Been thinking

[A64Pilot]

I know that’s dangerous, but during the conversation about how many gear ups there are, and obviously when we get busy doing things we turn off aural warnings. By that I mean we of course hear the gear alarm but the brain obviously ignores it. Sure a voice alarm telling you to check gear isn’t bad, but your already ignoring sounds or you would recognize that obnoxious alarm for what it is.

It would be child’s play to put a bright red LED in the instrument panel that shined in our eyes connected to the gear aural warning so that we would get a light in the face, and it’s likely that being a visual thing we would see it and recognize it for what it is, or I think I would anyway, harder to ignore a bright light than a noise, have to be bright though, not just a segment light.

As we aren’t changing any current alarm it ought to be a simple minor mod

Edited June 26, 2023 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

On our boat you needed to turn the propane off whenever the stove wasn’t being used, because propane being heavier than air if there was a leak would gather in the bilge and literally blow the boat up, there was an electric solenoid. The Wife would remember to turn the thing on, but not off so I put this LED in the electric panel, it always got my attention as it was quite bright and I would turn the propane switch off.

I think it would work well for this purpose, it’s small but bright

 

 

[201Steve]

Hmm. Neat idea. I know I have to deal with the alarn from time to time when chopping power to descend, before you’re ready for gear. Not too frequently, but… annoying red light also  
 

I try to avoid the tactic generally speaking, so I don’t condition myself to ignore the sound. 

[N201MKTurbo]

About 20 years ago I was going to a convention in Boston. I had it all planed put. I got a hotel out on the 128 right next to the commuter train station. Train ride downtown, get on the orange line to the convention.

Well right when I was getting off the freeway, a truck full of liquid nat gas rolled over and caught on fire right in front of me. I told my wife we should get out and run. She said I was over reacting. The LNG wasn’t on fire, the cab was. We were able to make our way around the crash and get off the freeway. Our hotel was right next to the crash along with three other hotels. They evacuated the other three, but figured ours was far enough away that it was ok.

So the whole point of this story is, in the morning I walked to the train station to find they had shut the train down because of the truck. There was another guy there trying to catch the train too. I asked him which hotel he was staying at and he said the one right next to the station. I asked “didn’t they evacuate that hotel” he said yes, but I never got the message. I said “the fire alarm is still going I can hear it from here” he said he was a doctor who works in a hospital and there are so many alarms in the hospital that he doesn’t hear them any more.

[ilovecornfields]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

he said he was a doctor who works in a hospital and there are so many alarms in the hospital that he doesn’t hear them any more

He was probably telling the truth. I was in a patients room talking to a patient and there was a nursing student in there doing her thing. The alarm went off because the oxygen saturation was too low and she immediately pressed the “silence” button and kept doing what she was doing. I asked her why she just silenced it instead of actually doing something to address the low oxygen level and she said “oh, that’s what everyone does.” Alarm fatigue is real.

[EricJ]

I think it happens with all kinds of stimulus.    When I was an undergrad I lived in a very small house adjacent to an intersection with a rail crossing.    Once with a bunch of classmates over one of them asked me, "How do you put up with that?"    "With what?"  "THAT!"   "Uhhh...wut?"  "THE TRAIN!"   There was a train rumbling loudly by, making a lot of train noises.   I was not hearing it at all and had forgotten that trains even went there.

Cats, and dogs, are pretty good at it.  Many parents, too.

[Skates97]

I did something similar to what you are suggesting for my fuel pump. I put an amber LED in the panel next to the green/red gear down/up lights. If the electric pump is on the amber light is on. It is a reminder when taking off that the pump is on and later in cruise helps me remember to turn it off.

[Will.iam]

3 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

,,, Sure a voice alarm telling you to check gear isn’t bad, but your already ignoring sounds or you would recognize that obnoxious alarm for what it is.

I beg to differ on the voice alarm if it only sounds when you have the condition.  Like the LHS with a wire to the actual landing gear switch so that it only sounds when the gear is still up.  I back this up with in the simulator at one time or another we have ignored different warnings and or alarms, but the one I have never ignored and always respond to? the terrain terrain pull up pull up. even if we are briefing up the approach or running an engine failure check list, that one warning gets you refocused because you never hear it unless it's actually a situation.  Even if it was a false alarm, you climb up first then figure out why it went off. not while you are still down there.  IMO I think the LHS tied into the gear switch is a great safety feature that would keep me from landing gear up but I'm sure someone will do it eventually.

