'd flip that relationship more or less.

I suppose it depends on the level you race at. If autocross or off road, maybe so. Back in the mid 70's I would spend more on tires than I currently spend on a hangar in Fl, insurance and annual.

[Raptor05121]

2 hours ago, Bravoman said:

I have heard that instructors are not soloing students until very late these days, like 25-30 hrs. Why is that? Back in the day when I got my ticket in the late 80s I believe typical was 14-15, and sometimes much less. 

Because with the new "1200 hours" ruling, these 21-year-old CFIs are needing time to get to the airlines. Are they milking students? I don't think so, but I do think its a combination of the fact of larger airports = longer taxi times, holding for takeoff, the flight out to the training area before you've even begun maneuvers, and then all in reverse. 2.0 logged with less than 20 minutes doing basic maneuvers and combined with the fact these CFIs are not intent on training, they lack the passion. It seems students average 2-4 instructors before receiving their PPL, and there is an overlap when a new one takes over.

2015 I learned to fly in a 152 on a grass strip with my CFIs hangar about 150 yards from the runway. The plane was $65/hr dry, he charged me $40/hr. Plus gas the airplane was about $125/hr all-in. When I flew solo, I paid the $65/dry rate in cash and then tried to tanker to cheap fuel airports as much as possible with my credit card. I considered myself a quick learner and once all my required dual was complete I just flew. I loved cross country flying. Got up high, leaned that little O-235 out and just pounced from cheap gas stop to cheap gas stop (CFI pre-approved XCs, of course). During my oral, I think I had 6 total cross countries and my DPE was astounded with only 41 hours in my logbook. I guess my CFI should've seen it coming that I'd be a Mooniac.

Started Jan 2015, licensed May 2015. Total cost $4,500.

[Mooney in Oz]

12 hours ago, Skates97 said:

I got mine in 2016.....

 

1 hour ago, Raptor05121 said:

2015 I learned to fly in a 152 on a grass strip.....

Both of you achieved owning a Mooney in 2018, if not earlier.

Although I know we all have financial and other constraints that is a remarkable achievement and passion.

It took me 16 years after I flew my first Mooney until I was able to purchase mine.  If it was possible, I would've done it much sooner.

[Hank]

My PPL in 2006-07 totalled around 5K; checkride was at 52 hours. The 172 was $90/hour, CFI $30, with 10% off if I bought 10-hour blocks. DPE was ~$350? Five weeks post-PPL, I wrote a check for half of the Mooney and a huge insurance check. Second year insurance fell by half, no change 3rd year; then got serious and finished Instruments in 2011 (DPE had gone up to $450) and saved another third on insurance. Meanwhile, bought out my partner so she's all mine . . . .

The joys of getting into aviation as an adult with a good job, a mortgage and a healthy 401k. I was working as a Development Engineer for a medical device manufacturer, going to night school to get my Masters of Engineering and flying on weekends. Have no interest in being an airline pilot, the road warrior life doesn't appeal to me. Maybe because I moved so often growing up? When I finished my PPL in my mid-40s, I was in Town #22; now I'm in #24 and hope it's the last.

 

[0TreeLemur]

The shirt on the wall reminds me that I soloed 6/29/1981 with about 12 h under my belt.   The total cost of my PPL training was about $2500 when I finished in Sept. 1981 with about 40 h.  

Because of life getting in the way with kids/jobs/moves/etc I have had two huge decadal gaps in my flying career.   When I moved here to Tuscaloosa last year I decided to resume flying after last PIC in 2007.   I did a BFR check-ride last June in an early 2000's model C172, the rental cost was $158/h wet!!!   That seemed ridiculously high to me for 117 kts.   Looking at what that C172 cost new, I guess that is what they must charge.   Coincidentally, that is when I discovered the Mooney. 

The instructor who gave me the BFR check ride  told me he had a Mooney and that he was looking to sell her.  I asked for a ride, and was hooked from there on out.   I calculate my cost of flying her, including the approximate cost of the engine overhaul she'll need in about 600 h (knock on wood) is $140/h wet. 

I never thought I would be able to afford an a/c.   As an academic, my salary was just never going to support that hobby.  But, two things happened- kids grew up and went out on their own.  Second, the leading edge of the Baby Boom started getting too old to fly which has created a large supply of older a/c on the market at remarkably affordable prices because of relatively low demand for certain aircraft like the Mooney.  

"Ain't if funny how time slips away"  -Willie Nelson

[0TreeLemur]

One other aspect that strikes me is related to the age of our aircraft.  There is a "musical chairs" aspect to owning what is essentially a museum piece.   Remember when you could get (still can get?) classic license plates for cars > 25 y.o.?   As our aircraft approach or exceed twice that limit, the likelihood that some annual turns up a really expensive problem or that some expensive SB or AD is issued increases, probably with some rapidity.   You might own something that isn't worth fixing.   Happens all the time with incidents thanks to our insurance companies.  That fact will prevent the value of our a/c from rising too much or too fast.    May the music never stop on your watch... 

