Garmin 400W

[bnicolette]

Fellow aviators, I have an opportunity to purchase a Garmin 400W for what I think could be a great price. The only thing it comes with however is a the rack. I will need to buy a harness, antenna, and any annunciators for the GPS approaches. I'm not sure what else will be required, can you all give me some input as to what other expenses I will be getting into other than installation of course.

For me to use this unit in a certificated airplane, will the unit have to be yellow tagged?

I thought I could just put the unit in place of the KNS80?

Thanks in advance for your input.

I was one of the pre purchasers for the IFD540 but thanks to some recent maintenance, I may not be going down that road, so I am looking at some other options.

[KSMooniac]

Personally, it would have to be a really great price for me to want to go thru the expense of installing one and keeping an older COM radio going when a nearly equal amount of labor could install a 430W and remove the older King radio (and presumably re-sell). I love having the frequencies in the 430 and being able to scroll through them and easily load into the standby slot. Perhaps the cost of a used 430W minus the sale of the old King radio might be close to the cost of the 400W under consideration?

Mooneys don't need an annunciator because the distance between the center avionics stack and the AI is less than the limit that triggers an annunciator. You would need the connectors that connect to the back of the tray as well as coax + fittings to connect the antenna. You'll need to make a harness that interfaces with your installed equipment too, which will be the PITA portion of the installation.

The unit doesn't need to be tagged, but you should get some assurance that it is working fine before going thru the installation pain. I just sold my 430W from the salvage J, and I test flew it in my plane to verify that all of the functions were good.

Good luck!

[N601RX]

When the IFD 540 is released, the market for the used 430's will likely be flooded and drive the price down considerably.

[Piloto]

Consider a G530 also. The bigger screen size allows for more data to be displayed without switching screens. It will fit nicely in the KY 197 and KNS 80 space without the need to relocate trays. See attached picture. If later on you decide on the IFD 540 you will only need to swap units since the tray is the same.

José

[bnicolette]

The unit is coming out of our Lear 35 so I know it works and it will cost me 2K. I just thought this would be an economical (as economical as aviation can be I guess) way for me to get into the IFR GPS world. I wouldn't have to move a bunch of stuff around and it could easily take the place of the KNS80.

I would love to have the larger GNS530 or even the 430 but the used prices right now just aren't much cheaper than my early bird IFD540 price.

Anybody have any guestimates of what the install cost would be?

[Cruiser]

you will need the GA35 gps waas antenna and a connector kit. Probably around $500 and it should take 10 to 15 hrs of install time.

You will want to check the compatibility between the 400W and your HSI, autopilot and engine monitor. If those are good you should be all set.

Sounds great, if you decide against it let me know.

[flyboy0681]

Consider a G530 also. The bigger screen size allows for more data to be displayed without switching screens. It will fit nicely in the KY 197 and KNS 80 space without the need to relocate trays. See attached picture. If later on you decide on the IFD 540 you will only need to swap units since the tray is the same.

José

It looks great Jose.

[yvesg]

When the IFD 540 is released, the market for the used 430's will likely be flooded and drive the price down considerably.

N601RX,

When is the IFD 540 hitting the market? In Flying magazine, in mid 2011 they said it would be in 2012 which is almost ended. I am waiting for lower second hand price for 430W myself.

I will wait until this happens

Yves

C-FQKM

[1964-M20E]

I'd did a prepurchase on the 540 and with my new plane I woyuld have to move more things around to install it. I contacted Avidyne and they were willing to switch me to the 440. I have to wait longer late part of 2013 but I will not have to move a lot of other things and it will fit nicley in the space where the KY97 and KLN94 sit.

I'd stick with the Avidyne.

[Alan Fox]

The garmin prices are not coming down , we all thought they would come down with the advent of the new garmins.... Guess what ,, They actually went up in the last two years....As far as 2K for the 400w it is a great price.... It is still supported by garmin , interfaces with everything , probably worth closer to 3800.....and as far as comp values a king non waas KLN94 still does 2600 and is NOT supported by the factory.... I would give you 2400 for the garmin in a heartbeat.. I might be interested in buying the avidyne position.... Regards Alan....

[bnicolette]

The garmin prices are not coming down , we all thought they would come down with the advent of the new garmins.... Guess what ,, They actually went up in the last two years....As far as 2K for the 400w it is a great price.... It is still supported by garmin , interfaces with everything , probably worth closer to 3800.....and as far as comp values a king non waas KLN94 still does 2600 and is NOT supported by the factory.... I would give you 2400 for the garmin in a heartbeat.. I might be interested in buying the avidyne position.... Regards Alan....

Hopefully they will come down when the Avidyne is shipped. I'm not ready to give up the position for the Avidyne just yet (who knows, I may hit the lotto; LOL). I think I have a year IIRC after they start to ship to pay the balance and take delivery of my 540.

Thanks for the input all.

Waiting to hear back from the avionics shop for install cost.