[kortopates]

I agree that voice alarms are very effective when they are meaningful. I don't have the newer LHS, just the original one that says check gear. But my P2 Audio Advisory system only says Check Gear when the Gear isn't down, other wise it just calls out 85 kts. Saying only to check gear when its not down is highly effective.

 

[kortopates]

38 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

I did something similar to what you are suggesting for my fuel pump. I put an amber LED in the panel next to the green/red gear down/up lights. If the electric pump is on the amber light is on. It is a reminder when taking off that the pump is on and later in cruise helps me remember to turn it off.

I've seen this in a number of clients aircraft, its a good idea that I think stems back to the days of when the pumps weren't rated for continuous duty and would burn out much more quickly. Still very worthwhile though.

[A64Pilot]

7 hours ago, Will.iam said:

I beg to differ on the voice alarm if it only sounds when you have the condition.  Like the LHS with a wire to the actual landing gear switch so that it only sounds when the gear is still up.  I back this up with in the simulator at one time or another we have ignored different warnings and or alarms, but the one I have never ignored and always respond to? the terrain terrain pull up pull up. even if we are briefing up the approach or running an engine failure check list, that one warning gets you refocused because you never hear it unless it's actually a situation.  Even if it was a false alarm, you climb up first then figure out why it went off. not while you are still down there.  IMO I think the LHS tied into the gear switch is a great safety feature that would keep me from landing gear up but I'm sure someone will do it eventually.

The Aural gear horn only sounds when the gear is up, so how is the voice different?  This LED would only trigger when the gear alarm does, I’m think install is as easy as splicing the LED into the alarms power wire. Not saying the LHS is bad, but what did it cost all in?

I am not saying the voice isn’t bad, I’m all for pretty much as many different alarms as I could get, I wouldn’t be against a flag that popped up out of the glareshield, waved back and forth that said put the gear down, or as I’ve posted one that put the gear down for me. One thing is clear, what we have currently doesn’t seem to work very well, we need some thing better

Just I think a bright LED would be very simple and cheap to implement, and I think visual as well as sound may be more effective. Ideally I think the thing ought to flash, seems a flashing light gets even more attention.

I flash the headlight on my motorcycle as well as its brake lights on that theory. I have them flash rapidly for about a sec then go solid so they get attention, without hopefully becoming obnoxious, however I’m nearly certain it’s illegal to flash brake lights for some reason or other, Elon Musk had the Tesla flash it’s if you braked extremely hard and on stopping the hazards came on automatically, the Feds made him stop the brake light flashing, but I think the hazards still come on but not sure.

Decades ago as a kid I had an idea, I think brake lights ought to flash, and the harder your on the brakes the faster they ought to flash, give the guy following an idea just how hard the car ahead of them is on the brakes.

Edited June 26, 2023 by A64Pilot

[Utah20Gflyer]

How about instead of a light we install a device that provides a exhilarating but safe electrical shock!

Joking aside my strategy for alarm fatigue is to never allow alarms to continue.  So for example if I need to decend rapidly before putting my gear down I never pull the throttle out enough for the gear horn to go off because I don’t want the gear horn to be something I get used to.  If it goes off I immediately do something to resolve it.   Silencing it isn’t an option so I either have to put the gear down or increase throttle.  

[RoundTwo]

23 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

The Aural gear horn only sounds when the gear is up, so how is the voice different?  This LED would only trigger when the gear alarm does, I’m think install is as easy as splicing the LED into the alarms power wire. Not saying the LHS is bad, but what did it cost all in?

I am not saying the voice isn’t bad, I’m all for pretty much as many different alarms as I could get, I wouldn’t be against a flag that popped up out of the glareshield, waved back and forth that said put the gear down, or as I’ve posted one that put the gear down for me. One thing is clear, what we have currently doesn’t seem to work very well, we need some thing better

Just I think a bright LED would be very simple and cheap to implement, and I think visual as well as sound may be more effective. Ideally I think the thing ought to flash, seems a flashing light gets even more attention.

I flash the headlight on my motorcycle as well as its brake lights on that theory. I have them flash rapidly for about a sec then go solid so they get attention, without hopefully becoming obnoxious, however I’m nearly certain it’s illegal to flash brake lights for some reason or other, Elon Musk had the Tesla flash it’s if you braked extremely hard and on stopping the hazards came on automatically, the Feds made him stop the brake light flashing, but I think the hazards still come on but not sure.

