Two gear up landings within 2 days of each other - M20C at KFNL & M20M at KPAE.

[Brian2034]

On 4/24/2025 at 3:26 AM, midlifeflyer said:

Without getting into the touch & go right or wrong battle, there will be far more proficiency created by a single gusty crosswind landing than 10 maneuvers created to fit more landing into a given amount of time. 

I agree, anyone can land in a decent head wind straight down the runway! 
But throw in a crosswind component and you separate the proficient pilots from the other’s

In the early days I would only fly on the days with low winds or when the winds where directly down the runway.  We had three runways, so it wasn’t hard to choose the appropriate direction to avoid the dreaded crosswind. Then our airport shut down one runway and it became a little more difficult to get the favourable wind direction all the time but you learned to cope. THEN the second runway which was the main runway shut down for resurfacing and it became either fly the crosswind or don’t fly.

Very quickly we all learned to cope with the crosswind!
As far as I’m concerned if the runway resurfacing didn’t occur, I still would be hunting for the safes runway to avoid the crosswinds.

As I said before the pilots at our hangar that went through the same ordeal regularly fly in 30 knots of wind and frequently land with maximum crosswind components.

[rbridges]

The m20c was my old plane. Gus (mooneymite) actually texted me about it. I hope it can be repaired and not salvaged. It was a sweet plane. I always felt it was one of the nicest C models out there. 

[FlyingDude]

On 4/25/2025 at 12:31 PM, midlifeflyer said:

Just a little of that FAA "invulnerability" hazardous attitude mixed in? 

To the contrary. He was saying that it can happen to those who think it only happens to the young and dumb. 

I agree with and teach checking the gear many times, including at each pattern segment, at each turn, over the threshold and if possible also before pulling the throttle idle. That's on top of the checklist. The reason for all of this is that most gear ups seem to happen when people get out of their flow. So a healthy dose of OCD in gear checking can help. 

[donkaye, MCFI]

If this helps one person, it will be worth having posted it.  At some point during a transition training, after landings are becoming consistently satisfactory, I do something that about 90% of students fail to catch.  During takeoff and in the crosswind turn, as the students reaches for the gear handle and puts it down, I will start talking while at the same time pulling the gear actuator circuit breaker and stall and gear warning cbs.  I casually cover them with my hand.  Then wait an see what happens.  Even though Pitch+Power+Configuration=Performance, this goes unnoticed.  I've had people check the gear handle on base and  final.  On final I'll wait and finally ask if anything is wrong.  They'll sometimes check the gear handle is down, and then say no.  At that point I'll have to point at the gear down light not being on and reengage the cbs.  Most are grateful for the exercise.

[MikeOH]

3 hours ago, donkaye, MCFI said:

If this helps one person, it will be worth having posted it.  At some point during a transition training, after landings are becoming consistently satisfactory, I do something that about 90% of students fail to catch.  During takeoff and in the crosswind turn, as the students reaches for the gear handle and puts it down, I will start talking while at the same time pulling the gear actuator circuit breaker and stall and gear warning cbs.  I casually cover them with my hand.  Then wait a see what happens.  Even though Pitch+Power+Configuration=Performance, this goes unnoticed.  I've had people check the gear handle on base and  final.  On final I'll wait and finally ask if anything is wrong.  They'll sometimes check the gear handle is down, and then say no.  At that point I'll have to point at the gear down light not being on and reengage the cbs.  Most are grateful for the exercise.

WOW!

That is amazing as I am shocked that no one notices the lack of noise and vibration when the gear switch is moved to the down position! I can believe some don't pick up on that, but 90%?  YIKES!!!  Good lesson, for sure.

[Ragsf15e]

14 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

WOW!

That is amazing as I am shocked that no one notices the lack of noise and vibration when the gear switch is moved to the down position! I can believe some don't pick up on that, but 90%?  YIKES!!!  Good lesson, for sure.

And apparently people don’t look at the floor indicator?  Before turning base, “handle down, 2 green (dash and floor), flaps xxx”…

[201er]

17 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

WOW!

