Becoming a A+P mechanic

[redbaron1982]

Hi guys,

Since I bought my Mooney more than a year ago I was thinking on getting a A+P mechanic license to do some repairs myself (mainly avionics and power plant). I'm quite confident that both the knowledge and practical exam, with some learning, and my experience as a hands on engineer, I could pass without much hurdle.

My main doubt is about the experience that is required, seems very hard to get that experience if you're not working full time as a mechanic. Am I reading the regs correctly? Do I need to work full time as a mechanic for 18 months to meet the experience requirements?

I know there are many owners that are also A+P mechanics, without working full time as a mechanic. How did you guys go the license?

[67 m20F chump]

I started keeping a log book of work I did under supervision of an A&P.  I haven’t updated it in a long time.  I’m thinking about building a Van’s.  I will take a lifetime logging the time for the A and then the P.  

[N201MKTurbo]

I got mine by experience. I had never worked full time or part time for that matter for a repair shop. I did hang out at the shops most evenings and weekends for years. 
 

When I went to get the license in 2005, I printed up letters of recommendation that only needed the times filled in. I sent them to all the mechanics I had ever worked with. I included self addressed and stamped return envelopes for the letters. All they had to do was sign them and put them in the mail box.  Unfortunately, they all gave me 30 months. It would have looked more legit if they would have given me less. I legitimately had way more than 30 months, but not with any individual. I choose the letter that was the most legit. I actually showed all the letters to the FAA inspector and told him the story, he was cool with the one. He said the only way they can dispute the letters of recommendation is to accuse somebody of perjury and refer it to the legal department. They really don’t want to do that.

The FAA really doesn’t want to give A&P licenses on experience and will try to get you on the interview. You better bring your A game to the interview. You should master the three written test preps before the interview! They have the discretion to deny your application if in their judgment, you don’t know the material. It was the oral from hell, he just opened the part 147 syllabus and quizzing me on every subject. It was obvious he wanted me to fail. After almost four hours he said he was hungry and needed to go to lunch and approved me to take the tests.

I found the tests easy, I got 96, 96 and 94. The 94 was on the general. To get those scores, you need to know the correct wrong answers. 
 

On the practical test, I could have easily finished it in one day, but the examiner made us quit at 1:00 because he said it was a two day test. The next day we finished by 9:00. 

 

[alextstone]

I bought the local maintenance shop and I work there as the apprentice mechanic.  At some point I will have the experience required.  I can tell you that I have been humbled by the depth of knowledge and skill that is required to do work at it's highest level.  Once I got a view from within, I threw all timelines out the window and decided to focus instead on really learning each skill that I was presented with the opportunity to learn.  Please PM me if you would like to chat

[RobertGary1]

The guy who runs the local community college AP school tells me I should track my time working on my plane. When I did the math it would take several lifetimes to get the time doing that. So I didn’t log the time 

[N201MKTurbo]

As part of the practical, I had to fill out a 337 for changing out a Cessna air filter with a Brackett filter. I spent almost 5 minutes filling it out. The examiner looked at it and said most applicants spend over two hours filling it out. I asked if there was anything wrong with mine? He said, “no, it’s prefect” 

All I wrote was “Removed air filter PN# xxxx and replaced with Brackett filter PN#xxxx IAW STC xxxx. W/B N/A”

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I got mine by experience. I had never worked full time or part time for that matter for a repair shop. I did hang out at the shops most evenings and weekends for years. 
 

When I went to get the license in 2005, I printed up letters of recommendation that only needed the times filled in. I sent them to all the mechanics I had ever worked with. I included self addressed and stamped return envelopes for the letters. All they had to do was sign them and put them in the mail box.  Unfortunately, they all gave me 30 months. It would have looked more legit if they would have given me less. I legitimately had way more than 30 months, but not with any individual. I choose the letter that was the most legit. I actually showed all the letters to the FAA inspector and told him the story, he was cool with the one. He said the only way they can dispute the letters of recommendation is to accuse somebody of perjury and refer it to the legal department. They really don’t want to do that.

