Hangar rash from maintenance <minor rant/>

[toto]

TL;DR: I’m frustrated by maintenance-induced hangar rash.

Every time my plane goes into the shop, it seems to come out with new blemishes. Often scratches in the paint that are too deep to buff out.

This isn’t one shop - big shops, small shops, avionics, general maintenance. I’m not trying to pick on anyone in particular.

I know that some of this is nearly unavoidable - when you take off a Mooney cowling, the paint at the edges takes a beating. 

But I constantly see things like three-ring binders sitting on the wing, sometimes random parts (think air filters), sometimes my glare shield will be sitting on the wing. And the plane almost always comes out with something it didn’t go in with. 

When I raise the issue of the new scratch, the response is often “we’ll remind the guys to use the mats” or similar. I’ve gotten to the point where I take a million photos right before the plane goes in, just so I can be absolutely sure what’s new and what isn’t.

Is this just me having unreasonable expectations?  My paint is in really good condition, and  I know it won’t last forever - but I want to avoid the avoidable stuff

[EricJ]

This is one reason I am not planning on painting my airplane.   Right now it doesn't matter if anybody scratches it a little bit, and life is just much easier that way. 

That said, even in A&P school we were often reminded to not put tools on the airplane surfaces, cover stuff up if you need to be on it, etc., etc.  Some shops and mechanics are just better at it than others.

 

[MikeOH]

Yeah, it would piss me off if I had a nice new paint job.  Thankfully, I can't swing $20K for paint so I don't worry about it much

[skydvrboy]

As I try to do owner assisted annuals, almost all of the new scratches are my own fault.  The worst was when I was cleaning off the old weatherstrip adhesive.  Sure enough, a single drop of adhesive remover fell onto the painted surface of the wing.  I quickly discovered its a MUCH better paint remover than adhesive remover!

[dkkim73]

Funny I was just thinking about this. I noticed some cracked paint and scratches just outboard of the skid tape on the starboard wing root. Trying to figure out when it happened... For all i know i set something down there, but still one wonders whenever it leaves one's immediate sight.

[Ragsf15e]

I see my IA do some of that kind of thing while I’m helping and I usually bite my tongue and move the binder/tool/whatever.  He is actually pretty careful, but stuff definitely happens to these airplanes.  Taking them all apart all the time in a shop for multiple weeks doesn’t help.  I guess im lucky to have marginal paint…

[PT20J]

Most of my scratches are my fault. I might suggest discussing your concerns with the shop manager before they start work. Maybe he can tell the mechanics that the owner is particular and to be careful. After the fact there isn't much the manager can do except apologize. As for putting tools on the airplane, I've been known to do it myself, but it is a bad idea. I had an A&P friend that worked at the United Airlines maintenance depot at SFO and she told me that they had so many instances of opening up airframes and finding tools left inside that they instituted a rule that you could not set a tool down on the aircraft. It's a good policy.

[wombat]

20 hours ago, toto said:

 

Is this just me having unreasonable expectations?  

Not trying to be mean or anything, but basically... Yes, that's unreasonable.      It's not that you or your hopes are bad or anything, but your expectations are different enough from most people's that it obviously takes special effort to meet your expectations.   Most people are OK with a few new scratches each time.

I'm expect there are shops that can perform with the level of attention to quality you are expecting but I think those are going to be hard to find.   

 

You didn't ask, but I'll give you some ideas anyway that might help....

• Make up some protective covers for the parts you think might get scratched.    Old comforters sewn together.  Maybe suction cups to hold them so they don't slip off?  Or sew on some anti-slip material?     Then when you drop the plane off, you can cover all the surfaces with your protector stuff, and with that already installed, you'll be much less likely to have an incident.
• Be very clear about your expectations about the paint before you drop it off, and offer a meaningful premium for them if they achieve your standards.   Maybe $1,000 gift certificate to a local restaurant, or X catered lunch meals for Y people?  (Basically taking the whole shop out for lunch a few times)

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, wombat said:

Not trying to be mean or anything, but basically... Yes, that's unreasonable.      It's not that you or your hopes are bad or anything, but your expectations are different enough from most people's that it obviously takes special effort to meet your expectations.   Most people are OK with a few new scratches each time.

I'm expect there are shops that can perform with the level of attention to quality you are expecting but I think those are going to be hard to find.   

 

You didn't ask, but I'll give you some ideas anyway that might help....