That is amazing as I am shocked that no one notices the lack of noise and vibration when the gear switch is moved to the down position! I can believe some don't pick up on that, but 90%?  YIKES!!!  Good lesson, for sure.

Is it a surprise then how many newly purchased Mooneys get gear-upped in the first week or month of ownership?

[MikeOH]

2 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

And apparently people don’t look at the floor indicator?  Before turning base, “handle down, 2 green (dash and floor), flaps xxx”…

EXACTLY!  After selecting gear down I wait for the 'green' and say, "gear down"...then move my hand to touch the floor indicator and say, "and locked"

[William Munney]

On 4/25/2025 at 5:39 AM, Hank said:

when's the last time most airline pilots created and filed a flight plan, checked the weather (NOT read a briefing prepared by someone else), etc.?

Stuff like this makes me laugh.  Respectfully, airline pilots are the most experienced, well trained aviators in the world.  We have ALL done the things you mentioned countless times before we got where we are today.  It’s a completely different world from GA.  Having experience in both worlds I can say that one does not necessarily prepare you for the other……and that does go both ways.  I fly with absolutely  astounding pilots who will fully admit that relearning all the “GA rules” is terrifying for them.  But, that does not mean that aren’t perfectly capable of doing it well.   I’m also pretty certain that few GA fellows are ready to pilot complicated wide body aircraft around the planet, day and night, in every type of weather.  It’s probably a larger leap than going back to GA.

As for gear-up landings, i think the right set of circumstances and distractions can cause anyone to make this mistake.  I do not consider anyone immune and it just takes the one time.  Really good pilots make mistakes.  I have seen this over a lifetime of flying.

[MikeOH]

5 minutes ago, 201er said:

Is it a surprise then how many newly purchased Mooneys get gear-upped in the first week or month of ownership?

Meh, maybe.  It's possible that new owners aren't 'familiar' with the sounds and 'feel', yet.  Personally, I think it more likely that they are still distracted by aircraft unfamiliarity.

Overall, I'm pretty skeptical of the 'conclusions' drawn here about the demographics being the cause of the pilots who gear-up...the "data" presented is biased and rather limited; drawing statistically meaningful conclusions is a stretch, IMHO.

[MikeOH]

4 minutes ago, William Munney said:

As for gear-up landings, i think the right set of circumstances and distractions can cause anyone to make this mistake.  I do not consider anyone immune and it just takes the one time.  Really good pilots make mistakes.  I have seen this over a lifetime of flying.

Well put!

It's why I posted above the link to John Deakin's near mistake in a 747.

[kortopates]

When i am doing transition training i always do the same stunt that Don describes except i only pull the Actuator CB, not the stall and gear warning CB. I need to preface with i have my pilots put the gear down just below pattern altitude and add approach flaps along with the down wind MAP setting. When i pull the gear actuator CB see most pilots catch it right away, very seldom is it missed. But this is after a prior 1/2 day of ground going over all systems and emergency procedures, which hopefully helps but not the real reason IMHO. What i think what really helps is i teach them to keep their hand on the gear lever till the gear down light comes and to not touch the flaps till the gear down light is on and then lower the flaps to approach or takeoff position. That’s essentially two verification checks when the gear comes down. Then another gear down check abeam the numbers and a final check of the floor gear down light on final.

Most notice the issue right away but i am surprised how many Mid-body Mooney’s have their gear down floor lights burnt out, showing the previous owner wasn’t using it. Long bodies have all been good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nico1]

13 minutes ago, kortopates said:

When i am doing transition training i always do the same stunt that Don describes except i only pull the Actuator CB, not the stall and gear warning CB. I need to preface with i have my pilots put the gear down just below pattern altitude and add approach flaps along with the down wind MAP setting. When i pull the gear actuator CB see most pilots catch it right away, very seldom is it missed. But this is after a prior 1/2 day of ground going over all systems and emergency procedures, which hopefully helps but not the real reason IMHO. What i think what really helps is i teach them to keep their hand on the gear lever till the gear down light comes and to not touch the flaps till the gear down light is on and then lower the flaps to approach or takeoff position. That’s essentially two verification checks when the gear comes down. Then another gear down check abeam the numbers and a final check of the floor gear down light on final.

