Runway Opinions

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, larrynimmo said:

I probably have 2000 landings in my J….and I do really check for crosswinds when I plan on landing on 25’ strips.

40’ is my minimum comfort 

and I consider 2,500’ length or longer with no issue.

the other day, I did three night landings at my home base with full stop by 1,700’ and wasn’t really trying to nail it….my guess is 1,500’ is possible

I have done 1500’. I would not recommend it to anyone who needs to ask if it’s a good idea. It’s minimal margin affair that requires as much judgment as precision. Indeed judgement is the most important aspect for short field landings. Going around is easy and far superior to going off the end of a paved runway.  Night ops change everything.

[Ragsf15e]

16 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

As my Navy flight instructor used to say derisively about the Marine instructors:  "They think a smokin' hole is a small price to pay for a $hit-hot approach."

Not to insult Naval Aviators, but didn’t that $100 million F-35 crash in the S China Sea because the Navy pilot was trying to “buzz the tower” to show off for her last landing on the boat?

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

Not to insult Naval Aviators, but didn’t that $100 million F-35 crash in the S China Sea because the Navy pilot was trying to “buzz the tower” to show off for her last landing on the boat?

An Air Force pilot insulting a Naval Aviator? Naw, it would never happen 

[Pinecone]

18 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

As my Navy flight instructor used to say derisively about the Marine instructors:  "They think a smokin' hole is a small price to pay for a $hit-hot approach."

Better to die than to look bad philosophy

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Not to insult Naval Aviators, but didn’t that $100 million F-35 crash in the S China Sea because the Navy pilot was trying to “buzz the tower” to show off for her last landing on the boat?

Can you link the story? They only F35 crash I can find in the South China Sea involved a male pilot attempting a “$hit Hot” break for the first time. He neglected to activate APC and DFP, the tools that assist with pilot work load during landing (automated AOA and throttle corrections). He ended up low and slow. By the time he realized what was happening and applied full military power, it was too late. This was on the USS Carl Vinson in the South China Sea. Was there another?

 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Can you link the story? They only F35 crash I can find in the South China Sea involved a male pilot attempting a “$hit Hot” break for the first time. He neglected to activate APc and DFP, the tools that assist with pilot work load during landing (automated AOA and throttle corrections). He ended up low and slow. By the time he realized what was happening and applied full military power, it was too late. This was on the USS Carl Vinson in the South China Sea. Was there another?

 

No that’s the one.  I did think it was a female pilot but I could be wrong.  Fighter pilot stories only require 10% truth anyway, so this one is solid gold even if i said a “female pilot did an inverted break and a -4g base turn”.

[Ibra]

It's always advised to base on long runway first and build load of takeoff & landing before moving to short runways

One can get into all kind of fun (overload with bags, hot days, crosswinds...) before "knowing" their aircraft and if it fits homebase & mission 

 

I am sure M20C in 1500ft runway is "doable" but I gather it's usually someone with hundreds of landings on it and knows when to say YES/NO

Edited May 10, 2023 by Ibra

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Ibra said:

It's always advised to base on long runway first and build load of takeoff & landing before moving to short runways

One can get into all kind of fun (overload with bags, hot days, crosswinds...) before "knowing" their aircraft and if it fits homebase & mission 

 

I am sure M20C in 1500ft runway is "doable" but I gather it's usually someone with hundreds of landings on it and knows when to say YES/NO

Like I said, I wouldn’t recommend anyone attempt 1500’.
2700’ on the other hand is not on the ragged edge and is certainly within the realm of what a new pilot could be trained.

[Pinecone]

My home field was 2850 feet.  I had no problem with operating there will maybe 10 landings in my 252.

The runway is being lengthened to about 4900 feet.  

[201Mooniac]

I was based for about a year at KPAO, the runway is 2400' and 70' wide, no problem at all for the M20K I was flying at the time.

[Niko182]

11 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

I was based for about a year at KPAO, the runway is 2400' and 70' wide, no problem at all for the M20K I was flying at the time.

At Palo Alto I usually aim for getting off on the first taxi way. I've done it a decent amount of times. Speed is all that matters. If you can maintain speed, the first exit is doable which I believe its 1000ft from the end of the threshold to the first taxiway. As @Shadrach stated, short strips are possible in Mooneys. I've done some decently short ones in my Slovation. In an older one, a 2700ft runway should be no problem.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

I've done some decently short ones in my Slovation. In an older one, a 2700ft runway should be no problem.

Your Slovation is much faster than my C.

The shortest paved field I visit is 2770 x 30, but I used to go to a grass field that was 2000' long (just not heavy--2 people and half tanks to get out over the trees).