The FAA really doesn’t want to give A&P licenses on experience and will try to get you on the interview. You better bring your A game to the interview. You should master the three written test preps before the interview! They have the discretion to deny your application if in their judgment, you don’t know the material. It was the oral from hell, he just opened the part 147 syllabus and quizzing me on every subject. It was obvious he wanted me to fail. After almost four hours he said he was hungry and needed to go to lunch and approved me to take the tests.

I found the tests easy, I got 96, 96 and 94. The 94 was on the general. To get those scores, you need to know the correct wrong answers. 
 

On the practical test, I could have easily finished it in one day, but the examiner made us quit at 1:00 because he said it was a two day test. The next day we finished by 9:00. 

 

That system sounds antiquated, leaving too much up to the discretion of the inspector. 

In Canada, you keep your task log book, your supervising AME, signs your log book when you can competently complete the task.  When you have the task log completed, and have your 7200 hours in you can challenge the exams, no personality contests involved.

More traditionally it involves two years of community college, for 18 month credit, followed by 30 month in a shop.  If you pass all college exams you get Transport Canada accreditation which waives writing all exams except Air regulations.

[redbaron1982]

11 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

That system sounds antiquated, leaving too much up to the discretion of the inspector. 

In Canada, you keep your task log book, your supervising AME, signs your log book when you can competently complete the task.  When you have the task log completed, and have your 7200 hours in you can challenge the exams, no personality contests involved.

More traditionally it involves two years of community college, for 18 month credit, followed by 30 month in a shop.  If you pass all college exams you get Transport Canada accreditation which waives writing all exams except Air regulations.

7200 Hours?! That's around 3.5 years working full time as a mechanic. It would be impossible for someone that is doing this as a hobby or for it's own personal aircraft.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, redbaron1982 said:

7200 Hours?! That's around 3.5 years working full time as a mechanic. It would be impossible for someone that is doing this as a hobby or for it's own personal aircraft.

Yes 7200, we don’t have a half way stop as an A&P.  Ours is equivalent to A&P IA on completion.  You either have a licence or you need someone who does.

[wombat]

I am planning on going to school for my A&P when I retire from my regular job.      Just a few more years.....

[A64Pilot]

I got my permission to test based on my Military MOS as an OH-58 helicopter mechanic.

‘Ref the written tests, I’ve taken many and the best way in my opinion is to take the study guides and ideally have someone else mark out the incorrect answers so they can’t be read. That way on test day the answer you remember seeing is the correct one, if you have seen the incorrect ones you may go for one.

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

Hi guys,

Since I bought my Mooney more than a year ago I was thinking on getting a A+P mechanic license to do some repairs myself (mainly avionics and power plant). I'm quite confident that both the knowledge and practical exam, with some learning, and my experience as a hands on engineer, I could pass without much hurdle.

My main doubt is about the experience that is required, seems very hard to get that experience if you're not working full time as a mechanic. Am I reading the regs correctly? Do I need to work full time as a mechanic for 18 months to meet the experience requirements?

I know there are many owners that are also A+P mechanics, without working full time as a mechanic. How did you guys go the license?

Note that the testing rules and requirements and methodologies have changed a few times over the years, including a recent change, so very few people have gone through in the current evolution of the testing methods.

I tested after they had changed to the current overall method (also common with DPEs) where the oral and practical exam items are selected automatically and are not at the discretion of the examiner.   There have been changes since then regarding topics, etc., to my understanding.

I went to A&P school after having been a pilot for forty years and an engineer for 35 and having wrenched on cars and race cars for essentially all of that.   Those don't prepare you for the A&P exams.   I'd also been sporadically wrenching on airplanes for some of that time, and that didn't really help much, either.

