Upgrade Aspen or Wait for Full Garmin

[donkaye, MCFI]

Certainly the smaller GTN650 Xi is adequate, but it really doesn't compare with the larger screen 750, where you can more comfortably see target trend traffic, weather, storm scope, map, and other items from the pilot set.  Also, the GMA 35c doesn't interface with the 650.  If you combine the size of an external audio panel and 650, the size almost compares to the 750.  While a lot of people like the PMA 450A, it is so easy to manipulate the 35c with the 750, I can't tell the difference between it and the 450A, and you get Telligence to boot.  I've flown both the 750 and 650.  While I like the 650, the 750 outshines it by a large margin in my opinion, and is worth the price difference.

[hubcap]

I went with the GTN650 Xi set up along with the GNX 375 as I wanted redundancy in navigators, and this setup uses basically the same real estate on the panel as the 750.

Garmin also just released the cross-fill functionality to bring in flight plans directly from the 650 to the GNX 375.

 

[MIm20c]

People are always going to recommend what they have in their plane, especially on this site.  I personally believe everything beyond a 430w is icing on the cake. However, a large pfd/mfd is nothing more than a large iPad screen.  Not to be confused with a primary navigator.  Entering things, navigating through the menus, and being able to see all the details with enough fov to be efficient is all easier on the larger screens. 

[Pinecone]

Yes, I do fly with an iPad Mini, yoke mounted, with ForeFlight.   If one large screen is good, four is better.

Another question.  

1)  If I keep the 650Xi, what second nav/com unit?

2) if I switch ot 750Xi, what second nav.com unit (assuming I can't afford to keep the 650Xi)?

[ArtVandelay]

Yes, I do fly with an iPad Mini, yoke mounted, with ForeFlight.   If one large screen is good, four is better.
Another question.  
1)  If I keep the 650Xi, what second nav/com unit?
2) if I switch ot 750Xi, what second nav.com unit (assuming I can't afford to keep the 650Xi)?

GNC 255

[carusoam]

5 hours ago, MIm20c said:

People are always going to recommend what they have in their plane, especially on this site.

How else are they going to make a recommendation?  

That’s the kind of recommendations I’m looking for…. First hand.

 

Of course there are the panels that don’t generate much of a recommendation…. Like a pair of KX155s and a KLN90B… 

It was hot pre-WAAS in the 90s!!!

Best regards,

-a-

[toto]

8 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

Maybe I'm contorting myself to feel better about not wanting to upsize a panel-mount GPS box (+$5,000?) and pay for additional subscriptions beyond the required nav data (+$500-1000/year?).

I don’t know if this helps, but the only required subscription is navdata for your GPS. For the Garmin panel mount boxes, this is $299/year. Really not too bad in the scheme of things. 

[toto]

5 hours ago, MIm20c said:

People are always going to recommend what they have in their plane, especially on this site.  I personally believe everything beyond a 430w is icing on the cake. However, a large pfd/mfd is nothing more than a large iPad screen.  Not to be confused with a primary navigator.  Entering things, navigating through the menus, and being able to see all the details with enough fov to be efficient is all easier on the larger screens. 

I have no personal experience with this system, but I’ve been watching their SmartPlane product develop because I think it’s interesting. It’s basically CarPlay for a plane. 

https://www.guardianavionics.com/smartplane-flight-data-mfd-system

[KSMooniac]

13 minutes ago, toto said:

I don’t know if this helps, but the only required subscription is navdata for your GPS. For the Garmin panel mount boxes, this is $299/year. Really not too bad in the scheme of things. 

Correct, except in my case it is x2 since I have 2 GNS boxes, minus a trivial discount for them being in the same panel.  If you have a PFD and/or MFD, then you get to pay more if you want to keep them current.  Garmin has a OnePak or something like that pretending to be a great value, but it is not at the bottom of the market where I am.  Jepp isn't any better really, but sometimes they give a free month or two at OSH when you sign up there.  My biggest beef is that the GPS nav data is really government generated data for the national airspace system that we pay for through our taxes.  Garmin and Jepp just administer it and collect a large fee.  I grew up flying with paper NACO plates that could be purchased for essentially the cost of printing & distribution since it was gov't data.  You had the option to purchase Jepp plates at much greater expense if you felt their format was worth a premium, but you were not forced to do so.  Many pilots felt it was worth it, and they sure grew a business out of it!  I just get gristled thinking about how much I've spent paying for gov't data twice just to legally fly in our IFR system.  

