Looking at a Mooney

[jamicozzi]

Hello all! 

I am new to the site and new to Mooney. I grew up on Cessna and more recently Pipers. My daughter got her PPL and we are both now setting out to get our IR and to do some XC. We will be looking at a Mooney M20J next week. I've always admired the Mooneys but didn't think it would be in the cards. Looks like this one may be a possibility for us.

Operating costs seem pretty reasonable, and it certainly fits the mission (we could move all the way through a Commercial if that is what we decide to do). Seems like a good platform for us. (We were originally considering the Piper Arrow). 

What do we need to know?

[Planegary]

Welcome aboard 

use a Mooney knowledgeable shop for the pre buy 

i believe you can find a pre buy checklist on this site

really have the mechanics look for corrosion

Avionics are more expensive to buy and have installed than pay for already installed 

regular flight time is desirable for engine health ( no long dormant periods on the engine)

Insurance will be expensive at first so figure that into your costs

other guys on this site are a wealth of knowledge so ask and learn

there are no stupid questions only stupid answers so don’t be afraid to ask questions

enjoy your experience. :-)

[Pinecone]

The purchase price is a small part of the overall cost, so don't get too hung up on that.

Look through the log books.  Look for anything that looks odd.  You may want to use the assistance of an experienced Mooney mechanic to help.  I used @jetdriven here on MS.  He helped me learn through the process.  We spent a lot of time on the phone and the small amount billed was well worth it.

Corrosion is a big thing, so have a good shop do a good pre buy inspection.  And tell them explicitly to check for corrosion.  Where are you?  And where is the plane?  We can recommend some good shops around the country to do this.  And mentioned, hours on a regular basis is a good thing.  Many people prefer to buy with a high time engine (priced appropriately) so they can control the overhaul shop or do a Factory Reman or even New.  Some sellers do a quicky overhaul and a not-so-great shop (if the plane you are looking at has a very recent overall, ASK US about the shop) just so they can sell with "fresh overhaul."  One plane I looked at, had such a great overhaul, it was overhauled again a year later and 5 years later had a top overhaul, and 2 years after that, replaced a cylinder and another one the next year. 

I agree that getting close to the instruments in the plane is cheaper (and faster) that doing them later.  At a minimum you want a WAAS capable GPS.  Steam gauge versus glass panel can be a huge debate, but you can fly either and do your instrument rating with either.  You can spend more than a cheaper plane in avionics (see my thread in the Avionics section).

Also, plan on some flying with a good Mooney experienced instructor.  They are not hard to fly, but they do have some quirks and you need to fly precisely, especially for landing.

[Fritz1]

Fully agree with what pinecone said and emphasize checking for corrosion, it typically affects airplanes that were parked outside for a long time and/or lived in a corrosive climate for a long time. Corrosion typically affects the fuselage tubes under leaking side windows and/or the stub spar in the wing. Corrosion is about the only thing that can sink one of these tough airframes, i.e. a repair may cost more than the airframe is worth. The best way to find this show stopper is to pay somebody that knows these airframes well to look for it, state exactly where he looked and certify that there was none found in the entire airframe. Pretty much anything else can be fixed with $$. The prebuy is best done at the buyer's expense so that it can be called an annual after aircraft is purchased and identified squaks fixed. If aircraft not purchased it is money well spent and the next time around you already know much better where to look. Typically another 20-30% of the purchase price is spent on upgrades and repairs of a well maintained and frequently flown airplane in the first two years of ownership after purchase. All airplanes are works in progress, the journey is the destination, once they really sing, there is just nothing like it. 

[jamicozzi]

Wow. Thanks for the quick response!

The one we are looking at was kept in Michigan and logbooks reflect that it spent most if its time there. I'll be looking those over again just to make sure I did not miss anything. 

We opted for a pre-buy at our expense by Thoroughbred Aviation at Lexington, KY. I hadn't asked about the Pre-buy counting as an Annual but will check on that. Last Annual on this was in December, so not much difference there, but interested to hear whether anything new popped up.

We are in Northeast Ohio and will be based at Medina Muni (1G5).

[Utah20Gflyer]

I think the main thing you need to know is a Mooney is a much better plane than a Piper Arrow.   Ive flown both and looked at both when I began the process of acquiring a plane.  I’m really glad I went with a Mooney. 

[Schllc]

7 hours ago, jamicozzi said:

Wow. Thanks for the quick response!

The one we are looking at was kept in Michigan and logbooks reflect that it spent most if its time there. I'll be looking those over again just to make sure I did not miss anything. 

We opted for a pre-buy at our expense by Thoroughbred Aviation at Lexington, KY. I hadn't asked about the Pre-buy counting as an Annual but will check on that. Last Annual on this was in December, so not much difference there, but interested to hear whether anything new popped up.

