Best place to find a low-time M20E or M20J

[Aceleo]

Hello,

I am a new forum member. I am purchasing my first aircraft and I am looking into getting a Mooney M20E. Recently I found one that was in decent shape, going for 70k but the engine was quite old and I had to pass. My budget is under $90K and was hoping to find a low time M20E. Possibly a M20F for the right price.

I have been looking on Trade a Pane, Barnstormers and Controller quite a lot but nothing in my price range is coming up in the past couple of weeks. If something does come up, its got a lot of hours. I also joined the Mooney Facebook group but haven't seen anything there. But then I hear people finding their aircraft quite fast.

My question is, where else should I be looking? Is there a secret Mooney Sell/Trade website I am not aware of? Feel free to PM me with any suggestions!

Thank you

[Rwsavory]

Jimmy Garrison is a good resource and has an excellent reputation among Mooney owners.  https://gmaxamericanaircraft.com/

BTW, having a lot of hours is not necessarily a bad thing. Aircraft are meant to be flown, not sit around. Also, consider expanding your search to include C models. 

[PT20J]

Brokers often find and sell airplanes that are never listed. I would call a few and tell them exactly what you want and be ready to move if they call you with a prospect. Might take a while. Might be tomorrow. No telling. 

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Aceleo said:

I am a new forum member. I am purchasing my first aircraft and I am looking into getting a Mooney M20E. . . . . . If something does come up, its got a lot of hours.

What is "a lot of hours" to you? There's a member here who had a J with 10,000 hours, it flew just fine [and often!]

Be aware that production of the4 C, E and F models stopped in the mid-1970s, and that long periods with few hours can lead to engine deterioration, among other things.

[DCarlton]

You can find a good E or F for $90K.  Be patient.  I wouldn’t worry so much about airframe hours either.  Look at overall history and condition.  If I were ready to sell, I’d take $90K for my F and it’s a solid airplane.  

[M20F]

22 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

, I’d take $90 for my F and it’s a solid airplane.  

Let me be the first to offer $90.00

[TheAv8r]

8 minutes ago, M20F said:

Let me be the first to offer $90.00

$95.70!

[KSMooniac]

I concur about not fixating on "low time" airframes when shopping for Mooneys.  They are quite robust, and the wear items are easily replaceable...things like rod end bearings or similar.  The killer you do not want to get is one that has been sitting and has corrosion!  That will be the most likely fatal blow for many airframes...otherwise, fly and maintain, improve when you can, and enjoy!  It is quite possible to have a "better" airplane by many metrics with 8k or 10k on the airframe, continuous use and maintenance, versus a 2k airframe with many periods of inactivity.  There are no known fatigue problems or life limits with the Mooney fleet that should make any Mooney with more than some arbitrary amount of use a deal-breaker.

My dad would say "have patience RIGHT NOW" while you're shopping.  It might take a while to find the right airplane.  It is not an emergency situation to purchase a 50-60 year old plane so get your ducks in a row, know what you want/need in a candidate, assign values to various variables that are important to you, such as engine time, cosmetics, panel, autopilot, etc. so you can objectively evaluate candidates, and then be ready to pounce when the right one appears.  The market appears to be softening, but good planes at the right price will still move quickly.

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, M20F said:

Let me be the first to offer $90.00

Corrected the error.  I guess this is why we need brokers, to protect guys like me from themselves.  

[Aceleo]

I apologize for not making it clear about the hours. I am talking about low SMOH hours. I just did not want to have to deal with engine overhauls so soon into purchasing my first aircraft.

I am pretty fixated on the Es or maybe the Js. Es because I do not think I will have 4 passengers and also the IO-360 engine is efficient. I am really looking for something very efficient as I plan on flying a lot for hours and occasional CCx. I am not looking to go too fast. I do not really want a C as I’d like to avoid carbureted engines.

Thank you to everyone for the suggestions so far.

[DCarlton]

1 minute ago, Aceleo said:

I apologize for not making it clear about the hours. I am talking about low SMOH hours. I just did not want to have to deal with engine overhauls so soon into purchasing my first aircraft.