[toto]

36 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Correct, except in my case it is x2 since I have 2 GNS boxes, minus a trivial discount for them being in the same panel.  If you have a PFD and/or MFD, then you get to pay more if you want to keep them current.  Garmin has a OnePak or something like that pretending to be a great value, but it is not at the bottom of the market where I am.  Jepp isn't any better really, but sometimes they give a free month or two at OSH when you sign up there.  My biggest beef is that the GPS nav data is really government generated data for the national airspace system that we pay for through our taxes.  Garmin and Jepp just administer it and collect a large fee.  I grew up flying with paper NACO plates that could be purchased for essentially the cost of printing & distribution since it was gov't data.  You had the option to purchase Jepp plates at much greater expense if you felt their format was worth a premium, but you were not forced to do so.  Many pilots felt it was worth it, and they sure grew a business out of it!  I just get gristled thinking about how much I've spent paying for gov't data twice just to legally fly in our IFR system.  

Yeah, I would still say that $299 is your minimum annual fee to be legal, no matter how many boxes are in your panel. Navigate with your #1 GNS, which has the current navdata card, rotate the previous cycle to your #2 box. If you have an emergency, a 28-day old navdata card is not technically legal, but it’s the least of your concerns, and if you lose #1 in a low-stress scenario just swap the cards. 

A bundle is realistically $599, which does cover the Garmin Pilot upgrade too, so you may save a buck or two. But $299 is your minimum. 

I spent untold years of my life filing those obscene paper Jepp updates into leather binders, and I haven’t looked back since the moment I unboxed my first e-reader and loaded the government plates on it. I have a time capsule in a closet somewhere with the giant Jepp binders frozen to their last update

 

[carusoam]

Rainy days and filing Jepp plates go together…

Flight school blues…

-a-

[Pinecone]

16 hours ago, toto said:

Navigate with your #1 GNS, which has the current navdata card, rotate the previous cycle to your #2 box. If you have an emergency, a 28-day old navdata card is not technically legal, but it’s the least of your concerns, and if you lose #1 in a low-stress scenario just swap the cards. 

Can you actually do that?

I think the nav data is locked to the specific serial number.

I know when I switched my 650 to a 650Xi, the shop also changed my data subscription to the new GPS.

[KSMooniac]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Can you actually do that?

I think the nav data is locked to the specific serial number.

I know when I switched my 650 to a 650Xi, the shop also changed my data subscription to the new GPS.

It's not locked on the GNS series, but Garmin might have added that feature on later models... wouldn't surprise me a bit to ensure squeezing every bit of recurring revenue out of their customers.

[Pinecone]

They do have reduced rate packages when you have more than one box that needs the data.

Strange they would not lock it to the devices.  Otherwise you could share your subscription with everyone you know.

[MIm20c]

10 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

They do have reduced rate packages when you have more than one box that needs the data.

Strange they would not lock it to the devices.  Otherwise you could share your subscription with everyone you know.

The GTN units, both the original and xi, have the data locked to the box.  After you upload the card to the gps you can remove it and take it home.  It will not work in any other GTN unit. With the GNS units, that date back to 1998ish, you have one write cycle for each card. The card is required to remain in the gps for all flights. The data stays with the card and can be theoretically moved to another GNS box.  This allowed people to swap cards with other pilots or other GNS boxes in their panel if one month old data (free) was desired. 

[KSMooniac]

3 hours ago, MIm20c said:

The GTN units, both the original and xi, have the data locked to the box.  After you upload the card to the gps you can remove it and take it home.  It will not work in any other GTN unit. With the GNS units, that date back to 1998ish, you have one write cycle for each card. The card is required to remain in the gps for all flights. The data stays with the card and can be theoretically moved to another GNS box.  This allowed people to swap cards with other pilots or other GNS boxes in their panel if one month old data (free) was desired. 