The main issue with the A&P exams is that they are very, very broad, and can go deep in any particular topic.   You can be tested on essentially anything aviation related, including helicopters, airliners, jets, turbines, pistons, radial engines, etc.   This includes all subsystems, like fuel, hydraulics, bleed air, air cycle machines, pressurization, fire detection and suppression, ice mitigation, wood and fabric, composites, etc., etc.    There's also an awful lot of education regarding regulations and requirements, methodologies (ADs, 337s, W&B, etc.).   It's kind of insane how broad the topics are.   In my orals I got asked to describe the operation of "spring tabs", something I'd never heard of, and it turns out was an obscure type of elevator trim used on a few airliner designs back in the day.   So I missed that one. 

That said, the written tests are like many federal government written exams in that there are a lot of study guides that will replicate the expected exam question pool, so if you're good at memorization and just rote studying, you can use things like Prepware or Quizlet and do reasonably well on the written exams.

The O&Ps are a different animal.   My experience was pretty grueling, which is a common assessment.   Our DME said there's a lot of variance in how hard the O&P exams are, and you're just at the mercy of what the computer spits out for your particular exams.  

I have a friend who is a long time pilot and long-time owner of multiple experimental airplanes, mostly warbirds of one flavor or other, who is currently going through the process based on his experience.   He's done two of the three writtens already just based on the study guides, so we'll see how the rest goes.   I suspect he'll be okay, but TBD.

I wanted to have half a chance of knowing what I was doing and went to A&P school for two years.   I'm really, really glad I did it that way, but obviously that's not always an option for people.   Many of the A&P schools have evening/night options for people who work during the day.   My day time class had a few people who worked full time on graveyards, or whatever, and they made it through.  If you can manage to go to a school, I'd recommend it.

Edit:   If you know everything in these texts, you'll probably have a reasonable chance:  

FAA-8083-30A  AMT General Handbook

FAA-8083-31A AMT Airframe Handbook Vols 1 and 2

FAA-8083-32 AMT Powerplant Handbook Vols 1 and 2

They can be downloaded here:
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation

Edit #2, also AC 43-13 1B and 2B, which can also be downloaded. 

[redbaron1982]

18 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Note that the testing rules and requirements and methodologies have changed a few times over the years, including a recent change, so very few people have gone through in the current evolution of the testing methods.

I tested after they had changed to the current overall method (also common with DPEs) where the oral and practical exam items are selected automatically and are not at the discretion of the examiner.   There have been changes since then regarding topics, etc., to my understanding.

I went to A&P school after having been a pilot for forty years and an engineer for 35 and having wrenched on cars and race cars for essentially all of that.   Those don't prepare you for the A&P exams.   I'd also been sporadically wrenching on airplanes for some of that time, and that didn't really help much, either.

The main issue with the A&P exams is that they are very, very broad, and can go deep in any particular topic.   You can be tested on essentially anything aviation related, including helicopters, airliners, jets, turbines, pistons, radial engines, etc.   This includes all subsystems, like fuel, hydraulics, bleed air, air cycle machines, pressurization, etc., etc.    There's also an awful lot of education regarding regulations and requirements, methodologies (ADs, 337s, W&B, etc.).   It's kind of insane how broad the topics are.   In my orals I got asked to describe the operation of "spring tabs", something I'd never heard of, and it turns out was an obscure type of elevator trim used on a few airliner designs back in the day.   So I missed that one. 

That said, the written tests are like many federal government written exams in that there are a lot of study guides that will replicate the expected exam question pool, so if you're good at memorization and just rote studying, you can use things like Prepware or Quizlet and do reasonably well on the written exams.

The O&Ps are a different animal.   My experience was pretty grueling, which is a common assessment.   Our DME said there's a lot of variance in how hard the O&P exams are, and you're just at the mercy of what the computer spits out for your particular exams.  

I have a friend who is a long time pilot and long-time owner of multiple experimental airplanes, mostly warbirds of one flavor or other, who is currently going through the process based on his experience.   He's done two of the three writtens already just based on the study guides, so we'll see how the rest goes.   I suspect he'll be okay, but TBD.

I wanted to have half a chance of knowing what I was doing and went to A&P school for two years.   I'm really, really glad I did it that way, but obviously that's not always an option for people.   Many of the A&P schools have evening/night options for people who work during the day.   My day time class had a few people who worked full time on graveyards, or whatever, and they made it through.  If you can manage to go to a school, I'd recommend it.