Most notice the issue right away but i am surprised how many Mid-body Mooney’s have their gear down floor lights burnt out, showing the previous owner wasn’t using it. Long bodies have all been good.


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This is exactly how I was taught. Keep hand on gear lever until panel green, then confirm with floor indicator. Then several checks at different points. Same procedure putting gear up or any config change really. (Helps with not forgetting boost pump when switching tanks too!)

also a popped CB is quite noticeable even from peripheral view in my experience. 

Edited April 27 by Nico1

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

WOW!

That is amazing as I am shocked that no one notices the lack of noise and vibration when the gear switch is moved to the down position! I can believe some don't pick up on that, but 90%?  YIKES!!!  Good lesson, for sure.

I’ve seen the same thing. I pull breakers during complex transition training too.  

Don’t be shocked.  People get fixated and distracted. 

[Andy95W]

8 hours ago, MikeOH said:

WOW!

That is amazing as I am shocked that no one notices the lack of noise and vibration when the gear switch is moved to the down position! I can believe some don't pick up on that, but 90%?  YIKES!!!  Good lesson, for sure.

When I was an active CFI and doing retract gear checkouts, I had one favorite way to distract a student.  After numerous flights around the pattern, watching as putting the gear down became a habit, I would ask the student just before midfield downwind, “what’s your family doing for Christmas this year?”  For a new retract gear pilot, it worked EVERY time to distract them.  On final, with the gear horn blaring, I’d ask, “what’s that noise?”  Most thought it was the stall warning.  None noticed it before I mentioned it.

After finishing the lesson, we would talk and I’d tell them how normal their reaction was and hopefully they would carry the lesson forward with them.  Our spouses (wives, husbands, doesn’t matter) notice our increased alertness in the traffic pattern and will pick that moment to start a conversation.  I suggest talking about it beforehand, by telling the spouse about the sterile cockpit concept while in the traffic pattern.

Someone here (maybe @Hank?) has said their spouse has one job in the pattern and that’s to ask if the gear is down when on final approach.  If I’d thought about that when I was instructing, I would’ve suggested that.

For single pilot operations I’ve always suggested the triple check: downwind- drop the gear and do the checklist. Base- verify green light(s). Short final- look at the runway numbers and say out loud “I’ve got the numbers, I’ve got a green light.”  Hopefully one of those three will catch a mistake.

And I always try to remember “There but for the grace of God go I.”

[MikeOH]

Yuup! I check four times: downwind, turning base, final, and 'over the fence'

[hazek]

How do people slow down to flap speed without the gear down? Idle power, speed brakes and nose up?? For me coming in at 20" the gear must come down to slow down. There's no other obvious normal approach way.

[donkaye, MCFI]

On 4/22/2025 at 8:30 PM, Mooney in Oz said:

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/500642

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/500635

Very disappointing.  When N355RZ was new in late November 1997, I ferried it down and back to San Antonio for Ron Gilbert to have the TKS installed at Mooney.  I flew with him on a number of training flights and have over 43 hours in the plane.  The flight to San Antonio was memorable.  After stopping for "cold" fuel in Twin Falls, Idaho, at 23,000 feet at night on the way to what was supposed to be an overnight in Albuquerque, the engine started sputtering,  I think I declared an emergency and descended down to 18,000 feet where the engine started performing normally.  I remember the woman Controller was very helpful.  I diverted to Farmington, landed safely, and stayed the night.  That night I got on the phone with someone at Mooney and we came to the conclusion that it was ice in the fuel.  The temperature at altitude was -23°C.  The next morning I circled the airport for 15 minutes to get comfortable with the plane before heading uneventfully on to San Antonio.  Currently, I have 6,959 entries in 12 logbooks.  Some flights, no matter how long ago they occurred, remain unforgettable.