[Marauder]

Hopefully they will come down when the Avidyne is shipped. I'm not ready to give up the position for the Avidyne just yet (who knows, I may hit the lotto; LOL). I think I have a year IIRC after they start to ship to pay the balance and take delivery of my 540.

Thanks for the input all.

Waiting to hear back from the avionics shop for install cost.

I certainly would like to see more competition in the avionics market place. I love my Garmin 650, but the installed price was like making a college payment. This environment reminds me of when King was truly King of the Nav/Com world. I ended up buying a Narco for almost half of what the KX155 was selling for then.

I understand the development costs. I get that, but affordable alternatives will help keep the entry point reasonable for the future generation of pilots. One evening I sat in an airport hosted avionics show by one of the local avionics shops. I thought I was sitting in the middle of Jurassic Park, with me being a T-Rex. Thirty people and none under the age of 50. Sad.

We are seeing a similar trend with the portable ADS-B antennae. Funny how they all sell for $799.

[rbridges]

The garmin prices are not coming down , we all thought they would come down with the advent of the new garmins.... Guess what ,, They actually went up in the last two years....As far as 2K for the 400w it is a great price.... It is still supported by garmin , interfaces with everything , probably worth closer to 3800.....and as far as comp values a king non waas KLN94 still does 2600 and is NOT supported by the factory.... I would give you 2400 for the garmin in a heartbeat.. I might be interested in buying the avidyne position.... Regards Alan....

I asked if it was worth upgrading to WAAS on my 430. My point being that I didn't want to dump money into a soon to be obsolete piece of technology. My avionics guy was pretty adamant that the 430 would be around for a while.

[Marauder]

I asked if it was worth upgrading to WAAS on my 430. My point being that I didn't want to dump money into a soon to be obsolete piece of technology. My avionics guy was pretty adamant that the 430 would be around for a while.

I heard the same. Garmin got a lot of pressure from fleet operators about maintaining the supportability of the 430/530. Their official stance is that they will maintain it while parts remain available. As most of us know, Garmin has a history of "discontinuing" products, especially in the consumer electronics area. The cost of entry for these products was much higher and if they take the same approach about discontinuing support, I think they will have a riot on their hands.

[Piloto]

If you already have a G530W there is no added capability that the IFD540 or the GTN 750 will add except maybe a nicer display and touch screen. But with $15K to $20K you could have a nice paint job and interiors that everybody will notice. Or keep the money toward engine overhaul or adding long range tanks. Three questions I ask myself before spending on none maintenance expenditures:

1. Is it going to make the plane safer (WX, Traffic, Engine Analyzer, Oxygen)

2. Is it going to change the plane performance/mission profile (speed mods, turbo, long range tanks)

3. Is it going to improve comfort/appearance (ANR headsets, new interior, new paint job)

José

[Alan Fox]

If you already have a G530W there is no added capability that the IFD540 or the GTN 750 will add except maybe a nicer display and touch screen. But with $15K to $20K you could have a nice paint job and interiors that everybody will notice. Or keep the money toward engine overhaul or adding long range tanks. Three questions I ask myself before spending on none maintenance expenditures:

1. Is it going to make the plane safer (WX, Traffic, Engine Analyzer, Oxygen)

2. Is it going to change the plane performance/mission profile (speed mods, turbo, long range tanks)

3. Is it going to improve comfort/appearance (ANR headsets, new interior, new paint job)

José

The garmin upgrade is good for a lack of panel space , But Hose is right a lot of money for not a lot of return..... The Avidyne is a less costly upgrade because you are using the original tray and install.....Both upgrades are giving close to 10K trade value for the old 530 , so its not a terribly expensive upgrade.... I think the Avidyne is a decent upgrade for a 530 that is non waas....

[bnicolette]

I heard back from the installer today about this and he brought up one thing I didn't even consider. If I got rid of my KNS80 I would lose my ILS capability. Well, that's a no go for me. If I wanted to just add the 400W and keep the KNS80, apparently it would be a switching nightmare being that I would be using the same indicator (HSI) and having them both wired to the autopilot. Oh well......time to keep the piggy bank growing for the Avidyne. I haven't heard anything from them in a while with regards to the shipping date? Anybody have any idea?

[Piloto]

I heard back from the installer today about this and he brought up one thing I didn't even consider. If I got rid of my KNS80 I would lose my ILS capability. Well, that's a no go for me. If I wanted to just add the 400W and keep the KNS80, apparently it would be a switching nightmare being that I would be using the same indicator (HSI) and having them both wired to the autopilot. Oh well......time to keep the piggy bank growing for the Avidyne. I haven't heard anything from them in a while with regards to the shipping date? Anybody have any idea?

If you get the 430W or 530W the GPS/ILS/VOR switching is done internally in the unit so you do not have to worry about external switching. On the 530W there is a small inset window below the NAV frequency that shows the Identifier, radial and distance to the station. So even though you gave up DME on the KNS 80 the 530W will show distance to the station. When using the OBS mode you can set with the HSI or CDI an specific inbound course to an airport in GPS mode. This is handy for airports with no approaches were you set the inbound course to be the same as the inbound runway. Pretty handy unit.