Edit:   If you know everything in these texts, you'll probably have a reasonable chance:  

FAA-8083-30A  AMT General Handbook

FAA-8083-31A AMT Airframe Handbook Vols 1 and 2

FAA-8083-32 AMT Powerplant Handbook Vols 1 and 2

They can be downloaded here:
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation

Edit #2, also AC 43-13 1B and 2B, which can also be downloaded. 

I have those books and I'm reading through them.

Again, I'm not concerned about knowledge tests, orals or practical tests. I'm not saying they are easy, I'm just saying that they are manageable. And also the AP schools are an option that I've considered.

But again, even after going through all that you need you 30 months of experience, which is what I see difficult to achieve.

[EricJ]

1 minute ago, redbaron1982 said:

I have those books and I'm reading through them.

Again, I'm not concerned about knowledge tests, orals or practical tests. I'm not saying they are easy, I'm just saying that they are manageable. And also the AP schools are an option that I've considered.

But again, even after going through all that you need you 30 months of experience, which is what I see difficult to achieve.

You don't need additional experience if you go to a school.   The school time counts toward the experience, and the schools are designed so that you have what you need when you graduate, including the authorizations to take the exams.

[redbaron1982]

14 minutes ago, EricJ said:

You don't need additional experience if you go to a school.   The school time counts toward the experience, and the schools are designed so that you have what you need when you graduate, including the authorizations to take the exams.

Oh, I didn't know that. I think I'll follow that path then.

[Wildhorsetrail]

Part 147 school is the fastest way. There are schools that do it in under 2 years, but very few. The disadvantage to the school is that you probably don't get as good hands on experience. The advantage is that that you learn some good theory and foundational instruction that you won't get hands on. The electrical theory portion is particularly valuable I think.

[toto]

TIL

https://www.flyingmag.com/the-path-to-ap-changes-to-far-part-147/

[OR75]

I did it by attending an evening A&P program in a community college. Part time . I was fortunate that the CC was close by.  Took me 5 years (skipped a few semesters) instead of the min of 2 but eventually done it. 

if you can only do you one of the 2 (A or P) do the A ... it allows you to do almost everything (not much you can do with a P really except you need it to eventually get an IA)

[Caz]

I can't add a whole lot more to this conversation except to say that I am one of those people that is currently working on completing a 147 school.  I currently have my A license and will complete the power plant portion of school in approximately 3 weeks.  Written test 2 days later (final exam for class on Monday, written exam on Wednesday, O&P interview the following Monday and O&P on that Thursday.)  I did this as a second career.  One thing that I did not see being brought up in this thread is the changes that will take place as of 31 July of this year.  No one really knows how it will affect things.  Some say it won't change a whole lot and others say it will change the testing significantly.

Here is what I do know.  Under the current 147 rules.  You must complete 1900 hrs of classroom/lab work.  The new system does away with the hr requirement as long as you complete the knowledge and skill requirements of the course.  That does not mean you don't have to take the course, it just means that under the current system you must have a certain number of hours to be given credit for taking the course. ( IE you cannot miss more than 10% of the classroom hours and still complete.)  The testing procedures are becoming more centralized.  Meaning the DME will have less discretion on what he asks during the O&P.  He will be given the questions to ask and the projects to be completed by the same organization that is administering the written exam.  Even though they are given both now, the way the tests are administered will be more rigid. Meaning the DME cannot cherry pick the questions to ask you out of the pool he is given.  He must ask them in the order they are given. That could mean that they will hit you with Oral questions and practical projects that you showed weaknesses on during the written.  It could mean didley squat.   They are adding Human Factors to almost all sections of the exams.   Think OSHA type things.  Apparently, all of this has been driven by commercial aviation wanting mechanics that are better prepared to enter the workforce in the commercial side of the industry.  The FAA has done what almost all government agencies do.  They have made it all clear as mud.  (Not a knock per se on the FAA,  it's just what bureaucracy does.)  