[McMooney]

would agree, the one thing that helped me was getting the kids out of my pocket.  I estimate the cost of flying my m20e 100 hours per year to be approx. 110$/hr

compared to about 140$ rental rate, I WIN.

				50	75	100	150	200
	375	12	4500	4500	4500	4500	4500	4500
	0	12	0	0	0	0	0	0
			1100	1100	1100	1100	1100	1100
10	10	5.64	56.4	2820	4230	5640	8460	11280
			5656.4	8420	9830	11240	14060	16880
				168.4	131.06667	112.4	93.73333	84.4

[0TreeLemur]

@McMooney could you rent the equivalent of your E for that?    I imagine that if so, it would be difficult to find?

[ShuRugal]

On 5/30/2013 at 7:35 PM, Rwsavory said:

I think that once the economy improves, particularly real estate values, we will see some more vitality to GA.

You must be joking.  Cost of real-estate is part of what's driving the insane inflation these last 20 years.  I don't know anyone in my age group who can afford a house right now, most can barely afford apartments.  If that went up, it would put luxuries like aviation that much further out of reach, not breath new life into it.

[steingar]

The golden age of general aviation is right now gents. The costs are little more than yesteryear when adjusted for inflation (energy prices are very inexpensive at the moment) and there is a surfeit of airworthy airframes available for sale. One can have unparalleled situational awareness with inexpensive consumer electronics and something with which to bring in the ADSB signal. The dreaded 3rd class medical has been defanged, and all sorts of wonderful gadgets from the experimental world have made their was into our certificates airframes. Now you can have luxuries like a glass panel or a capable autopilot for a fraction of what these devices cost in the past.

Flying has always been expensive. If someone recalls it as otherwise I suggest the March straight to their physician and seek treatment for their oncoming dementia.

[Skates97]

I agree, if someone wants to get into General Aviation now is the time.

About 2 1/2 years ago my wife and I were talking about some friends of ours at church and she mentioned that he was a pilot and had his own plane. My reaction was "What, how can he afford a plane?" I knew what he did for a living and while he did well, I didn't think it was well enough to have a plane. I was talking to him the next week and asked how long he had been flying. The answer, about 30 years. I asked what kind of plane he had and he told me a Mooney. I had to look up what it was because I had never heard of one before.

I have wanted to fly as long as I have memories but always thought it was beyond my reach financially. After talking with my friend I started doing some real research on the costs and decided that it actually was financially possible. One ride in his Mooney and I was hooked on them.

It is all a matter of priorities. People at work are amazed that I have my own plane, yet we have customers come in every day and buy vehicles that are $50-100k. Those same people that think owning a plane is extravagant don't think a thing about that person buying a Corvette or a Cadillac Escalade. Then again, I still have to pinch myself sometimes to remind me that this isn't a dream. I actually own a plane and can fly it, dreams do come true.

[steingar]

It was a chat with a colleague that made me realize I had just enough wherewithal to indulge my childhood dream.  I wanted a Mooney the first time I heard about them.  Took bloody ten years.

[Oldguy]

I came into flying later in life and got my PPL at 49. Soloed at 13.7 hours but life got in the way and it took another year to finish. Got the IR a few years back and considering the CPL in 2019, depending on work and available time.

I have to agree with many of the comments above: it is a matter of priorities and what you value spending your available funds on. It is also at what point in your life you find yourself, and what your (and your S.Os.) tolerance for risk is. I have dropped off some of the dangerous hobbies (cave/SAR diving, cafe racing, etc.) and focused on things such as flying, sport diving, and old car restoration. I also realize my version of safer, and priorities where I put my "fun" capital, are not the same as anyone else, but I do not look to denigrate their choices, and I hope to receive the same consideration from them.

As I stare down the barrel at an ever quicker approaching retirement date, we are working to make sure we have the resources to continue our lifestyle - including the Mooney - with minimal pain. As was stated earlier, when your income greatly exceeds your outgo, there is not really a need to monitor it as closely as when they edge closer to each other.

I think there are many ways for the next generation of pilots to get into flying, but sometimes they need some help to get started. Like @Jerry 5TJ, I have a friend who was ready to start lessons, but a Flight Discovery ride almost convinced him otherwise. A hot, bumpy day in the south with an instructor who wants to show you all the neat things he can do is not going to encourage student pilots. But taking him on a smooth 45 minute flight to get breakfast in another state and back works wonders.

Ok, everyone knows I can ramble, but to sum it up, let's work on finding those interested in flying and doing what we can to fan their ember of passion into a flame. 

And don't forget to also encourage those who would prefer to keep their feet on the ground but work on airplanes. Probably as critical a shortage as pilots.

[steingar]

I doubt I could support the Mooney in retirement.  My solution is to not retire.