I am pretty fixated on the Es or maybe the Js. Es because I do not think I will have 4 passengers and also the IO-360 engine is efficient. I am really looking for something very efficient as I plan on flying a lot for hours and occasional CCx. I am not looking to go too fast. I do not really want a C as I’d like to avoid carbureted engines.

Thank you to everyone for the suggestions so far.

I was looking for an E when I found my F.  Don’t rule out an F.  A good J will very likely be above $90k.  

[Utah20Gflyer]

30 minutes ago, Aceleo said:

I apologize for not making it clear about the hours. I am talking about low SMOH hours. I just did not want to have to deal with engine overhauls so soon into purchasing my first aircraft.

I am pretty fixated on the Es or maybe the Js. Es because I do not think I will have 4 passengers and also the IO-360 engine is efficient. I am really looking for something very efficient as I plan on flying a lot for hours and occasional CCx. I am not looking to go too fast. I do not really want a C as I’d like to avoid carbureted engines.

Thank you to everyone for the suggestions so far.

The IO360 is only more efficient than the O360 in cruise when ran lean of peak.  Every other situation the O360 will burn less fuel.  It takes avgas to make that extra 20hp.  Even LOP in cruise you are probably only saving maybe 1/2 a gallon an hour.   I conservatively plan 9 gph for cruise but in reality am doing 8-8.5 gph, sometimes in the 7s if I go up to 12,500.  This is at WOT.  
 

Im not trying to make the case the O360 is better just that they are VERY similar and both have their advantages and disadvantages.  If I was in your situation I would pick the best plane I could find regardless of which engine it had.  
 

I also wouldn’t focus too much on low time although I understand where you are coming from.  Being flown regularly and properly maintained are the two things you actually want to pay attention to.  Low time is no guarantee of not having to do a major overhaul.  A 300 hour SMOH that was overhauled 12 years ago is high risk.  The plane that has a 12 year old engine with 1800 hours on it actually has a lower risk of needing an overhaul.  Lower risk but not no risk. It’s a plane so financial risk is baked in.  
 

The purchase is a small part of the total cost of ownership.  It normally pays to buy the best loved and maintained airplane you can find.   It’s cheaper to buy a well maintained airplane than rehab one.  Catch up maintenance isn’t cheap.  
 

 

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, Aceleo said:

I do not think I will have 4 passengers and also the IO-360 engine is efficient. I am really looking for something very efficient as I plan on flying a lot for hours and occasional CCx.

Don't need four seats and want something efficient. That screams experimental to me. An RV, Lancair or Glasair.

[ZuluZulu]

2 hours ago, Aceleo said:

I apologize for not making it clear about the hours. I am talking about low SMOH hours. I just did not want to have to deal with engine overhauls so soon into purchasing my first aircraft.

I am pretty fixated on the Es or maybe the Js. Es because I do not think I will have 4 passengers and also the IO-360 engine is efficient. I am really looking for something very efficient as I plan on flying a lot for hours and occasional CCx. I am not looking to go too fast. I do not really want a C as I’d like to avoid carbureted engines.

Thank you to everyone for the suggestions so far.

As others are saying the F has essentially the same engine as the J, so if you want an E or a J then you also want an F.  Another good reason is a budget under $90k will eliminate virtually every J worth having.  This is the closest you can get on Controller right now.  

[Echo]

Don’t compromise. An M20E sounds right for your mission.  Have insurance, Hanger and financing/money ready to go so you can pounce when ready. Wise counsel already provided on Avionics and engine hours/age. Good luck in your hunt.

[Aceleo]

Really appreciate everyone’s advice.
Any thoughts/suggestions on the following aircraft?

1966 Mooney M20E

Thank you

[DCarlton]

32 minutes ago, Aceleo said:

Really appreciate everyone’s advice.
Any thoughts/suggestions on the following aircraft?

1966 Mooney M20E

Thank you

I’m no expert but what appears to be corrosion on the rudder actuator looks like it needs attention.  That’s a steel part.  I think it’s called a horn.  Odd they let that go.  Check in to the price of a paint job.   Prices have gone way up.  