• Make up some protective covers for the parts you think might get scratched.    Old comforters sewn together.  Maybe suction cups to hold them so they don't slip off?  Or sew on some anti-slip material?     Then when you drop the plane off, you can cover all the surfaces with your protector stuff, and with that already installed, you'll be much less likely to have an incident.
• Be very clear about your expectations about the paint before you drop it off, and offer a meaningful premium for them if they achieve your standards.   Maybe $1,000 gift certificate to a local restaurant, or X catered lunch meals for Y people?  (Basically taking the whole shop out for lunch a few times)

Not trying to be mean or anything, but basically...your attitude is why @toto's expectations are unreasonable

I disagree vehemently that his expectations are "different enough from most people's" I do not agree "that most people are OK with a few scratches each time". We are forced to put up with it because, for reasons that completely escape me, 'service' in the aviation world is, in a word, pathetic.  The continued acceptance of poor service and the tacit expectation of the same is kind of sad, really.

Would you expect "that most people are OK with a few scratches each time" they take their car in for service?  If not, why should the expectation be any different for one's aircraft?  Do I have a solution to the situation?  Nope, but that doesn't mean I'm not free to bitch about it

[Pinecone]

Funny, if you owned a $150,000 car and took it into a shop and it got scratched, you would expect the shop to repair the scratch or pay to have it repairted.

But a $150,000 (or more) airplane, you are supposed to expect scratches.

Maybe if owners insisted that the shop make it good, it would happen less.

[wombat]

@MikeOH  I wouldn't say I have an attitude about it either way.  I would say I'm analyzing and describing the situation.  By "OK with a few new scratches each time." I don't mean people are happy about it, but I mean that they don't do anything meaningful about it.   With that definition in mind, it's kind of the same thing as "forced to put up with it".

I've provided a couple of ideas on some meaningful steps an airplane owner can take to take action against this situation.    Another one:

 

As @toto has been doing, record the condition of the aircraft when it's dropped off and when picking it up, compare the current condition to the record.  If the condition is worse, talk to the shop about it and ask that they repair the new damage, or you will take one of the following actions:    A: Complain to them in private.    B: Complain about them in public.   C: Ask them to compensate you for the damage, including asking our legal system to make a decision and enforce the compensation if necessary.  Basically, take them to court.

 

Option A will most likely only get them to reject you as a customer in the future, although if we all do it, the shops will have to change their ways.

Option B is likely to get you rejected as a customer from not only that shop, but others.  And also, you might get taken to court.   

Option C .... Well, I don't know.    I do know I'm not about to risk it.   

 

I think that aviation maintenance rates, although they seem REALLY high to me, are lagging behind inflation and they are being undercompensated for the effort and cost for the certification and facility, and risk they assume by working on aircraft.     Basically, we are paying a very substandard rate and that rate isn't enough for them to be careful.

 

I'm planning on getting a new paint job for my plane next year and I don't know how I'll manage this myself.   If I had to decide right now, I'd make 'maintenance covers' for the wings and surfaces that are likely to get damaged and put them on when I drop the plane off.   But for now, my paint is maybe 4/10 and the majority of the damage is not from scratches as people have put objects on the plane or been careless walking around, it's from the skin flexing and paint chipping off the rivet heads and lap joints.

 

[GeeBee]

A while back I took my car to the dealership for new tires. It has special 21" rims. The shop dinged my rim changing the tire. It is so small I would not have even noticed it, but they knew they did it, owned up to it and said they could fix it with 48 hours more down time or they could fix it at my next B service. I elected the latter. That is the way it is supposed to work. Then again, when you arrive for service, they take an iPad movie of your car, front, rear, left and right. I would not accept that kind of damage to your paint. That is inexcusable.

[DXB]

Like it or not, the market and margins from piston aircraft maintenance do not allow them to operate like the service department of a high end exotic sportscar dealer, even though the price point of the vehicle is similar. And frankly I need the handful of honest, trustworthy, and capable shops out there more than they need me, so I find it counterproductive to antagonize by sweating the small stuff. 

My list of priorities in aviation maintenance: 

(1) Please don't do anything that might kill or maim me when the plane returns to service 

(2) Please don't break anything major that works, including totaling my airframe in a freak shop accident

(3) Actually do the work (and related paperwork) I request in a quality manner 

(4) Be honest and accountable when I find things that went wrong under items 1-3

(5) Listen to me and engage me in thoughtful discussion regarding problems found by me or the shop before "fixing" anything

(6) Charge me a fair amount for the work done

(7) Complete the work in a reasonable time frame.

.............

(99) Don't return my plane substantially filthier than you found it

(100) Don't put a paint scratch on my 56 year old plane.  

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

A previously reliable shop for me suddenly flunked #1 #,3, #4, #5, and #7 all at once a few years ago during annual, causing me to switch.  

Right now I'm ecstatic to have been working with a shop that has done #1-7 pretty reliably since then.  I wouldn't care if they put a little scratch on it.   My main concern if it became a common occurrence would be that their efforts under items #1-3 might also be suffering - in your situation I might switch, but not because of the scratch itself.

 

[wombat]

Also, @toto ...   That picture you took is very zoomed in and I don't have a good sense of how big those scratches are.  They could be 1/4" total, or smaller.   Can you provide additional photos or information so we can have more context about those scratches?