Correct re: GNS units.  Data stays on the card, and you only get one write cycle in your Garmin or Jepp portal each month.  If you screw it up somehow, you can usually call tech support and get a write cycle added for another try.  The cards are also encrypted or copy-protected beyond basic computer user proficiency, so you cannot (to my knowledge) duplicate the data on several cards for your neighbors and share the cost of a subscription.  The license agreement that comes with access to the data & portals of course has strong language prohibiting such behavior too.  

My biggest beef after 16+ years of ownership now is the high cost of the basic navdata subscription that should be trivial to distribute to us.  Garmin and Jepp do not generate or maintain the data to the best of my knowledge, although they might have some quality control responsibilities to verify integrity each month.  This data should be closer to free than $300/yr IMO.  I'm all for Garmin, Jepp or others offering digital products above and beyond that database for extra cost, such as the Jepp plates, geo-ref plates, vector-based moving maps, etc.  Basic sectionals and IFR charts ought to be closer to free as well.  

[Pinecone]

23 hours ago, MIm20c said:

The GTN units, both the original and xi, have the data locked to the box.  After you upload the card to the gps you can remove it and take it home.  It will not work in any other GTN unit. With the GNS units, that date back to 1998ish, you have one write cycle for each card. The card is required to remain in the gps for all flights. The data stays with the card and can be theoretically moved to another GNS box.  This allowed people to swap cards with other pilots or other GNS boxes in their panel if one month old data (free) was desired. 

FYI, the GTN non-Xi require the card to stay in the box, as it contains the terrain data.  The Xi has more memory and you can remove the card.  

Thanks for the info on the GNS method.  IIRC, the GNS uses a special card?  I know my GTN-650 had a Garmin TSO card in it.  My Xi (swapped to newer box), uses any card, but I have a Flight Stream 510 in mine.

[StevenL757]

On 4/9/2023 at 8:45 AM, Pinecone said:

Currently I have an Aspen 1000 Pro with GTN-650Xi, GTX-345, G-5, King nav/com and KAP-150 autopilot.

I was planning on doing a major upgrade in a year or so to G3X, add a GTN-750Xi and GFC-500 autopilot.

But Aspen has some great deals for another week with trade in.  So it would be relatively cheap to change to an Aspen 2000 Pro Max setup, or even a 2500.

So Aspen upgrade now?  Or wait to do Garmin?

 

On 4/9/2023 at 9:22 PM, donkaye said:

Guess which route I would suggest?

Exactly.

[rondawes]

In a previous plane, I had an Aspen 2000 MAX system. I really liked having a full backup system available with the push of the Reversion button.

[Fly Boomer]

21 minutes ago, rondawes said:

In a previous plane, I had an Aspen 2000 MAX system. I really liked having a full backup system available with the push of the Reversion button.

Welcome to MooneySpace!  You waited a long time before posting.

[rbridges]

On 4/10/2023 at 8:58 AM, ArtVandelay said:

If you’re going to glass and having to cut new panels, it just makes cents to go all in, and then you’ll have a panel you won’t have to keep patching.
There’s overhead installing avionics (removing interior, access panels).
I’d (and I did) bite the bullet and get it fixed.
That doesn’t mean it has to be all Garmin, just that it’s the final solution, not a stop gap.

 

I have the 2500MAX system for that reason.  I was able to take small bites.  Also, the G3 system wasn't out when I started installing the Aspen panels.  If I was doing it all over, I would likely go Garmin, especially if I were getting a new AP.  I have an STEC which is working well, and I have to admit I've been very pleased with the Aspens.  

[glbtrottr]

My friend Don knows how I feel about this : every time you buy new Garmin, a kitten dies ….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pinecone]

5 hours ago, rbridges said:

 

I have the 2500MAX system for that reason.  I was able to take small bites.  Also, the G3 system wasn't out when I started installing the Aspen panels.  If I was doing it all over, I would likely go Garmin, especially if I were getting a new AP.  I have an STEC which is working well, and I have to admit I've been very pleased with the Aspens.  

That was my thought, but with shop schedules, you are looking at 8 months to get it in for the next bite.