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

At Palo Alto I usually aim for getting off on the first taxi way. I've done it a decent amount of times. Speed is all that matters. If you can maintain speed, the first exit is doable which I believe its 1000ft from the end of the threshold to the first taxiway. As @Shadrach stated, short strips are possible in Mooneys. I've done some decently short ones in my Slovation. In an older one, a 2700ft runway should be no problem.

Absolutely approach speed is key. Being light means approach speed is lower. I don’t think most of the long body owners can fathom how the vintage airframes handle at low weight. With me and half tanks, I’m under 60kias by short final and shooting to be at 50 or less as I enter ground effect.

[Niko182]

7 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Absolutely approach speed is key. Being light means approach speed is lower. I don’t think most of the long body owners can fathom how the vintage airframes handle at low weight. With me and half tanks, I’m under 60kias by short final and shooting to be at 50 or less as I enter ground effect.

What empty weight are you around?

[Shadrach]

25 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

What empty weight are you around?

1680lbs.  Many early C models are closer to 1600.

those speed are for minimum landing distances.

[Mooneymite]

5 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

 Fighter pilot stories only require 10% truth ......

When did they raise the requirement to 10%?

[Hank]

Just now, Shadrach said:

1680lbs.  Many early C models are closer to 1600.

My C is 1609 empty. Solo with half tanks is < 2000 lb.

[Shadrach]

33 minutes ago, Hank said:

My C is 1609 empty. Solo with half tanks is < 2000 lb.

I could get closer to that with some equipment changes but there is no getting around the 40lb weight penalty for the angle valve 360.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I could get closer to that with some equipment changes but there is no getting around the 40lb weight penalty for the angle valve 360.

It all depends on my exact weight and how much junk is in the back. In WV, I had to include winter coats, gloves, etc.

Ballpark 1950 plus junk and belly size. So "< 2000" is all I can say right now . . .

In addition to your extra engine weight,  don't forget the extra foot of cockpit steel frame and outer aluminum skin with paint.

The C continues to amaze me with its versatility. 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

It all depends on my exact weight and how much junk is in the back. In WV, I had to include winter coats, gloves, etc.

Ballpark 1950 plus junk and belly size. So "< 2000" is all I can say right now . . .

In addition to your extra engine weight,  don't forget the extra foot of cockpit steel frame and outer aluminum skin with paint.

The C continues to amaze me with its versatility. 

I’ve read in a few different places that the difference in airframe weight sans engine is just 15lbs.

[A64Pilot]

I’m most often between 2600 and 2700 with full fuel or close to it, 70 lbs of scooters in the baggage with tie down, jumper cables a few tools, oil etc and two not real small people and 2,000 grass is easy, actually our shorter runway I can’t touch down until about half way due to it being down hill until then, it’s 2500 and grass.

Grass matters because braking compared to paved is almost non existent, especially in the morning with dew on it, but anyway once you’re used to it 12 to 1500 isn’t too hard, but you had better touch down at the very beginning in a stall.

My J is like most aircraft I have owned, it will pretty easily land on a strip that it couldn’t get out of, so of course take that into consideration before you slip it into a real short field, because a Mooney is a whole lot harder to trailer than a Cessna or Maule.

The other Mooney on the field is a Bravo and he uses the short runway exclusively as his house is on the West end. I don’t know what a Bravo weighs but surely it’s harder than any C or J short field. However both he and I have a lot of Ag time and that helps as of course they mostly fly off of short and narrow strips.

CG seems to matter more to me than weight, aft CG makes everything easier, the 100 or so lbs I usually carry around in the rear actually helps.

[A64Pilot]

7 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I’ve read in a few different places that the difference in airframe weight sans engine is just 15lbs.

Don’t forget prop, going from two blades to three cost me I believe 17 lbs on the Maule, all of it on the nose of course.

[skykrawler]

I don't understand all this grab an instructor to practice landing on short/narrow runways.  All that means is he will be sitting in the airplane when you run off the end or side. 

All that practice can be done on a longer runway with honest evaluation of your performance using runway markings and distance remaining.

Go practice some slow flight.  The difference for long bodies is inertia after landing.

[rbp]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

don’t know what a Bravo weighs but surely it’s harder than any C or J short field

When my plane was at OAK, I could regularly make the 1100 foot high speed turn off. flaring over the underrun area helps.

[Mooneymite]

55 minutes ago, skykrawler said:

All that practice can be done on a longer runway with honest evaluation of your performance using runway markings and distance remaining.

The Navy prepares nuggets to hit the boat on land based runways. FCLP...field carrier landing practice.  It seems to be a good program.