MOSAIC LSA rule change

[MattCW]

Ever since my first thread exploring potential future Mooney ownership once I finish training, I've continued to lurk and am enjoying soaking up all the practical aviation knowledge that's shared here. So I hope I'm ok in starting this thread, this might actually have some affect on the aircraft market, including Mooneys. It looks like the FAA has published their proposed rule changes for Light Sport Aircraft and Sport Pilots: https://public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2023-14425.pdf

My initial thinking is this could cause used aircraft that would meet the new rules, such as C172s, Cherokees, etc., to go way up in value, while aircraft just above these limitations, like the Mooneys we're all on here to talk about, C210s, Cherokee Sixes, etc., would go down since people would theoretically, have a cheaper route to still quite capable aircraft through the Sport Pilot License.

[toto]

I’m not sure that it would have a huge impact on used aircraft prices. The same thing happened with the original LSA rule, which allows antique LSAs (think Aeronca Champ) to be operated under the rule as long as they meet the limitations. Although the sellers of these aircraft often promote the LSA compatibility in Barnstormers ads, there hasn’t been a huge upswing in A-LSA values over incompatible peers.

[Hank]

Wow. No more weight limit, no horsepower limit, no restrictions against retractable gear or adjustable pitch propellers! Only Vs1 <= 54 knots CAS = 62 mph. Let me check my Owners Manual real fast . . . . Hmmm, she stalls at 67 mph IAS; the Airspeed Correction Chart starts at 70 mph, which is 67 mph CAS, making Vs0 = 64 mph CAS. Hmmm . . . . .

[McMooney]

is that stall speed with  full flaps or clean?

[Pinecone]

Clean

[BKlott]

The proposed rules would seem to be a way a to eliminate the Third Class Medical nonsense for many of us and many of the airplanes that we fly.

[hammdo]

I’d love it if I could get A&P/IA for my Mooney…

-Don

[ArtVandelay]

Would it drop the price?
Is getting a PP really that much more burden than a LS?
If our planes are now LSAs, would that labeling lower the prestige and the prices?

[Pinecone]

Hmm, if my plane becomes an LSA and I don't need even Basic Med, does that remove the altitude restriction of Basic Med??????

[A64Pilot]

The original LSA rule didn’t do much really for existing aircraft, and I don’t expect this one to either, I think it’s to allow manufacture of new larger LSA’s

[gmonnig]

I don't think any Mooneys qualify. I do wish the stall speed in MOSAIC would've been in landing configuration (VS0 instead of the VS1). Then a lot of Mooneys would've been classified as light sport. 

[ChrisH]

Exciting, some of the ELSA's that will qualify are amazing though, JMB vl3, Risen, etc. Be interesting to see if they take a bit of the Cirrus apple. 

[dominikos]

… if mooney were qualified as LSA, would having LSRM allow me to maintain it? I know a scary idea but nevertheless…

I assume having LSRM sign off on annual would really bring value over time…

[glbtrottr]

And that’s what the hand wringing is about. Since we are in the comment period of the NPRM…send cards and love notes asking for a higher stall speed.

If we can raise the stall speed to mooney speeds, yesssss

[jonhop]

I commented on the NPRM to change the metric to Ls0 vs Ls1, as they stated they are using the " V _s1 limitation that will indirectly limit the weight to around 3,000 pounds." I also provided a printout of my POH stall speeds showing that at 2740lbs, 53KCAS is achievable at Ls0. I mentioned that LSAs are also leveraging flaps to achieve lower landing speeds, so Ls0 makes more sense to use as the metric than Ls1. I stated the obvious that aircraft that have no flaps, Ls1 and Ls0 are equal.  Fingers crossed.

[pmccand]

I read all 350+ pages of the proposed rule changes...and remember about 3%. 

Having said that... (and if IIRC), the MOSAIC rules will allow the use of any TWO of the combination of controls of a complex aircraft with proper endorsements at a time.  You as a pilot can be signed off for flaps, variable prop, and retractable landing gear, but you cannot fly an aircraft with all three simultaneously under the proposed MOSAIC rules.  Since the Mooney has all three, it shouldn't be eligible.  This would eliminate a lot of complex aircraft. 

That's how I read it.  Looks like the end of discussion for Mooney's being eligible for light sport regardless of the stall speed.

[toto]

1 hour ago, pmccand said:

I read all 350+ pages of the proposed rule changes...and remember about 3%. 

Having said that... (and if IIRC), the MOSAIC rules will allow the use of any TWO of the combination of controls of a complex aircraft with proper endorsements at a time.  You as a pilot can be signed off for flaps, variable prop, and retractable landing gear, but you cannot fly an aircraft with all three simultaneously under the proposed MOSAIC rules.  Since the Mooney has all three, it shouldn't be eligible.  This would eliminate a lot of complex aircraft. 

That's how I read it.  Looks like the end of discussion for Mooney's being eligible for light sport regardless of the stall speed.

It’s an interesting document. They say several times “retractable landing gear OR controllable pitch propeller” and they mention the proposal to reverse longstanding FAA policy on complex aircraft operations by sport pilots. But I couldn’t find anywhere that they actually spell out what complex aircraft operations would be permitted. They seem focused on the need for an endorsement to operate any one of the three complex components.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/07/24/2023-14425/modernization-of-special-airworthiness-certification

[Hank]

5 hours ago, toto said:

It’s an interesting document. They say several times “retractable landing gear OR controllable pitch propeller” and they mention the proposal to reverse longstanding FAA policy on complex aircraft operations by sport pilots. But I couldn’t find anywhere that they actually spell out what complex aircraft operations would be permitted. They seem focused on the need for an endorsement to operate any one of the three complex components.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/07/24/2023-14425/modernization-of-special-airworthiness-certification

I'm fine needing a complex endorsement to fly my Mooney--got it years and years ago. But qualifying the airframe as LSA would make a big difference as we all age in place . . . .

My goal is to join the UFO Club, and doing it in my Mooney would be nice.

[Fly Boomer]

On 3/24/2024 at 6:51 PM, Hank said:

I'm fine needing a complex endorsement to fly my Mooney--got it years and years ago. But qualifying the airframe as LSA would make a big difference as we all age in place . . . .

My goal is to join the UFO Club, and doing it in my Mooney would be nice.

Unleaded Fuel Only?

[toto]

8 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Unleaded Fuel Only?

I believe that’s the United Flying Octogenarians

 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, toto said:

I believe that’s the United Flying Octogenarians

 

Yep, just 18-1/2 years to go!

[gacoon]

On 7/30/2023 at 5:34 AM, Pinecone said:

Hmm, if my plane becomes an LSA and I don't need even Basic Med, does that remove the altitude restriction of Basic Med??????

Dont think so, current drivers license medical replacement limits pilot to 10k, with some AGL exception to clear ground higher than 10k

[Fly Boomer]

On 3/28/2024 at 2:31 PM, Hank said:

Yep, just 18-1/2 years to go!

A young man!