We are in Northeast Ohio and will be based at Medina Muni (1G5).

There are a few places that will review the log books for a nominal fee, and this would be probably the best investment in the prepurchase. If you have not owned a Mooney as well as the model, you will not know the real common things to look for like gear pucks, o2 bottles, magnetos, some of these interval items can really add up, there are also certain sb’s that are widely regarded as mandatory, or highly advisable.  Each plane and model has their own idiosyncrasies and trades offs, and while not knowing them up front may not be dealbreakers, it would make the experience better,  by setting proper expectations, which is key to a good transaction.
Few planes out there are truly perfect, descriptions are wildly subjective, it’s not unusual to be looking at an ad using 10 year old pictures, and sellers typically not in duress, and sometimes have irrational ideas of valuation. Knowing what you are talking about will really make the purchase a better experience. 
I have never owned a M20J  but there are lots of guys here with many years of ownership experience in that model.  Good luck and hope you find one and stick around. 

[Will.iam]

On 2/3/2024 at 7:58 AM, jamicozzi said:

Hello all! 

I am new to the site and new to Mooney. I grew up on Cessna and more recently Pipers. My daughter got her PPL and we are both now setting out to get our IR and to do some XC. We will be looking at a Mooney M20J next week. I've always admired the Mooneys but didn't think it would be in the cards. Looks like this one may be a possibility for us.

Operating costs seem pretty reasonable, and it certainly fits the mission (we could move all the way through a Commercial if that is what we decide to do). Seems like a good platform for us. (We were originally considering the Piper Arrow). 

What do we need to know?

No but really check the insurance rate especially for 2 of you starting out. It’s going to be eye watering and you need to be sitting down for that number. Getting 100 hrs in the first year will be the biggest drop but you might want to ask what that will go down to. There is a reason cirrus is so popular with that FIXED gear. 

[Pinecone]

OTOH, you have to get your retract hours somewhere.

Either a bunch of money renting, or that first year insurance bill.

[rickseeman]

M20J's have had a walk-on-water reputation for over 40 years. There is a reason. They are great planes.

[NewMoon]

On 2/3/2024 at 9:24 PM, Schllc said:

There are a few places that will review the log books for a nominal fee, and this would be probably the best investment in the prepurchase. If you have not owned a Mooney as well as the model, you will not know the real common things to look for like gear pucks, o2 bottles, magnetos, some of these interval items can really add up, there are also certain sb’s that are widely regarded as mandatory, or highly advisable.  Each plane and model has their own idiosyncrasies and trades offs, and while not knowing them up front may not be dealbreakers, it would make the experience better,  by setting proper expectations, which is key to a good transaction.
Few planes out there are truly perfect, descriptions are wildly subjective, it’s not unusual to be looking at an ad using 10 year old pictures, and sellers typically not in duress, and sometimes have irrational ideas of valuation. Knowing what you are talking about will really make the purchase a better experience. 
I have never owned a M20J  but there are lots of guys here with many years of ownership experience in that model.  Good luck and hope you find one and stick around. 

I totally agree, a small fee for a professional to look over the logs is very cheap insurance 

[A64Pilot]

Personally I wouldn’t worry about small items like gear pucks, tires, brake pads they are a wear item and I’ve not heard of any accidents attributed to them.

An argument can be made however if they are worn it points to shoddy maintenance, maybe or maybe not who knows?

CORROSION is the big issue, it’s an airplane killer, pretty much everything else can be fixed but significant corrosion and you bought very expensive scrap.

In my opinion talk to whoever is doing the pre-buy after day one they should be able to have an opinion if it’s worth going any further or not, if they say you found a good airplane, turn it into an Annual, if not we’ll keep looking, no need to continue and spend money on something that has issues. There are several threads in this forum where the airplane passed the pre-buy but the first Annual is a nightmare.

Another opinion but as an IA I believe it’s because a pre-buy doesn’t exist in FAA vocabulary, but an Annual is required and therefore very well defined in what has to be checked. A pre-buy can be more through than an Annual, or it can be a kick the tires and a looks good to me. If they miss something really big and pretty obvious on a pre-buy you have no recourse. I believe an Annual is first requires an IA, and as they can get into trouble from the FAA they may take them more seriously.

There is a reason why I’ve seen more than one or two threads about the nightmare first Annual.

Ideally you have the pre-buy / Annual done by whomever will be taking care of the airplane in the future, this should prevent the nightmare first annual, or at least you get to ask why didn’t you find that last year? 

If at all possible take time off work and participate in the inspection, tell them your willing and able to do all the grunt work, washing, pulling panels, interior seats, cowlings etc while they are scrubbing books, and beside you can run grab lunch for everyone. Your really, really need to be there if you can swing it.