 

I fly my plane to get places and the amount of time and money I have to baby my plane for purely cosmetics is minimal.   If a new paint job is $30,000 and lasts 40 years before it needs to be redone because of regular wear and tear, the additional damage from shops isn't going to reduce that by much. 

 

 

If any of you want to pay the extra premium for that level of service, more power to you.   But at least with my current paint, I'd rather reduce shop rates by 10% and accept some scratches.

[Hank]

I don't think an auto shop has ever damaged my vehicle when working on it. And I don't drive "high end," just basic stuff like Honda Accord, Ford Ranger and now a base model Nissan Altima.

Fortunately, the A&Ps / IAs that I have used on my Mooney have not caused cosmetic damage that I've noticed. It was painted two owners ago, sometime in the 90s, and I think it looks pretty good still. I have had to ditch one shop due to quality and quantity of work, doing unapproved work, and stupid rates [we took your wheels off, decided your bearings are bad, then put it all back together. We want to charge you to jack up your plane, remove, clean and disassemble the wheels, replace & lube the bearings, then put everything back together.] After that experience, I needed a Ferry Permit to go to Joey Cole's and have the plane rerigged; he said I was lucky the gear came down to land, to say nothing of how out-of-whack the elevator was. [dumbass replaced the tie rod ends when I told him not to, because he didn't have rigging boards to make sure everything was right.] So far, four good ones and just the one bad apple.

[GeeBee]

3 hours ago, DXB said:

Like it or not, the market and margins from piston aircraft maintenance do not allow them to operate like the service department of a high end exotic sportscar dealer, even though the price point of the vehicle is similar. And frankly I need the handful of honest, trustworthy, and capable shops out there more than they need me, so I find it counterproductive to antagonize by sweating the small stuff. 

My list of priorities in aviation maintenance: 

(1) Please don't do anything that might kill or maim me when the plane returns to service 

(2) Please don't break anything major that works, including totaling my airframe in a freak shop accident

(3) Actually do the work (and related paperwork) I request in a quality manner 

(4) Be honest and accountable when I find things that went wrong under items 1-3

(5) Listen to me and engage me in thoughtful discussion regarding problems found by me or the shop before "fixing" anything

(6) Charge me a fair amount for the work done

(7) Complete the work in a reasonable time frame.

.............

(99) Don't return my plane substantially filthier than you found it

(100) Don't put a paint scratch on my 56 year old plane.  

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

A previously reliable shop for me suddenly flunked #1 #,3, #4, #5, and #7 all at once a few years ago during annual, causing me to switch.  

Right now I'm ecstatic to have been working with a shop that has done #1-7 pretty reliably since then.  I wouldn't care if they put a little scratch on it.   My main concern if it became a common occurrence would be that their efforts under items #1-3 might also be suffering - in your situation I might switch, but not because of the scratch itself.

 

I think you missed the point. If a shop will return your aircraft scratched and dented without so much as a "sorry" what else do you think they are hiding? In my example the shop was exemplar in their honesty of something I probably would have not noticed.

[DXB]

16 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

I think you missed the point. If a shop will return your aircraft scratched and dented without so much as a "sorry" what else do you think they are hiding? In my example the shop was exemplar in their honesty of something I probably would have not noticed.

It's a fair point - my comment wasn't really meant as a rebuttal of yours, though in retrospect I realize it comes off that way.  Dinging up people's planes probably correlates well with carelessness in other domains.  

[Parker_Woodruff]

I'm not saying this about the OP, but shops need to take high-res pictures of planes when they enter into their possession.  There are certainly instances of some owners just not realizing the blemishes exist prior to the shop taking custody of an aircraft.

[Fritz1]

I do most work myself and work with my IA during annuals, putting cowls on moving blankets on the floor helps a lot, wings can be covered with blankets before binders and tools are placed on them, showing up in a shop unannounced about every second day gives you an idea what is going on, pizza boosts shop morale, in the end the OP is the only one that has an interest in his airplane being treated well and has to manage everything and everybody accordingly by all means possible steering things towards a favorable outcome, totally different from taking the merc, porsche or lambo to the dealership

[Z W]

When our long-time A&P retired and a new crew took over the shop, we started getting the plane back covered in greasy smudges that weren't there when it went in.  Happened enough times I mentioned it to them.  I keep it pretty clean.  

Shortly after that, we had a series of maintenance-caused issues leading to almost a year in downtime and several dangerous conditions before finding a new shop.  Looking back, you could see how they were treating the plane by the greasy fingerprints.  Should have pulled it out of there then.

I'd put new scratches and dents on the plane in the same category.  Not talking about chipped paint at the edge of the cowlings and inspection panels, or an occasional chip from a dropped tool.  I do understand some of that is going to happen.