As for the experience route.  I have less than little knowledge of that route except to say that the FSDO has a lot of discretion on who can and cannot test.  A favorite saying of some friends of mine.  If you go to the FSDO and ask 5 people you will get 7 different answers.  If you go to a second FSDO you might increase that to 10.

The experience requirements of 30 months may or may not be accurate.  For instance if the guy in your FSDO wants you to have experience performing field overhauls on reciprocating engines and you have never cracked the case on one but have replaced the cylinders, he could conceivably say you don't meet the requirements.  Or maybe you have never worked on a Turbine engine.  Again, he can say you don't meet the requirements.   

 

My opinion is that 147 is the way to go if you can do that.  It takes approximately 18-21 months depending on the school.  Mine has taken approximately 21 months because it is a college and therefore follows the college schedule.  Meaning we took a fall break, Thanksgiving, a month at Christmas, spring break, so on and so forth.  We go to school 6 hours a day 5 days a week.  Cost is no bad but could be outrageous depending again on the program.

 

Hope some this helped.  

 

 

 

[0TreeLemur]

13 minutes ago, Caz said:

We go to school 6 hours a day 5 days a week.

That's a commitment.  Good on ya.

[carusoam]

Do It!

So many details to learn, know, and demonstrate… and remember!!!

A great set of skills to have…

The mechanics at work may even have more respect for you as an engineer…

 

The number of hours required…. A lifetime of owner assisted annuals… of your plane, your dad’s plane, and your son’s plane…

 

Let’s invite Paul to the conversation… @kortopates He may be familiar with teaching…

PP thoughts only, still not a mechanic….

Best regards,

-a-

[0TreeLemur]

12 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Do It!

I've been thinking about it for years.   I read a recent Flying magazine article that said one of the reasons for the new standards is that it anticipates some online or computer-based training.  That might bring about big changes.  Going to school 6 hours a day for at least 18 months just doesn't sound like any fun.   Working with a local A&P shop and doing only course modules might be doable.

[redbaron1982]

13 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

I've been thinking about it for years.   I read a recent Flying magazine article that said one of the reasons for the new standards is that it anticipates some online or computer-based training.  That might bring about big changes.  Going to school 6 hours a day for at least 18 months just doesn't sound like any fun.   Working with a local A&P shop and doing only course modules might be doable.

Yes, I agree that 6 hours per day for 18 months is quite impossible if already working an 8 hours job and having a family.

I think for now I will continue reading the FAA books and try to get a mechanic that's ok with me helping in the repairs.

Hopefully in the near future we have hybrid courses, where the classroom can be done online at your own pace and exams and practice can be done in person.

[wombat]

Some sample A&P schools...

https://www.bigbend.edu/academics/aviation-maintenance-technology/

https://scc.spokane.edu/What-to-Study/Hands-on-Building-Trades/Aviation-Maintenance-Technology

 

If things went perfectly my way, I'd do a couple of online courses for a few terms while I keep working my job and then pick and choose courses based on schedule like having one really busy day then a day off, so I can go home.

Things never go that smoothly, but I can try to get things as close as I can.

[carusoam]

1 hour ago, 0TreeLemur said:

I've been thinking about it for years.   I read a recent Flying magazine article that said one of the reasons for the new standards is that it anticipates some online or computer-based training.  That might bring about big changes.  Going to school 6 hours a day for at least 18 months just doesn't sound like any fun.   Working with a local A&P shop and doing only course modules might be doable.

Mechanics are in short supply…

We could use a new Basic Mech… a rating that comes with a few limitations… 

This would help out the industry…

This would allow us to really know Mooneys, Lycomings, and Continentals… work specifically on our own Mooneys…

But not have to learn/demonstrate things we have no intention of ever touching… like somebody else’s helicopter…. Or a school’s turbine engine…

 

I may have to re-think this when my current Mooney gets re-fitted for its new turbine engine at the factory…. 

I’ll be there for the installation… but there won’t be enough hours with that project either…

 

PP futuristic thoughts only, the turbine Mooney has been on hold for a long time….

Best regards,

-a-