I was an A&P before I was an airplane owner and as an owner I have never dealt with big shops, those I expect won’t allow you to participate.

Do you know now who will be doing your work / Annuals?

Do NOT buy something thinking I’ll redo this and that etc right away, most likely first year ain’t going to be cheap so don’t spend money on shiny things the first year, and secondly you really don’t know exactly what you need as opposed to what you have read are must haves, after the first year you will have a handle on what your needs really are.

Myself I worry much more about the bones and engine and prop and wear on gear, total time, age on tank sealing or maybe bladders etc than I do about interior and paint. In fact I’ve found that the real deals are on ugly birds so to speak. People can have a run out engine and prop etc., but have glass and pretty paint and think they have something that will bring top dollar

[M20F]

On 2/3/2024 at 8:58 AM, jamicozzi said:

Mit certainly fits the mission (we could move all the way through a Commercial if that is what we decide to do). L

What is the mission?

[jamicozzi]

Well the first one did not work out. Back into the search process. We are pretty settled on the Mooney M20 series, C-J. Any more than that is really out of our price range. These really seem to hit all of our mission set - XC, efficient, complex time builder. Plus, I've yet to find a Mooney owner that had not fallen in love with their machine.

[201Steve]

Take your budget and go ahead and do yourself a favor and increase it by 25%. 
 

I just flew my J from the coast of Georgia nonstop to Dallas with a 25 knot headwind the whole way and still had 12 gallons on board when I landed. It’s so very capable. 
 

expect the buying process to take about a year if you want value and most importantly, a good bird. It’s a part time job if you aren’t using a broker. You should know every plane on the market and be aware of new ones within 24 hours, prepared to move forward at any moment. 
 

my contribution 
 

[Hank]

I took my C on a 375nm trip, AL to NC, plus the "stay out of the Bravo" from Arlanta. What happened to manners? Too many Yankees work there--they used to say "remain clear of the Bravo."

Anyway, with 20-25° east crosswind correction, it was 3:15 and 32 gallons up in the morning, and 3:20 and 28 gallons back home that afternoon. Not too shabby. I figure the Bravo detour added 20 minutes or 45 nm based on my groundspeed, or 420nm total.

That's pretty good performance with a carburetor. 

Enjoy your search!

[jamicozzi]

I think we found one! 261 conversion. We’ll start the inspection process now, but this is as close as we’ve gotten. 

[Fly Boomer]

43 minutes ago, jamicozzi said:

I think we found one! 261 conversion. We’ll start the inspection process now, but this is as close as we’ve gotten. 

Keep us in the loop.

[jamicozzi]

We finally made it through inspection and finalized a deal! If everything goes smoothly, we close Monday and will bring it home late next week!

Will post some pics shortly. Then will be asking lots of questions…

[shawnd]

Congrats! Depending on avionics - start saving money for it now :-)

[Will.iam]

On 5/24/2024 at 5:14 PM, jamicozzi said:

I think we found one! 261 conversion. We’ll start the inspection process now, but this is as close as we’ve gotten. 

That’s a fire wall forward 252 setup that was done by mod works IIRC. If it is the MB engine a good happy place LOP cruise setting is 25”MP 2500rpm and 10gph fuel flow. It works at all altitudes with you going faster TAS as you go higher. 

[N201MKTurbo]

Is it in Washington?

[Pinecone]

16 hours ago, Will.iam said:

That’s a fire wall forward 252 setup that was done by mod works IIRC. If it is the MB engine a good happy place LOP cruise setting is 25”MP 2500rpm and 10gph fuel flow. It works at all altitudes with you going faster TAS as you go higher. 

I run my -SB at 29.5", 2300 and 10.1 GPH.  But LOP, the HP is directly related to GPH, so any setting that is allowed and 10 GPH will be the same.

 

[Will.iam]

On 6/24/2024 at 9:36 AM, Pinecone said:

I run my -SB at 29.5", 2300 and 10.1 GPH.  But LOP, the HP is directly related to GPH, so any setting that is allowed and 10 GPH will be the same.

 

I can do that down low but 10k and above it starts to get rough. (Cooler more dense air effectively increasing my LOP? Also speed starts dropping off more at higher altitudes at 2300 compared to 2500 and for some reason my CHT’s seem to go up more than when at 2500. Don’t understand that but i know my setting is good for all altitudes up to 20k. At 22k in the summer i have to crack the cowl flaps a little to keep the cylinders at 380. 

[jamicozzi]

On 6/23/2024 at 8:36 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

Is it in Washington?

Yep. Had it inspected ar LASAR. But home base was in Washington.