José

[Marauder]

I heard back from the installer today about this and he brought up one thing I didn't even consider. If I got rid of my KNS80 I would lose my ILS capability. Well, that's a no go for me. If I wanted to just add the 400W and keep the KNS80, apparently it would be a switching nightmare being that I would be using the same indicator (HSI) and having them both wired to the autopilot. Oh well......time to keep the piggy bank growing for the Avidyne. I haven't heard anything from them in a while with regards to the shipping date? Anybody have any idea?

Exactly why I went with the Aspen. I had no GPS prior to the 650, but I couldn't afford to add a second GPS at this time. I elected to get the Aspen to allow me to continue to use my Narco 12D+ with glide slope for ILS redundancy. On the Aspen, you can bring over either signal.

[bnicolette]

If you get the 430W or 530W the GPS/ILS/VOR switching is done internally in the unit so you do not have to worry about external switching. On the 530W there is a small inset window below the NAV frequency that shows the Identifier, radial and distance to the station. So even though you gave up DME on the KNS 80 the 530W will show distance to the station. When using the OBS mode you can set with the HSI or CDI an specific inbound course to an airport in GPS mode. This is handy for airports with no approaches were you set the inbound course to be the same as the inbound runway. Pretty handy unit.

José

Thanks Jose.................but I've already got my place in line for the IFD540 and it's partly paid for, so I guess I just continue on that grand plan. The used 530 prices aren't that much cheaper than what I will be paying for the Avidyne, however, the Avidyne doesn't quite exist yet which is actually a good thing as now I can stock that piggy bank back up.

[bnicolette]

Exactly why I went with the Aspen. I had no GPS prior to the 650, but I couldn't afford to add a second GPS at this time. I elected to get the Aspen to allow me to continue to use my Narco 12D+ with glide slope for ILS redundancy. On the Aspen, you can bring over either signal.

Oh if only!!!!!! I would love to have one of those units but that's so far out of my reach right now!

[Marauder]

Oh if only!!!!!! I would love to have one of those units but that's so far out of my reach right now!

I have owned the same Mooney for the past 21 years. I had been flying behind really old stuff for a while and it was time. I have a great wife who uttered the magical words "you only live once". I didn't have the heart to tell her living once could mean living in the poor house after the upgrade.

Like I mentioned earlier, I'm impressed with the Aspen flexibility to bolt to almost anything you have in the plane. I was flying behind a DG connected to my STEC 60-2 and two ILS CDIs both able to fly coupled through a switch. I had always dreamed of an HSI and with the Aspen, I got an HSI, an RMI, full GPSS steering, backup GPS, flight director and altitude alerter among other things all in 1 upgrade.

I really like the way they kept the aftermarket customer in mind.

[KSMooniac]

I'll add a slightly unconventional viewpoint.... if you add WAAS capability to your bird, do you really *need* an ILS? Sure, it is great to have both, but if I had to choose KNS80 (with ILS) vs. a 400W and no ILS, I'll choose the 400W every time, especially if you add a GPSS module to your autopilot. I haven't done any survey or anything, but I would bet a dollar that today every ILS runway has a WAAS approach as well. Moreover, many non-ILS runways have GPS approaches and even LPV, so this means that the likelihood of getting to any given airport in IMC would be much higher with the 400W.

If you find you miss having ILS capability, perhaps you could upgrade your KX-155 or -165 (not sure which you have in there) to add a GS, but I bet you would find that you don't need it.

You can get a used GPSS module for <1 AMU currently, and get it + the 400W installed for modest money, so you could likely increase the capability and safety of your Mooney for < 4 AMU all-in, I expect. That seems like a good deal to me. If you haven't sampled a WAAS GPS with GPSS A/P functionality, you'll be absolutely amazed!

[DrBill]

I have the 430W unit and I'm glad I recently practiced how to do an ILS with the NAV portion. 90 percent of my currency trips were done with the GPS approach and WAAS. So one day I went out dan did a few ILS approaches. The following week I had an appointment with my AME for my physical. He's located at Greensboro NC on the airport so I planned to fly there. As usual, I file IFR on all trips over 30miles so this was no different. I took off in CAVU conditions and as I approached the GSO airport ATC tells me to prepare for the ILS as the airport is IFR ! There is only ONE cloud anywhere in sight and there it is, right over the aiport and causing low ceilings (600 ft). So, I get the vectors for the ILS and I setup the 430 accordingly. Was I glad I practiced it shortly before. As I intercepted the glide slope, I was in IMC. at 800 ft, I'm below the level and the airport is in the clear ahead of me. As I cross the numbers, the controller announces that the airport is now VFR. I was really glad I had practiced the ILS approaches a few weeks before.

BILL