[Hank]

7 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Someone here (maybe @Hank?) has said their spouse has one job in the pattern and that’s to ask if the gear is down when on final approach.  If I’d thought about that when I was instructing, I would’ve suggested that.

For single pilot operations I’ve always suggested the triple check: downwind- drop the gear and do the checklist. Base- verify green light(s). Short final- look at the runway numbers and say out loud “I’ve got the numbers, I’ve got a green light.”  Hopefully one of those three will catch a mistake.

And I always try to remember “There but for the grace of God go I.”

That wasn't me, but I've read it here recently. 

I check gear down three times:

1. Abeam intended point of landing, drop gear and check green light. 
2. On base, check green light.
3. Turn final, confirm slope and speed, point at floor indicator. 

5 hours ago, hazek said:

How do people slow down to flap speed without the gear down? Idle power, speed brakes and nose up?? For me coming in at 20" the gear must come down to slow down. There's no other obvious normal approach way.

Simple, descend to pattern altitude, reduce power and wait. Takes a mile or two. What power setting do you use for instrument approaches? For me, it's 16-17" / 2300 clean; coming in VFR, I may pull back to 15" to get under 125 mph, but it will never happen in a descent.

Once Takeoff Flaps are down, I'm usually around 100 mph and increase throttle an inch or two to stabilize at 90 mph. Gear goes down to start descent for landing, with another power reduction. 

In my little C model, speed brakes don't exist, and 20" will keep me way too fast to move anything beside the yoke and rudder pedals.

[hazek]

In the Bravo I never pull back power below 20" before gear down. I don't know why, but my gear horn starts to sound just under 20" (probably miscalibrated). And honestly I don't find any need to go below 20" flying VFR before gear down if I plan my descent well so that I arrive a few NM from the traffic pattern at TPA. Most of the time this is anyway required with mandatory VRPs around larger airports here in Europe. So for me it's gear down to slow down. That's why I'm surprised that people don't have trouble slowing down without their gear down. I guess they really just go idle power..

[skykrawler]

24 minutes ago, Hank said:

 

Once Takeoff Flaps are down, I'm usually around 100 mph and increase throttle an inch or two to stabilize at 90 mph. Gear goes down to start descent for landing, with another power reduction. 

I differ here.  No flaps until the gear is down (like in a previous post).   In transport airplanes usually flaps are used for lower speeds and margins before the gear are extended.   But these airplanes can be landed at nearly the same speed with no flaps at all.

Level flight on the downwind flaps up, gear down requires significant manifold pressure - its part of the clue.

[Pinecone]

On 4/24/2025 at 5:07 PM, A64Pilot said:

It seems to me that T&G’s aren’t actually the root cause of most of Mooney gear-ups.

It’s very junior pilots that in my opinion shouldn’t be in a complex aircraft, actually now I think of it the gear ups sort of make my point.

The USAF trains from early on in retract aircraft, does lots of touch and goes, and does not have many gear ups.

But they do have an RSU with someone watching to make sure the gear is down (for GA a Landing Height System would do similar), but even so, they seldom have someone forget the gear.

[hazek]

This talk might explain why it happens:

 

[A64Pilot]

On 4/27/2025 at 11:06 AM, donkaye, MCFI said:

If this helps one person, it will be worth having posted it.  At some point during a transition training, after landings are becoming consistently satisfactory, I do something that about 90% of students fail to catch.  During takeoff and in the crosswind turn, as the students reaches for the gear handle and puts it down, I will start talking while at the same time pulling the gear actuator circuit breaker and stall and gear warning cbs.  I casually cover them with my hand.  Then wait a see what happens.  Even though Pitch+Power+Configuration=Performance, this goes unnoticed.  I've had people check the gear handle on base and  final.  On final I'll wait and finally ask if anything is wrong.  They'll sometimes check the gear handle is down, and then say no.  At that point I'll have to point at the gear down light not being on and reengage the cbs.  Most are grateful for the exercise.

 My CFI did that to me 40 years ago in a M20 AT, I’m sure that was school policy

He got me too, really made me think.

Edited April 28 by A64Pilot

[Echo]

Fate is the hunter.