Decades ago as a kid I had an idea, I think brake lights ought to flash, and the harder your on the brakes the faster they ought to flash, give the guy following an idea just how hard the car ahead of them is on the brakes.

The main function, and value, of the LHS is close proximity AGL alerting, not gear alarm. The gear alert is just icing.

[Echo]

Years ago the benefits of an audible "spoken" gear not down alarm were challenged aggressively on this site by "real pilots".  Meanwhile the gear up incidents continue.  I love the light on panel idea.  A verbal alarm like P2 is also very valuable IMO.  Humans are fallible to task/stress induced saturation.  Alarms help whether audible or visual.

[RoundTwo]

12 minutes ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

How about instead of a light we install a device that provides an exhilarating but safe electrical shock!  

Some would call that the WIFE alarm.

[outermarker]

Aren't there enough built-in safeguards already in place? If you reduce the throttle enough, the horn will alarm. If the gear is either up or down a colored light is illuminated. If you have an electric gear the gear down indicator mark is visible on the floor and if you have a Johnson bar you have physically moved the lever into the down / up position. That is three safeguards. For me, not wanting to stress the gear doors, I lower the gear at maximum flap speed so I get all three gear checks done along with the first flap extension. The other reason I lower the gear at this slower speed is for noise abatement. The throttle is already reduced, the gear check is done and I change the pitch of the prop. There isn't any engine surging caused by the prop which can aggravate people on the ground. It keeps the complaints to a minimum around the airport especially if you are practicing landings.

[N201MKTurbo]

I find the airspeed indicator is the best indicator of gear up. When I turn base I usually reduce power so the RPMs are at the top of the yellow arc. If the airplane is going too fast I wonder why. And then realise it has something to do with that beeping noise.

I have to imagine that a lot of gear ups happen when you are not flying standard patterns. It will throw your routine off.

[GeeBee]

Then of course you get into the "light bulb in refrigerator". How do you know your alarm is working? I can think of two accidents where the Takeoff warning either failed, or was disabled and not reset. Don't get me wrong, I love my LHS, but it lacks BITE. You don't know if it will work or not. There is no substitute for operational discipline.

[Fly Boomer]

55 minutes ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

exhilarating but safe electrical shock!

That made me laugh.  Thanks!

[AIREMATT]

39 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:.

I have to imagine that a lot of gear ups happen when you are not flying standard patterns. It will throw your routine off.

Maybe instead of the usual routine, we need to figure out how to maintain our procedure and checklist discipline. I know, easier said than done, but checklists and procedures are designed for different routines like the guy ahead flying a 747 pattern in his Cub, or a “Turn a 5 mile final and follow the traffic” type variances from our routines. Not to mention the variety of instrument approaches and transitions we have the option to fly, these normal differences don’t even touch on an abnormal or emergency landing distraction. 

[MooneyMitch]

It’s probably been discussed previously, but what do airlines do to avoid gear ups?  Check list, 2 pilots checking, visual and audible indicators, and ? 
 

[Greg Ellis]

We could always go back to the gear warning indicator that was on the Mooney Mite.  Red flag that rotates in front of your view to catch your attention.

About 3 minutes into this video

 

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

How about instead of a light we install a device that provides a exhilarating but safe electrical shock!

There are a fair number of people that would leave the gear up just to get that.     

[Will.iam]

23 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

It’s probably been discussed previously, but what do airlines do to avoid gear ups?  Check list, 2 pilots checking, visual and audible indicators, and ? 
 

Well there is all that plus a checklist on the ecam display that should be all green. If gear not down then that one is in blue. At 800ft there is a red arrow by the gear lever that lights up. And eventually egpws calls out too low gear repeatedly. If the flaps are not in landing flap position it also says too low flaps. There was a crew that was so task saturated and tunnel vision focused as well as going around is so rarely done that a crew did land with flaps at 2 instead of 3 or full so they ignored or didn’t hear the too low flaps warning or inhibited it (doubtful) and landed anyways.   Sometimes the brain just doesn’t comprehend what is really going on  or it’s so far behind the jet that things happen before you are ready for it. Learning to recognize you are behind and slow things down when overwhelmed is vital to operating a plane safely. 

[Justin Schmidt]

3 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

How about instead of a light we install a device that provides a exhilarating but safe electrical shock!

Is this what you have in mind HAHA