[Aceleo]

7 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

I’m no expert but what appears to be corrosion on the rudder actuator looks like it needs attention.  That’s a steel part.  I think it’s called a horn.  Odd they let that go.  Check in to the price of a paint job.   Prices have gone way up.  

I already asked the dealer about it. He said he touched it and it was just the color of the iron.

he mentioned a basic white paint job will cost around $4k. If I want a better design paint, then it will cost $8k-$10k.

[MikeOH]

Don't get hung up on engine hours.  Recent and consistent use is far more important. I followed this advice and got my F for a good price because the engine was over TBO (2100 hours)....that was six years and 500 hours ago, and it's still running just fine.  The previous owner flew it  100 hours per year for the thirteen years he owned it.  Additionally, that consistent and recent use meat that he was maintaining the plane resulting in no big $$$hits nor downtime after I bought it.

Remember, even a low time engine owes you nothing and you don't know how it was overhauled; you may be paying a premium and end up having to OH anyway!  If you buy with a high-time engine and need to OH, you will be in control of the OH.

Not having looked at painting costs I can't be certain, but the 'dealer' paint cost seem pretty low to me.  You should call a couple of shops and ask.

[MikeOH]

51 minutes ago, Aceleo said:

I already asked the dealer about it. He said he touched it and it was just the color of the iron.

Not to be too critical, but it sure looks like rust to me. Looks like it was gray. It looks minor but suggests a very careful look at hidden areas is in order.  Of course brown iron oxide is a color of iron, I suppose...most people just call it rust

 

[MB65E]

Airplane looks really clean and straight from the pictures. I wouldn’t paint it. 
I haven’t seen anyone quote a single color for under 10k.

That rudder horn is easily correctable.

95k is still a premium price.

-Matt

[Greg Ellis]

14 hours ago, Aceleo said:

I am not looking to go too fast. I do not really want a C as I’d like to avoid carbureted engines.

Thank you to everyone for the suggestions so far.

So, you actually enjoy hard to start hot starts and flooded starts?  

Before anyone takes offense to this, I am just kidding of course.

[Fly Boomer]

9 hours ago, Aceleo said:

Really appreciate everyone’s advice.
Any thoughts/suggestions on the following aircraft?

1966 Mooney M20E

I'll bet a close examination of the logs will show some years with "normal" activity (100 hours?) but will also have gaps or years with zero activity.  Also, all that bare aluminum is just an invitation to corrosion.  Paint is not without problems, but one of its functions is to protect the aluminum.  A good quality paint job these days is around $30k.  The seller can say it would be much less because it's already stripped, but I suspect there will still be significant labor involved in prep on aluminum that has had no protection for years.  Finally, that seems like a lot of money for an airplane that raises questions.

BOTTOM LINE:
1. high price
2. questionable hours per year
3. paint

[Utah20Gflyer]

11 hours ago, Aceleo said:

Really appreciate everyone’s advice.
Any thoughts/suggestions on the following aircraft?

1966 Mooney M20E

Thank you

The engine overhaul is 25 years old.  With 900 hours that puts average utilization at 36 hours per year which might be ok depending on how it happened and where it happened.  You’ll need to get access to the log books so you can learn more.  There is a decent chance it sat for some period of time.   You need to know if and when it sat, for how long, how many hours it’s been flown since it sat.  Any engine that sits unused is very high risk until 200-300 hours have been put on it in a relatively short period of time.    What part of the country it sat in is also an important consideration.  
 

A decent paint job is probably 15k, I would want a discount for no paint. Polished aluminum is a lot of work to maintain properly.  
 

GI 275s are very nice, the lack of WAAS is a negative, you have a relatively easy upgrade path via Avadyne though but still at least 10k.  

 

[Huckster79]

When I hunted my F, and like you are with the E, I was with the F- it was the model I wanted.

I ended up making an excel sheet of all the planes listed that caught my eye, even if they weren’t Uber high on my list.  I did a column for engine hours, years since overhaul, avionics, gear puck age, which prop it had, price, Johnson bar or electric gear, all logs,  etc.  If one sold I marked it as such but kept it.  Over my hunt it became easier to quickly identify value.